Realpolitik CIV - An Interactive AAR

[ilduce349]

The more we wait to do espionage the more expensive it will be

 

[ilduce349]

1) It can make it more expensive for the enemy to run espionage missions (passive and active) against us, but it will not prevent them from doing so.
2) We can simply focus EP on one civilization until we see their charts. We do get 4 EP from the Palace.
3) We need a lot of EP to steal anything worthwhile.
4) 500 EP assumes that the target is not spending any EP on us. As they spend EP on us, we have to spend much more to see their cities.
5) I assume you mean by starting a revolt in a city? This can be useful if you've forgotten to bring siege weapons, but it's really not a very effective use of commerce.
6) What do you mean, specifically? Destroying tile improvements? That's a nuisance. Poisoning Water/Fomenting Unhappiness? Likewise, a nuisance.

If you want to increase our EP output, I'd rather that we beeline Code of Laws, build Courthouses everywhere (they produce 2 EP each) and maybe even hire a few Spy Specialists (4 EP), even though that is sub-optimal. Basically, the problem I have with this is that 10% EP isn't enough to really be useful, but it diverts enough cash flow from research to slow us down.

I will admit that on a Noble game you can probably get away with this, but I would rather make a stronger play. You even say that it is generally better to put more money into science, so I do not understand why spending money on Espionage is seriously being considered.

If you want to see enemy cities, even building a Spy (and hoping it doesn't get caught) is probably a better investment of resources. You can also build and station spies in your cities to provide a bit of protection against enemy spy action.

Spy specialists are a better idea, but until we get those I would like the 10%

 

[Whosit]

Please remember that about mid-way through the tech tree, we gain access to a lot of buildings that produce more Espionage Points: Jails, Security Bureaus, Intelligence Agencies. You're banking on us being able to out-produce the AI in EP right now, but a) that's only going to work if we focus on one AI, and b) you are assuming that the AI will not match our spending. It's much more likely that we either reach an espionage stalemate or are forced to escalate espionage spending, which will only hurt us.

We'd be much better off focusing on passive ways to generate espionage points, such as by building Courthouses early, and even running spy specialists (although a Scientist would probably be much, much better). If we get ahead in technology, we can research Constitution, Democracy, and Communism and build the EP multiplying buildings and jump ahead in EP, even if we weren't winning the race earlier.

Think about it this way: If you put that 10% into science, we get to Code of Laws earlier, and we'll generate more EP in the long-run that way. It is just not good economics in Civilization to spend your money on anything but research unless you are planning a Spy Economy, or going for a Cultural win later in the game.

 

[ilduce349]

Spy specialists are WAY better then scientists, it gives science and ep points
I disagree, 10% isn't that much, and where not getting CoL anytime soon (i think, havn't been paying attention to the tech arguement)

 

[Whosit]

Spy specialists are WAY better then scientists, it gives science and ep points
I disagree, 10% isn't that much, and where not getting CoL anytime soon (i think, havn't been paying attention to the tech arguement)

Spy specialists generate 1 beaker, while Scientists produce 3. Therefore, if your goal is to generate science, Scientists are better. Also keep in mind that Scientist specialists will produce Great Scientists, which are much better than Great Spies, unless you are running a Spy Economy. If we were in Representation, though, I could see how Spy specialists would be better overall.

Also: Pay attention to the technology discussions. We are planning to get Code of Laws in the near future.

 

[MathNerd]

Sorry I haven't been on in a while. Anyway, I agree with Whosit, Espionage isn't really that powerful in BTS.

Also,

My strategy for the country: Military Preparedness and Consolidation. Centuries of REXing have left us with a woeful military and deplorable infrastructure. I propose we pursue building up the military and improving overall infrastructure.

Hold it. What exactly do you mean by "deplorable infrastructure?" We've built Stonehenge and spammed enough workers to set your administration up to improve the lands. Workers are the foundation of an empire. I don't see what's so "deplorable" about our current situation.

 

[W|M]

A Spy economy probably wont work, and we should prioritze scientists - We have no Great Spies in the near future, the espionage slider is a waste of money (although spy specialists are alright) and we don't need much anyway.

 

[Whosit]

Anyway, I agree with Whosit, Espionage isn't really that powerful in BTS.

Hold it. What exactly do you mean by "deplorable infrastructure?" We've built Stonehenge and spammed enough workers to set your administration up to improve the lands. Workers are the foundation of an empire. I don't see what's so "deplorable" about our current situation.

At least you seem to agree on our military situation. I cannot speak for Aysee, but when I say "infrastructure," I am referring to City Improvements; when I say "improvements," I mean Tile Improvements. Anyway, based on the most recent screen shots, our cities have not been building the basic infrastructure they need to grow and develop quickly. And we may have many Workers, but our cities are not yet developed. Is there even a single Worker in Iberia? If not, that goes to show that our Workers have not been managed well up to this point.

So, I must say that I agree that things are "deplorable" in that we have the resources we need, but they have not been properly applied.

Also, Stonehenge may be useful, but I don't really consider it "infrastructure."

I agree with west india man: Our base EP is enough for passive missions and seeing rival charts. We probably want to make sure our EP is focused on Russia and Rome.

 

[MathNerd]

:At least you seem to agree on our military situation. I cannot speak for Aysee, but when I say "infrastructure," I am referring to City Improvements; when I say "improvements," I mean Tile Improvements. Anyway, based on the most recent screen shots, our cities have not been building the basic infrastructure they need to grow and develop quickly. And we may have many Workers, but our cities are not yet developed. Is there even a single Worker in Iberia? If not, that goes to show that our Workers have not been managed well up to this point.

Oh, no. I still don't find our military situation being as troublesome as everyone makes it sound. However, we've already yelled the heck out of that, but if you want, we can continue.

Also, I think its much useful to make the number of workers you have in an area proportional to the city size. As of now, our Iberia cities are puny, and therefore do not require too many workers.

 

[ilduce349]

I am dropping the slider to 0% due to popular demand, science will be at 70%

 

[W|M]

whats wrong with a deficit for more tech?

More research.

 

[Whosit]

Oh, no. I still don't find our military situation being as troublesome as everyone makes it sound. However, we've already yelled the heck out of that, but if you want, we can continue.

No, I'd rather not. It has been a long time since I've played on Noble; perhaps I'll try to find the time again, sometime soon, and see how long I can go without many troops.

Also, I think its much useful to make the number of workers you have in an area proportional to the city size. As of now, our Iberia cities are puny, and therefore do not require too many workers.

That . . . that is actually the opposite of how I like to do things. When a city is small, they need immediate Worker attention! Food resources need to be improved, allowing the city to grow faster. Other tiles need to be improved so that the city can get the most out of them when they grow. Honestly, every city should always have at least one Worker nearby, unless every single tile has already been improved (although, later in the game, new technologies may lead to improvements being changed).

Think of it this way: Sure, we could wait for the Iberian cities to grow before we develop them. But they will not be very productive or contribute much to our economy. If we have Workers there as soon as they are founded, they will reach their peak potential much earlier, making us stronger earlier and with longer-lasting effects.

We need to get 3-4 Workers to Iberia as soon as possible, and at least 2 more Archer to protect them.

I am dropping the slider to 0% due to popular demand, science will be at 70%

Much obliged, good sir.

whats wrong with a deficit for more tech?

More research.

Nothing, but we can't keep it up forever. We should spend at a deficit until we have nothing left to spend. Although . . . are events on in this game? There's a small chance we'd like some money in the bank, but it's probably better just to spend it on research, reducing the slider when we can no longer sustain it.

I just came up with my estimates assuming the slower rate.

 

[MathNerd]

70%?????????

NO! We're debating about how to get to a religion the fastest and you suggest 70%??? We're chasing a religion here!!!

LH, how much money do we lose at 70%, 80%, 90%, and 100%? At the rate Asoka's going, he's going to found Christianity and CoL and we'll be forced to convert to Buddhism! For god's sake (literally), is that what we want???????

 

[ilduce349]

we gain gold at 70% and loose at any higher

 

[MathNerd]

OK. How much gold do we have?

Also, BUILD MORE COTTAGES, Arya (who, I note, hasn't been on in the last, like, week )!!!!!!!!!

 

[MathNerd]

So, now we wait till Arya gets on and approves/disapproves of the tech plans.

Plans (listed in order of the opposition's least favorite to most favorite):

1. Ignore religion altogether.

2. Do some other techs like Construction before we go for a religion.

3. Currency - CoL

4. Medi, poly, etc. so we can bulb Theology.

Notice that #2 can be used with #3 and #4, so lets call those combos 2.3 and 2.4.

 

[Whosit]

So, now we wait till Arya gets on and approves/disapproves of the tech plans.

Plans (listed in order of the opposition's least favorite to most favorite):

1. Ignore religion altogether.

2. Do some other techs like Construction before we go for a religion.

3. Currency - CoL

4. Medi, poly, etc. so we can bulb CoL.

Notice that #2 can be used with #3 and #4, so lets call those combos 2.3 and 2.4.

I would like to point out that 4 is impossible: You would bulb Theology instead. And I think that 2.3 would be my vote.

Do we have a Vice-President?

 

[MathNerd]

Oh, yeah. I meant bulb Theology, edited.

Whosit, does #4 take less time than #3?

 

[Whosit]

Whosit, does #4 take less time than #3?

In terms of beakers spent, yes. I made those calculations a page or two ago. Meditation, Polytheism, Priesthood, and Monotheism must be researched for the Great Prophet to bulb Theology. I think that was roughly 350+ beakers. The quickest path to Code of Laws is Currency > Code of Laws, for a total of 750 beakers.

The downside, of course, is that we are spending those 350 beakers on technologies that we do not necessarily need. However, if we all agreed that we are hell-bent on getting a religion founded, that would be the fastest way. If we could somehow find a civilization who would trade us some of those technologies, that path would be much cheaper. However, no one we know will trade them to us.

Has the Temple of Artemis been built yet? If not, that might explain why no one will trade Polytheism.

Also, the most efficient tech path would be: Meditation > Polytheism > Priesthood > Monotheism. Every prerequisite you meet for a technology provides a 20% bonus to beakers produced. Priesthood has two possible prerequisites: Meditation and Polytheism. Researching both gives us a 40% bonus when researching Priesthood. Montheism's prerequisite is both Polytheism and Masonry, so it will get the basic 20% bonus.

Any questions?

 

[MathNerd]

Do we have a Vice-President?

I'd say now's a good time to pick a VP, particularly because the president has appeared to have died.

I think it should be you, judging how nobody else on your side seems to be saying anything other than Aysee, who was on for just a few posts. Also, you are more neutral than many others.

EDIT: Wow! Whosit, you're really knowledgeable about Civ!