tebriz
Warlord
Just a suggestion come to my mind - what about +5% and +1 research per city?
Realism Invictus
- Thread starter Walter Hawkwood
- Start date
Alekseyev_
Prince
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2014
- Messages
- 306
I think the main problem is that a high number is too good early on, and a low number becomes totally meaningless later on. If the bonus could be made to scale multiplicatively (like the raw commerce from fin/hum does), it would remain impactful throughout the entire game. But the additive +5% gets reduced to an effective 4% over other civs when libraries get built, and it only gets worse later. With a monastery, university and observatory, it goes to 3.03%. Add an academy and a 40% great science work and you are at 1.81% for that city (which is likely your best science city where you'd like an effective 5% the most).
Now of course progressive has the upgrade cost bonus, but financial has the option to use its commerce for any or the 4 commerce types (and is better at research than progressive too, not just in raw numbers but also in scaling across the game). So if it's in any way possible to make the research bonus scale multiplicatively, that might be a good first step. Having a flat +1 research added to scientists and every science building might also be a good way to have progressive scale better. (And buffed specialists have precedence in industrious craftsmen, whose bonus is arguably even better.)
Now of course progressive has the upgrade cost bonus, but financial has the option to use its commerce for any or the 4 commerce types (and is better at research than progressive too, not just in raw numbers but also in scaling across the game). So if it's in any way possible to make the research bonus scale multiplicatively, that might be a good first step. Having a flat +1 research added to scientists and every science building might also be a good way to have progressive scale better. (And buffed specialists have precedence in industrious craftsmen, whose bonus is arguably even better.)
Good point, I didn't consider that.
Still kind'a shabby.
In my experience it's the opposite. Even high numbers are meaningless early on because shaving off 1 turn per tech isn't solving any of your problems. So much of your economy in the early game goes to maintaining an army and paying maintenance that the leftover research is typically pretty low in quantity, so even a 10 or 15% boost doesn't contribute much to your bottom line.
But later in the game, you can have a wealth of cities and population in those cities generating commerce, and 3-5 trade routes in each of those cities, and settled scientists, and more, so even a measly 5% can make a big difference. Part of that is that you also have an industrious nation to immediately make good on any completed research as soon as you research it. Unlocked riflemen? Great, you can get 10-15 cities each producing one right away. Unlocked axemen? Cool, you have 4 cities in total, and enough gold production to support 3 axemen before you tank your economy.
Maybe 5% is the right number, but the trait can use some other bonus to flesh itself out. Maybe progressive leaders can build up to 6 storyteller circles instead of 3, providing more raw beakers very early in the game, but still requiring you to unlock the storyteller circle and having enough cities to capitalize on them. As the game goes on this bonus becomes obsolete while the 5% research starts kicking in more meaningfully.
Funnily enough, when I was testing it out yesterday, the city was correctly generating 9.45 research per turn, but monitoring my current research, I was actually getting 12 research points per turn. So it lies a little bit.
I remember there being an explanation for this somewhere in the thread so it wasn't too much a surprise, but it did make it difficult to analyze my true research production and the value of that 5%.Spent some time today testing the crash to desktop when exiting to main menu in SVN games. I was able to regularly exit to main menu on revision 5487, but it would crash on 5488. After more granular testing the culprit seemed to be `Assets/Art/Movies/Greenwich.dds`. If I removed that file on 5488, I was able to exit to the main menu without a crash. Loading up the current SVN version and removing the file wasn't enough, though, and the game still crashes, so there might be more to it.
Would anyone else happen to have some time to replicate the test on their local environment, and see if removing that file makes a difference on revision 5488?
Would anyone else happen to have some time to replicate the test on their local environment, and see if removing that file makes a difference on revision 5488?
You can read through the SVN changes here:
Realism: Invictus / Code Commit Log
sourceforge.net
In this case, in revision 5499, we have:
What’s still missing for me is a true form of separatism, where conquered cities can remain a thorn in the side of their new owner for at least a couple of centuries — even if the original civilization no longer exists — and that they can periodically rebel, with a rebel army led by a general (a rebellion leader). It would also be great to make spy infiltrations easier in such unstable cities."
The SVN changelog sure makes for interesting reading.
Question: is Monarchy a requirement to just build it, or also to keep it active? I'm assuming it's the latter.
WOW! Suddenly Himeji Castle is THE wonder for world domination!
Question: is Monarchy a requirement to just build it, or also to keep it active? I'm assuming it's the latter.
Takofloppa
Capybara
Not sure about it, from a purely gameplay perspective, wouldn't it become quickly annoying? The current way separatism is done can be handled with a relatively small amount of work and is not super distracting unless something seriously went wrong, but I can't imagine myself constantly going after rebelling armies. Even normal slaves are sometimes irritating me, but let's say it's on an acceptable level.
Walter Hawkwood
RI Curator
As a counterpoint, the research bonus is always active; it's something you get from turn 1 no matter what, whereas the yield bonuses such as Financial's need both time and investment to kick in. +1 research to scientists or a bonus to tech transfer aren't out of question, though.
It's likely not that specific file even in your case; I bet if you delete any other dds from the same folder (they are all the same size), you'll get the same effect. I am pretty sure it is the total asset size that's relevant. That particular file isn't even referenced in any XML in the SVN version so it isn't explicitly loaded by the game!
Won't be doing that.
The latter, same as Magna Carta was.
Bah, you've said that before. Sorry for not listening. But you're right. I went ahead and removed all the dds files in the
Assets/Art/Movies and the problem went away. I have movies disabled anyway, so unless some of them are pulled in or are still referenced by the code in a necessary way, the problem should be gone for good. No more crashes. Tagging @AspiringScholar since he's mentioned having the problem before too.
Walter Hawkwood
RI Curator
Those in the subfolders weren't removed, so all's well. Thanks for the idea to remove any other dds file in that folder. Avoiding that crash makes the game immensely more approachable to me.
I created it myself. Basically, when a city is conquered, it generates a building that I will call the separatist cell. This cell will be present in the city for 100 turns and, besides creating penalties to culture, technology, and economy, it will spawn groups of separatists led by a great rebel general. Now I just need to figure out under what conditions to make them generate. The idea is to limit aggressive civilizations that always end up prevailing. Currently, Civilization 4 works like this: whoever attacks first always wins. I want to change this axiom.
Sounds like what you want is to up the separatism from foreign culture in conquered cities, so that they're more likely to rebel and return to their original civ
The idea is to disable the current system and make separatism happen only when you've conquered foreign cities that want to return to their original homeland.And of course, there should be some kind of limitation for overly aggressive civilizations that wipe out every peaceful or less aggressive one within 500 turns.""In the last scenario, on Emperor level, Japan had conquered all of Asia by the year 1100. It had over 50 cities—maybe even more—8 vassal civilizations, and was first in culture and among the top three in technology. This completely ruined the game for me, making it feel meaningless. "I don't know if it's the right path, but I hope to make the games a bit less predictable.It's pointless to play 2200-turn games with 40 civilizations if after 500–1000 turns only 3 remain competitive, and the others are just zombie civilizations that survive only because they've capitulated or are vassals with 2 cities."
A civilization that aims to win by domination should be among the last in technology and culture; otherwise, civilizations that focus on those aspects have no way to be competitive.While this might not always be true in reality, it should be in the game. For example, in reality, the power of a civilization is not always tied to the number of inhabitants and therefore the number of troops.I will also add a progressive penalty, making new conquests a technological and commercial burden for at least 200 turns. It's like, absurdly, if you conquer Iraq tomorrow, in 20 turns it becomes a technological or commercial hub. In reality, maintaining such a conquest should be just a waste of resources—like the war in Vietnam, to put it simply."Also, besides making some buildings only buildable if you have many cities, there should be the opposite: some buildings can only be constructed if you have few cities. For example, if you have few cities, you could build more powerful troops or buildings that grant greater defense or technology bonuses. Currently, a sort of penalty exists, but it’s not enough.Introducing buildings or bonuses reserved for those with few cities is a smart way to balance the game and offer different strategies.For example, the possibility to adopt certain forms of government could be blocked if you declare war too often.""Simple changes would be enough to make a huge difference.Cities conquered purely for tactical reasons—like buffer cities—shouldn't become an immediate advantage. On the contrary, they should represent an economic, social, and administrative burden for a long time.
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AspiringScholar
King
I've been meaning to catch back up here meaningfully, and thanks for tagging me with this. Lots of changes going on (fortunately, nearly all positive!) at work and in my personal life and I haven't set aside much time for the game and discussion here, but I've been lurking along somewhat. I had had crashes like that from time to time, though it's only really a nuisance when trying to roll a map I like or when switching civs after changing my mind about who I wanted to be. I never save-scum though or even check WorldBuilder once I've actually begun a game, however, so once it is rolling, I've always saved when trying to exit to the main menu and only do so when I'm done playing for the day anyway.
Alekseyev_
Prince
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2014
- Messages
- 306
Yeah, that is true. In particularly in RI, the +1 commerce from FIN is (thankfully!) harder to activate than in vanilla, so you'll either have to get a couple cottages and work them, have some plantation resources or get the colossus (it's insanely good for FIN).
I tried a casual random map game with switchable leaders until late classical as Dravidia, and 1 turn before the middle ages I saved so I could go for the financial, humanist and progressive leader each after the tech completion. (I think it might be the only civ that has all 3 of these traits separate without a counteracting negative trait on those leaders, e.g. isolationist.) Also deliberately did not go for colossus since it'd skew the results.
I did not build for any particular strategy and at this point had basically no hamlets or villages, just casually cruising along unfocused.
None of those traits: 402 research/turn
Progressive: 414 research/turn
Financial and humanist: both 425 research/turn
(All at 100% research spending for the comparison, every other fraction favours the non-progressive results in comparison)
This definitely raised my opinion of humanist, since it works from turn 1 and outperforms progressive and can for the early game keep up with financial, but I also know that had I played for the financial trait from the start I'd have a lot more money tiles and probably more income as well.
Will Himeji castle be disabled in "no vassal state" games?
Also, while the heraldic chamber was a meme and won't be missed, I personally will definitely miss the fortified keeps and constables! I personally really liked how the feudal aristocracy gets a few small buffs as you progress through the middle ages, and I can attest that I've once gone for feudal aristocracy + monarchy specifically for fortified keeps and feudal land tenure, as I was in a really tough war with my neighbour and needed all the city defence I could get. In general I really like those double-civic national buildings, like feudal land tenure and enlightened absolutism.
Although, now with constitutional monarchy, there really is no point for a mid-late game autocracy at all. (I thought that the distinction between "autocracy" and "monarchy" was that already, that "autocracy" is an absolute monarchy while "monarchy" is more a constitutional monarchy.)
Lovely comparison. Do you still have the save? I'd love to see how the numbers line up if you pick the Seafarer trait, which Dravidia does have. From you mention of Colossus skewing results, it seems like there are at least a few coastal cities, and I can see the extra trade route from those cities giving even more of a boost than Humanist's gold-per-city.
I'd be curious to see how things compare in later phases, too. As the game goes on and you get more riches, more and more of the income pie can go towards research, improving its value. Maybe it's never as good as the other traits, but if it does start to outshine them at some point, it would be interesting to know where it overtakes them.
I created my own separatist script in Python — it took me two days to get it just the way I wanted. When a city is conquered, a separatist cell is created within it. Every 20 turns, there's a 50% chance that this cell will generate a number of rebel units, with the amount scaled according to the current era.
The separatist cell also imposes penalties on the city: -50% to science, culture, and production. It lasts for 200 turns, after which the city will no longer suffer penalties or spawn rebels.
The rebels are led by a rebellion general and belong to the original civilization. Their uprising automatically triggers a war between the rebels (aligned with their original civ) and the occupying civ. I think it's more realistic that an occupied civilization would focus entirely on freeing itself, rather than wasting efforts on other wars.
The script is lightweight, fully modular, and does not require enabling anything in PythonCallbackDefines.
The separatist cell also imposes penalties on the city: -50% to science, culture, and production. It lasts for 200 turns, after which the city will no longer suffer penalties or spawn rebels.
The rebels are led by a rebellion general and belong to the original civilization. Their uprising automatically triggers a war between the rebels (aligned with their original civ) and the occupying civ. I think it's more realistic that an occupied civilization would focus entirely on freeing itself, rather than wasting efforts on other wars.
The script is lightweight, fully modular, and does not require enabling anything in PythonCallbackDefines.
