Really Hope There's an Undo Button in Civ7

Again, if Firaxis adds a game mechanic as accessible as a potential undo button, it's only expected people will use it to its full possibilities like any other game mechanic ever added in this game.
I've used the abundant resources example before in a different context. But by your logic, only a fringe amount of the player base uses standard resources, because if the option to use abundant exists, then it must mean most people will use it.
 
I've used the abundant resources example before in a different context. But by your logic, only a fringe amount of the player base uses standard resources, because if the option to use abundant exists, then it must mean most people will use it.
That's not the same though, because using abundant resources doesn't help the player. Everyone on the map has abundant resources.

Why does that matter at all to you?
It matters the same way anyone else can have an opinion on other people's suggestions. If you don't like what I've said, you can disagree! It doesn't have to be meant exclusively for you to disagree. Just like how I am allowed to disagree when someone suggests to add an undo button. :)
And just because someone disagree, does not mean there is personal intent. Let me make that clear.
 
t matters the same way anyone else can have an opinion on other people's suggestions. If you don't like what I've said, you can disagree! It doesn't have to be meant exclusively for you to disagree. Just like how I am allowed to disagree when someone suggests to add an undo button. :)
And just because someone disagree, does not mean there is personal intent. Let me make that clear.
Right, and I did not mean to accuse you of having personal intent. Let me explain myself more clearly hopefully:

Your answer to my question "Why is it bad if I use an undo button?" is, in so many words, "Because I said so."

Again, I don't think you're targeting anyone or trying to come off that way.

But, absent some reasonable and rational justification to oppose an optional setting that (1) you could easily ignore but (2) I could enjoy using without impacting you whatsoever, I can't think of any other distillation of your "because I said so" aversion other than you believe that you know better than me how I should enjoy playing the game. And at face value, I find caring about how another person plays a videogame to be ridiculous.
 
That's fair.

I believe my argument is more than just "I said so", and im not trying to have an authoritarian fist over other's gaming experiences, but, anything else I add now would just be rephrasing my prior messages, and I don't have the motivation to do that.

I don't think we can convince eachother any more than we already have, so I think it's better we leave it as this. :)
 
Again, if Firaxis adds a game mechanic as accessible as a potential undo button, it's only expected people will use it to its full possibilities like any other game mechanic ever added in this game.
That could also be understand as, everyone uses modes added by Fxs during NFP because they bring new mechanics that make game easier. I don't think this is the case though.
 
That's not the same though, because using abundant resources doesn't help the player. Everyone on the map has abundant resources.
Theoretically it should, but in practice it gives the player a much greater advantage, as resource management is just another thing the AI doesn't do as well as the human player.

And in any case, we have difficulty settings, which give an intended advantage to the player. So the question persists: why aren't more players playing Chieftain?

I think bottom line the only real difference between loading an autosave or having an undo button is the question "Can I be bothered to reload?" And whether you can be bothered to reload is likely dependent on how long it will take. In other words, having no undo button disproportionally affects players with lower specs.
 
None of this still answers the question of why it matters how other people play the game, something that has yet to be answered in this thread. Why does it matter so much how other people play the game? How does other people abusing an undo button effect your game? How could it possibly effect your game?

Many answers have been given in this thread. You just choose to not account for them or discard them because they do not matter to you. Namely: comparison, lack of same footing, over-rewarding of bold play, disminish the importance of scouting, play around the RNG and so on. That's how you end on sterile conversation when both side can't listen to other points of view because they neglect things that are important for other.

Just to be clear: I want the Undo button. I will probably use it sometimes when I missclicked or made stupid decision / forgot something due to fatigue. That would be my use. Yet, I want the game for every kind of players, not only for me or people as me. Some people do care about the Undo button would have a negative impact on the game: who am I to say their point of view should be ignored?

That's why I want to find a solution that could compromise every sides.
 
That's why I want to find a solution that could compromise every sides.
Not allow the undo button on Immortal or Deity difficulty? If you're playing those difficulties you're already looking for a more challenging experience.

Edit: maybe Emperor as well.

The other option is to not allow steam achievements.

I was not expecting an undo feature to actually be divisive, but since it is, and if a compromise is necessary, then I think any of those two solutions would work for me.
 
I hesitate to write this post, because I don't really care if there is an "Undo" button or not, nor if anyone else chooses to use it.

But I do think an "Undo" button will have a negative effect for the overall, aggregated game perception, no matter how it might be taken by individual players.

Because, as has been alluded to, there already is an "Undo" button- reload of the 1-turn autosave. Why don't people use this every turn? Because there is a *cost* to doing so, in your personal time and flow of the game. So in the gaming experience, making a "correct" decision (note the scare quotes) becomes more valuable, since going back to re-load has a significant cost attached to it. So for the generic individual player, there is an incentive to learn how to make a "correct" decision, or at least how to live with the decisions you make, to avoid this cost. For people concerned with immersive gameplay, this would seem to be important- after all, no one gets a do-over at history/destiny/what-have-you.

It is certainly true that an "Undo" button would facilitate the game play for a number of reasons, misclicks being the most obvious case. But to have this feature would remove the *cost* associated with making a "poor" decision on the part of some, and would remove at least some of the incentive to learn the game so as to avoid having to reload. I don't begrudge anyone that- Undo what ever you want! - it's no skin off my nose. But I do think it is true that for the casual or less attentive player, having this option will make the game, not less fun, but will give rise to the overall perception that the game is "easier" or not as much of a challenge. Again, I have no problem with any individual player using an "Undo" button or the reload feature if that enhances their experience, but I do think that inevitably it will lead to Civ as a game being perceived differently, not by CivFanatics, but by the wider gaming public.

So I think that Firaxis will make this decision purely on economical terms: do they think that most players regard Civ as too difficult, and that its complexity is a barrier to entry, so that they can entice more purchases by including an Undo button? Or are they concerned that offering this feature will dilute the reputation Civ has as a fun but complicated game that is challenging to master? They haven't added one through 6 iterations of Civ, so my money's on the latter, but I'm interested to learn that Old World (which I've never played) has this feature. I'd be curious how that affects people's perception of that game.
 
comparison
Only matters if you are playing game of the month or something. Most people don't and, again, you can turn undo off.

lack of same footing
Mods already negate this argument. Not to mention game rules and settings.

over-rewarding of bold play
Again, it doesn't effect other players' games.

diminish the importance of scouting
Again, it doesn't effect other players' games. Not to mention, not everyone has to like scouting or every core aspect of a game to enjoy playing a game.

play around the RNG
Again, it doesn't effect other players' games.

Like, these arguments are based on policing other people's game, which is no one else's business. Who cares how people play their own games?

That's why I want to find a solution that could compromise every sides.
There is no solution that everyone is going to find agreeable.
 
But I do think an "Undo" button will have a negative effect for the overall, aggregated game perception, no matter how it might be taken by individual players.

But I do think it is true that for the casual or less attentive player, having this option will make the game, not less fun, but will give rise to the overall perception that the game is "easier" or not as much of a challenge. Again, I have no problem with any individual player using an "Undo" button or the reload feature if that enhances their experience, but I do think that inevitably it will lead to Civ as a game being perceived differently, not by CivFanatics, but by the wider gaming public.
More supposition and conjecture with no proof. You can argue anything you want if you don't have to provide proof. I could argue that the addition of an undo button will encourage more people to try out the game out since it makes it easier to learn the game but that doesn't make it true.

I'd be curious how that affects people's perception of that game.
As someone who is a big fan of Old World, it is a better designed and harder game than Civ6, even with the undo button. In fact, one of the reasons why I think it is better because the undo button makes it easier to learn to play the game. Here is an article (best strategy game of 2021) by PC Gamer that makes the same point.
Simpler but just as welcome, you can undo any action you take, or an entire turn. It's great for fixing misclicks or silly mistakes, but it's also a boon for experimentation and learning the ropes.
The undo button also gets some praise in their review and they even have an article advocating for it more generally. I don't think the addition of an undo button is going to make people think less of any game that uses it.
 
I think there's some merit to the "aggregated game perception" argument made by Planktonic and already aluded to in this thread.

That's the argument used by FromSoftware to no include a difficulty setting in their games: adding such a setting changes the game to a greater extent than the gamedevs are willing to concede the player. But Dark Souls would no longer be Dark Souls if you had an "easy" setting. It's kind of its bread and butter. So I'm not sure how well this argument translates into other games, especially sandboxy experiences like Civilization.
 
So I'm not sure how well this argument translates into other games, especially sandboxy experiences like Civilization.
And at any rate, @InsidiousMage has pointed out, Civ is already filled to the brim with mechanisms to trivialize the game:

- mods
- debug console menu
- firetuner
- save sharing
- autosaves
- save editing
- rerolling

Even stuff directly baked into the game mechanics trivializes the game. Say you’re Mali and set the world to Hot to maximize your desert tiles at the expense of everyone other faction. Should I be concerned about how someone doing that somehow impacts perception of the game?

And guess what! Mods don’t even invalidate achievements! You can literally install a cheat mod to get 100,000 gold and immediately research all techs and civics on turn 1, and still unlock every achievement. Mods not blocking achievements is a first for a Civ game. Where was the moral panic then?

And again, Old World, a much less facile game than Civ 6, has an undo button and moral panic was somehow avoided. We have an actual blueprint and example of how it could easily work.

I really think if the devs implement it in Civ 7 no one would say anything except “oh cool” and go on about their day, the rumination in this thread notwithstanding.
 
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Just wanted to pop in and say I use the undo button in Old World.

Yes it's not for MP.

I used it occasionally when learning the game and it rapidly increased my understanding of mechanics and concepts.

I now barely use it except for misclicks or the occasional change of mind.

I haven't been enjoying it less, in fact the help it gave me early on led me to play higher difficulties now with bare use of it.

That's all. :)
 
That's the argument used by FromSoftware to no include a difficulty setting in their games: adding such a setting changes the game to a greater extent than the gamedevs are willing to concede the player. But Dark Souls would no longer be Dark Souls if you had an "easy" setting. It's kind of its bread and butter. So I'm not sure how well this argument translates into other games, especially sandboxy experiences like Civilization.
I don't think that really applies here. FromSoft games are known for their difficulty, Civ games aren't. You can go through the achievement completion rates on Steam, Prince (default) has twice the rate (30%) of King, the next one up. Emperor is only 10% and Deity 6%. Settler, Chieftain, and Warlord are 38%, 34%, and 33% respectively. Now, that's only completion so we don't know what most people end up playing on but Paradox has said that most players play on lower difficulties and I don't really see any reason why Civ would be any different. I seriously doubt a lot of people are playing Civ games for the challenge. There is obviously a subset of people who do play the game for a challenge but they are nowhere near the majority.

Even stuff directly baked into the game mechanics trivializes the game. Say you’re Mali and set the world to Hot to maximize your desert tiles at the expense of everyone other faction. Should I be concerned about how someone doing that somehow impacts perception of the game?
PotatoMcWhiskey actually put out a recent video that actually tells people what settings to use in order to increase your odds of getting a better starting location. The idea that an undo button somehow trivializes the game beyond what's already possible, again, feels like a parody of a moral panic.
 
Not allow the undo button on Immortal or Deity difficulty? If you're playing those difficulties you're already looking for a more challenging experience.
No, I believe most of those who are against the Undo button believe the battle is already lost. They know for sure it would be in the game in VII as it is already existing in some way VI with quick-save and reload. For them, they just want a somesort of recognition of having played the game the hard way, while letting people who want to use the feature even on Deity. That is why I wanted to display a counter on how many time the Undo button have been used, or even a shiny ribbon when none have been used, as it could answer the "comparison" argument. Pokiehl have a good idea by enabling or disabling the option at the start of the game. I see the Undo button as I see the Game Modes in VI: quite unbalanced (the AI cannot fully use them) but nice anyway.
 
No, I believe most of those who are against the Undo button believe the battle is already lost.
Unlikely. Autosave has been around since V (I never played IV so idk about that) and "skill camp" is still strong on the issue.
 
I hesitate to write this post, because I don't really care if there is an "Undo" button or not, nor if anyone else chooses to use it.

But I do think an "Undo" button will have a negative effect for the overall, aggregated game perception, no matter how it might be taken by individual players.

Because, as has been alluded to, there already is an "Undo" button- reload of the 1-turn autosave. Why don't people use this every turn? Because there is a *cost* to doing so, in your personal time and flow of the game. So in the gaming experience, making a "correct" decision (note the scare quotes) becomes more valuable, since going back to re-load has a significant cost attached to it. So for the generic individual player, there is an incentive to learn how to make a "correct" decision, or at least how to live with the decisions you make, to avoid this cost. For people concerned with immersive gameplay, this would seem to be important- after all, no one gets a do-over at history/destiny/what-have-you.

It is certainly true that an "Undo" button would facilitate the game play for a number of reasons, misclicks being the most obvious case. But to have this feature would remove the *cost* associated with making a "poor" decision on the part of some, and would remove at least some of the incentive to learn the game so as to avoid having to reload. I don't begrudge anyone that- Undo what ever you want! - it's no skin off my nose. But I do think it is true that for the casual or less attentive player, having this option will make the game, not less fun, but will give rise to the overall perception that the game is "easier" or not as much of a challenge. Again, I have no problem with any individual player using an "Undo" button or the reload feature if that enhances their experience, but I do think that inevitably it will lead to Civ as a game being perceived differently, not by CivFanatics, but by the wider gaming public.

So I think that Firaxis will make this decision purely on economical terms: do they think that most players regard Civ as too difficult, and that its complexity is a barrier to entry, so that they can entice more purchases by including an Undo button? Or are they concerned that offering this feature will dilute the reputation Civ has as a fun but complicated game that is challenging to master? They haven't added one through 6 iterations of Civ, so my money's on the latter, but I'm interested to learn that Old World (which I've never played) has this feature. I'd be curious how that affects people's perception of that game.

I know people who need to wait a long time to load the game. This counts for reloading as well. You assert that the value goes up so people concentrate more. I know people who still make the mistakes, but instead of reloading or using an undo button, they get frustrated because there is no simple way to fix an honest mistake (some even caused by bad UI!) and just quit the game because they are not enjoying it.

If the perception on the game changes to not as much of a challenge (which, come on...be serious, an undo button could do?), would that be bad? It would literally not take away any difficulty, it would add something easier. And no, that's not the same thing. People who would want to have the same difficult game with mistakes and not undoing them could have it.

To me this whole discussion is about eating with a fork instead of chopsticks when in a Japanese restaurant. Yeah, the latter might improve the immersion. Yeah, the latter might be intended. Yeah, the latter might more accepted by the people who frequent the restaurant more regularly. But if someone is not enjoying their meal too much with chopsticks and would enjoy the food much more with a fork, then who cares? I struggle with my chopsticks, I enjoy the experience, but I really don't have any difficulty choosing if someone gives me the option. I don't feel intimidated by the fork, nor do I think that "more people will start (ab)using the fork because it is handed to them".

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: it's an entertainment product. If this button helps the game to be entertaining to more people, I'm all for it. It literally doesn't take away, it just adds.
 
I've seen few posts saying the undo button would be on a long term bad for game's health. What I'm interested in is the source of the argument. Is there any data to back up this argument other than "I think?" I don't think there is any because we don't have a civ game with undo button that we could compare to a civ game without undo button. In my honest opinion the next civ game should have undo button atleast for the data.
If the undo button is proven to make the experiance worse, discard it.
If it's proven to enchanse the experiance, keep it.

Also, I've still not received a satisfying answer for the question I asked in my previous post: Why is undo button bad but autosaves are not? Essentially autosave is just a stronger version of undo button: undo an entire turn. Why is undoing an entire turn good, but undoing one action bad?
 
Just wanted to pop in and say I use the undo button in Old World.

Yes it's not for MP.

I used it occasionally when learning the game and it rapidly increased my understanding of mechanics and concepts.

I now barely use it except for misclicks or the occasional change of mind.

I haven't been enjoying it less, in fact the help it gave me early on led me to play higher difficulties now with bare use of it.

That's all. :)
Same here.
This button in OW saved hours of learning and improving. Although OW is more complicated than Civ 6, I've been reloading Civ IV so many times for misclicks that I've lost weeks of my life. And yet, I've almost never done it to rescout differently.
 
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