realistic railways?

Totally agree with Beverage about bombardments destorying all enhancements on a square (if successful). That would go a very little way to solving the Railroad problem.

Also, the later sea units, those after the Caravel, should simply be faster. Maybe twice teh speed for the Frigate and others, maybe two and a half or three times the speed for destroyers, battleships, aircraft carriers, subs, nuke subs, AEGIS Cruisers, Transports.

I quite like Beverage's idea of linking infinite movement on railways to a railway station improvement. Movement could then be linked to the cities cultural area. But I see problems to this approach:

1. It would be difficult to display those RRs that were or were not connected to a station improvement on the map.

2. Would the player be able to use RRs outside of their territory but outside another players, that is, in no mans land?

In all I think the game would be worse without unlimited movement on RR and better with enhanced movement for sea units (in the later ages). Bombardment and pillage destroying all enhancements on a square would also be an improvement in my opinion. Also, plane bombardments should be made more powerful. Often my bombers can attack 20 times in a turn and get only 2 or 3 successful destructions.
 
I think a very conservative and easy to implement fix would be to just make it so you could not build railroad and irrigation/mine on the same tile, i.e. you could only choose one of them like it's now with mine and irrigation. Plus railroads wouldn't give you any tile bonuses, just movement.

You want a good railroad network so your units can move anywhere? Go ahead, but the price is no mines and no irrigation making your cities less productive. You want big productive cities? Then mine and irrigate tiles and have only a few railroad lines connecting your cities making your rail network more vulnerable.

That would IMO create a good strategic challenge where the player would have to balance his troop movement needs against his production.

And before Lord Beverage shoots me down :) I admit that in real world plenty of railroads have farmland beside them. I'm just seeking to find a good game balance here...

Or if you think that having no irrigation/mines is too drastic then how about adding a second level to the mine/irrigate improvements? I.e. you could (with some tech) "double irrigate" a tile but this advanced farmland would NOT allow a railroad (and same with mines). Then your choice is: even more food/shields or better movement.

Of course, the BEST solution would be to just open the whole darned thing in the editor and let everyone set the railroad movement rates, bonuses, possible penalties, whether they can coexist with other improvements or not, etc. to whatever each of us prefers with the AI adjusting its strategies as necessary... :)
 
From the discussion so far I think we have three separate issues here:

1 Appearances - Many think RR are a bit ugly. This should be easily solved with a graphics mod, right?

2 Proportions Air-Sea-Land travel vs the time scale - here we have major problems today. Naval travel is to weak in the current game. It is greatly missing in the ancient era, and quite poor in the industrial & modern eras. Heck, naval travel was the fastest method of travel from ancient times until RR, and a big competitor to RR to this day! And Rome conquered the Cartaghinians & Greeks (across the sea) before they conquered the Gauls (across land).
And we have to remember the different time scales between "build time" and "war time" - a lot of people say "hey, you can travel from LA to NY by rail in just a few days". But remember, Ceasar conquered Gaul, beat up the germans a bit, built some ships and made a naval landing in southern britain, and marched back to Rome in just a few years... So if we alow instant RR travel, we need to give the Legionaires a move of... 20? and Blitz? ;)

3a Strategic options: Military & Production/trade - I can accept RR all over the map - you build road everywhere, so why not RR?
I'd like so separate RR (instant teleport between cities & colonies) and Highways/superhighways (faster roads). "Instant teleport over the entire map" is not a strategic challenge! It's just a no-brainer.
Production/trade: This is where Pembroke (and I!) want more complexity and options in the late game. RR should increase production as it does in the game currently (or rather it decreases waste in resource gathering, but the effect is the same. IRL RR lead to massive increases in productivity). An extra level of farming/mining would be nice on top of that.
In the beginning of the game, workers have a lot to do - road, mining and irrigation, but in modern times, there's just... RR.


(edited for spelling and general stupidity)
 
I agree with you Pembroke. Gameplay is more important than realism. And the developers agree with this statement mostly if you look more closely at the way some things were implemented in the game. If you think railroads are realistic because one can move everywhere in one turn in the real world using railroads then consider the following:

1) Movement rates of units stay the same while the passage of time becomes slower (50 years per turn in the beginning, 1 year in the end). Totally unrealistic, but good for gameplay.
2) An ancient age unit in the game can only move 1 tile (10 miles or something like that) in 50 years. Totally unrealistic, but good for gameplay.
3) The militairy buildup for an ancient age war takes something like 1000 years and the actual war (if you go for total destuction of the enemy civilization and not just a few cities) takes even longer than that. It takes a few hundred years to move your units close to a city. If you use catapults then you're bombarding them for 50 or 100 years (one or two turns) and then you attack this city. Repeat this few hundred years conquest for the next city. Totally unrealistic, but good for gameplay.
4) In the middelages/renaissance the same lengthy movements and warfare hold, except everything is divided by 5 or 10 or so.
5) If you transport units, using an airport it takes one full turn (depending on how good you played this is 10, 5, 2 or 1 year). Totally unrealistic, but good for gameplay.
6) On a huge world ships take 20+ turns to sail around the world. The start of an exploration of America and the arrival of the ships would take something like 5 turns. If we assume that the game then uses the 10 years a turn, this is the equivalent of 50 years. The people on board would have died of old age before they reached America. :D
A modern aegis cruiser would take 20 turns a 1 or 2 years (or 5 years) a turn to go around the world. Totally unrealistic, but good for gameplay.

More examples of unrealistically slow movements can easily be found in the game.

Why did they make units so slow? The answer is simple. They wanted interesting gameplay.

To have an interesting representation of the buildup of cities and the growth of population, the accumalation of knowledge and the spread of civilization, time has to go slow. If a turn would represent one day or something like that, then there would almost be no difference in the size of the population, the buildings present in a city, the level of scientific knowledge and the spread of civilization.

To have an interesting representation of warfare, units need to have a limited movement rate. So time has to go slow. Say 1 week in the ancient age and 1 hour in the modern age. Then a realistic representation of warfare would be possible and movement rates of units as they are in the game would be realistic. But the growth of one population point would have to take thousends to hundredthousends of turns. Not very interesting gameplay.

The developers of the game must have long thought about this problem and than they decided that it was more important that the buildup of cities and the spread of civilization happened at a realistic pace. But they also wanted some interesting warfare in the game, so they plugged in units with movement rates that were interesting if you want to have a chalenging tactical combat. But these movement rates were of course totally unrealistic, if you look at the timescale. This way we got Civilization 1, and we all loved it :love:

None of the civilization - like games ever changed this.

The movement of units on railroads is unrealistically fast if you compare it to the movement rates of other units and more importantly even, the interesting tactical combat is partially lost. You don't have to think about troop placement. Artillery from everywhere on your body of land can attack the enemy, while planes cannot (they have to be rebased, if they're not close). Tanks and infantry from everywhere on your body of land can attack the invaders, while ships can only just leave port and begin their lengthy voyage to the enemy. The zero reaction time of your land-based army removes a lot of tactical decisions and is not comparable to the few turns reaction time of the navy and airforce.

If the Germans in WOII would have had infinite movement railroads, then their whole army form the east front could attack the D-Day invasion, beat it completely and move back to the east front in time to stop the Russians.
In the real world, the Germans had to make a tactical decission where to place their units. Because they guessed the location of the allied invasion wrongly, this invasion succeeded.

Troop placement is important in the real world and it should be important in the game, even after railroads are invented.

If you try to solve the difference in speed between land-based forces and navy by giving ships large movement rates (30+), then you'll remove some of the interesting tactical decissions from them too. And if you try to solve it for the airforce, then rebasing should not take a turn. This also removes some tactical decissions from those units.

I would like to limit the infinite movement rates of the railroads. Whether you do this by implementing railway stations (city building) that take one turn for units to rebase to, or by implementing a limited movement rate (like 1/6) is not that important to me. Because not everybody has the same ideas about this feature (railroads) of the game, I would love to have some editor options so that everybody can change it the way they like.

Sorry for the lengthy discussion of this feature.

Edit: Typing errors.
 
Iztvan, I think we agree. You wrote your statement while I was writing mine. I only used more words to say something similar :D
 
@Plug
I didn't say anything about a station improvement, in fact I would prefer that If something like my idea were implemented, there would be none, just the rail to ... (we'll just say that will include an appropriate station for the line) option, which would show up in both cities once complete and could not be built more than once for the same path. Perhaps a range limit would be in order as well, ie you could not build a line more than 4-6 tiles long: you would have to chain between cities. You could also build lines to cities in other civs, and through them you could reach more remote cities of your own.



Still, considering that my cities are never more than 4 squares apart, and the high movement and long bombard ranges of modern age units I still don't think that (at least for my gameplay style) that things would be any different tactically. Any invasion could be still be countered by any forces in any region of my empire. (That's on the same contintent, that is.)

I think allowing the bombardment of all improvements of a specific type would be the best option of them all.
 
if you build a rail road you loose the defensive bonus of the terrain you are in and you get a -25% defensive bonus as penality, and -1 gold for every rr you might have as mantenance cost, that would force you to build them only if= f extremely necesary, because 1) an invation and 2) they are expensive.
but with the invension of removable parts (?) road travel should be faster, beacause of the invention of cars.
 
...and -1 gold for every rr you might have as mantenance cost...

I don't think railroads should have a permanent cost, just for beeing there. It transports humans and goods and people pay for that.
You should only pay if you are transporting units.
Now you might say: When I'm in war I don't pay railroad companies if I need my units transported in an emergency cituation.
Well, yes, I wouldn't either.
But as soon as you start transporting soldiers and tanks on railroads in larger scales you cannot transport your civilists and goods anymore. No workers, no goods, well, your industries would take severe damage. Not to speak about all the angry (unhappy) people, who aren't able anymore to visit their relatives, friends, etc.
So the cost for transporting units would not represent money given to a railroad company. It would represent the damage your economy takes by blocking civil with military logistics.

But honestly, I would already be happy if in a future Civ version railroads would be restricted somehow.

@ Roland & Pembroke: nice posts about gameplay and realism :) Saved me some typing!

@ Iztvan:about railroads everywhere: I don't like it everywhere. I think Pembroke has a good point with the strategy (and fun) part here.
 
the civilians are already unhappy because of war and when you send your troops the trains goes back to bring more troops and allong with the train goes civilians go
 
@Beverage

You did say something about a railway station improvement. But I accept that thiswas a compromise position. Although I think it is one of the better positions because it involves infinite movement on RRs and restricted use of RRs.

"An interesting compromise I would perhaps be willing to make would be to give a railroad station a certain radius around the city in which railroads would give you infinite mobility. Otherwise perhaps a 1/5 to 1/8 ratio might be in order. Of course this would just add more tedium, which I think the game has a bit to much of."
 
treat RR stations like airports. you can transport units to another RR station you are connected too via RR, but thats the end of that unit's turn. otherwise, RR are 2x or 3x the speed of roads. keeps movement simply plus gives a maint cost for the RR station.
 
i still want them to cost 1 gold per turn, because even if they were to take longer to be build, biuld them every where is still the best stragety(? did I spell it right)
 
i agree. you should also be able to upgrade your railroads to Paved Roads after Moterized Transport.
________
Infomedia Ltd
 
Originally posted by alpha wolf 64
do the math on each RR costing 1 gpt. The ai already broke most of the time. you'd have to totally revamp the economic system in order support RRs.

Doesn't mean it couldn't be done. :)

However, the editor setting could be the other way round: 1 gold per X railroad tiles per turn. Setting X=0 would give you a no-cost railroad (=like now) and be the basic game setting. Having a maintenance cost of 1 gpt for 5 or 10 railroad tiles seems reasonable to me. And if someone _wants_ a tough world with 1 gpt per 1 RR then why not?

What needs to be revamped is the AI! If I can squeeze out a 1000 gpt income with cash reserves in the thousands then why can't the AI? :)

Ok, that's not entirely fair. I do realize that making a computer player that can come up with moves that at least seem intelligent is hard. But at least it shouldn't be impossible to make the AI put more resources into accumulating gold and to understand the usage of cash reserves and periodical deficit spending.

Currently the AI seems to use its entire available budget in maintaining a big military. Presumably this is so it can balance its inability to use good military strategies with simple brute force. The price for that is its bankrupted treasury. Improve the AI military planning and it can survive with less troops and that will leave it a more balanced budget.
 
i like your idea. i might have to try that. I also hate that the ai doesnt understand a strategic resource. the ai is the any gov, have it, waste it....LOL then get killed because you dont have any left when you need it.
 
Maybe a solution is to allow ALL civs the ability to use ALL RRs, no matter whose territory that RR is in. I think that Germany could use the RRs of neighbouring countries in WW2 because they copied those nations RR gauge when building their own network.

If all civs could use RRs then players would have to use them more strategically. RRs could still give gold and mineral bonuses but a farmland tile improvement could be introduced for updating irrigation.
 
Maybe somehow they can make a way to say select one city and then connect a railroad to another city using the least amount of track possible. Maybe limit each city having up to four rail links to connect to other cities in the straighest and most organized way possible. Basically hit a button that will connect city A to city B and then after a number of turns the railroad is complete. Wow, Dang Railroads.
 
didn't railroads in CIV 1 have a movement cost of 1/12th. I never understood why Firaxis changed it. Instead of RR's increasing food// production, Why not have new worker actions called advanced mines/farms. They would be built over existing farm/mines like RR's are built over roads. Late in the game I have so many workers doing nothing. This would keep the game from looking like a spider web. Besides, we don't build farm/mines the same way we did 1000 years ago.
 
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