Realpolitik CIV - An Interactive AAR

[Aysee]

Well, I didn't say that having the huge mixed bag of differing ideas was a good idea, I just said that the main purpose of a coalition shouldn't be ideology (though that is very important) but should be for gaining more power.

 

[Cull]

Okay then. You rose to power. Now what? With different ideas/agendas/goals, your administration becomes weak, corrupt, and undesirable. It is better to have a coalition founded on the same principles that will survive, and agree with each other, and their goals are the same.

 

[Cull]

Well, I didn't say that having the huge mixed bag of differing ideas was a good idea, I just said that the main purpose of a coalition shouldn't be ideology (though that is very important) but should be for gaining more power.

While my above post still applies, I have to ask the question: If the huge mixed bad of different ideas isn't a good idea, why did it happen? If for power, see above post by me. If something else, please explain.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

Snip

-Cull

-Leader of the Opposition

I go to sleep. Wake up and we've won the vote.

In that time the opposition has gone to work quickly stating that we are fractured and will not be able to make choices. While the Coalition of Doom has tried to state they are MORE able to make choices. Cull has also stated that our Coalition will not last. This is TRUE. I draft this letter response.

-

The Coalition of Doom is indeed Doomed

What are our fundemental differences? in our choices.
how do we make choices? by having POWER! The freedom to make choices.

Power comes through science, land and military might. It is what we three choose to do with it that will define our differences, and when that happens, yes, we will break apart. But for now we do not have power, we do not have liberty to offer our citizens, we do not have armies with which to attack, we do not have a scientific lead even. For now our coalition has the same purpose, to gain our empire more power with which to make choices. The Liberal Marxists will pursue the growth of our empire. The Modernizational Party will pursue scientific endevours, deciding on how these cities are run, the Nationalists will pursue the building of an army, one with which to defend us.

We do not have the luxery to be able to overextend our empire in the ways we truely desire. Right now this coalition is about survival. We have one little town with a halfway built barracks! We need cities NOW we need warriors to defend them NOW and we need to start to modernize our people.

The Opposition leader states we will not be able to work together. We can because we are able to sacrifice views that have no meaning yet to better the empire. From the start i had thought that the Nationalists would make a good ally, i only held back because i thought this was not allowed. Yes Coalitions are about power but they are also about sacrifice. I have Sacrficed my desire for the Military Minister position so that the Nationalists could become true allies. Perhaps i have also sacrficed my position in my party by asuming tempory power to bring the THREE together. I did so voluntarily loose personal power so that the power of our empire was secured. Power and sacrifice go hand in hand.

The Nationalists need a big enough empire to support future wars. They need a base on the mainland to launch a strike. While the Lib-Marx do not agree with what the Nationalists will do with the empire in the DISTANT future we agree that we need that empire.
While we disagree that the people should come second to advancement in the Modernizational Party views. We agree that we need to modernize and have a empire to pursue our future science.
While the Lib-Marx wishes to be withheld and secretive on the global scale the Modernizational and Nationalist parties will seek out alliances for trading or military needs. However they understand that right now that does not matter as only when there is enough empires working in concert is this effective. Right now we have two potential leaders we have not met.

Our parties cannot diverge from each other untill we have the ability to choose to do so. When that happens yes people, yes, our little coalition is Doomed. But untill that day. Untill that day we will forge our empire into something better, we will bring doom to our enemies untill we bring doom to our own political alliance and we shall be happy because our empire shall be stronger for it.

Signed: Ravus (AKA dead man waiting)

-

On other topics
The Great Wall
Yes the great wall, i was suprised by the Military advisor stating we should go for as it is a luxury wonder. It protects the citizens and stops the need for an army. Then i realised that once built our cities will only need a minimal defence and our armies can then be tooled for offense instead. A good tactic and one that will in the future keep the citizens safe.
The choices for this wonder are few it cannot be built in america, it is useless in england. Unless we get an extension on the 30 turn party leading the empire then we may not even have a european city in place to build the GW.

Ministers
Saneperson, as the domestic/interior minister please highlight your view on our build path and if a science minister does not step forward perhaps a science path as well. I support your desire as i know you will touch on writing eventually which is needed to scout/spy on future enemies and forge alliences.

Conquerer, as the military Minister please highlight your views on the defence of the British Isles and the Plans for European expansion. We all know an empire is needed for war and perhaps a publicly declared military city whose sole purpose will be to defend our people.

Lopaz, has anyone seen him yet? i'd like to know if i am in exile or not.

 

[Cull]

Oh my, your coalition was doomed, now its dead.

Why do I state this? If it wasn't for the fact that indeed you have different agendas all conflicting each other, or the fact, that at the heart of it all, your parties have different ideologies, or even that you think your bloated coalition will reach a compromise that won't leave people walking away frowning, it has to be the silly idea of power and sacrifice. That is utterly false. Has the Prime Minister sacrificed anything? No, yet he is Prime Minister. This follows with many other people in your coalition. You are just a little example out of many that contradict you.

As you give up the position of Military Adviser, did you feel regret? Pain? Or did you say to yourself, "Oh, I lost my power, lost my office, all for the sake of sacrifice to make others better, even now I know they will backstab me one day."? That is what you should think about.

 

[Cull]

At around the time the election was closing down, did anyone experience connection issues? My computer sat there for 20 second loading my reply page, and now, its 2-3 seconds. Maybe to do with my internet, but just wanted to know if anyone else had similar problems or not.

 

[Lighthearter]

Cull - I'd appreciate it personally if you'd cool it just a tad, but I won't take any action as The Man - this is politics, after all. There will be a lot of fiery debates

And I wouldn't know about load times - my power went out pretty much after I closed the election.

MathNerd - Welcome to the party!

Ravus_Sol - Should I list it as the Ravus_Sol Administration or the lopaz Administration(Acting President: Ravus_Sol)? I'm in favor of the former - you took the reins, you deserve the prize. Unless you want to hand it over.

<Last update of the Lighthearter administration is delayed - can't post screenshots for a day or so. Patience.>

- Lighthearter

 

[Cull]

Cull - I'd appreciate it personally if you'd cool it just a tad, but I won't take any action as The Man - this is politics, after all. There will be a lot of fiery debates

And I wouldn't know about load times - my power went out pretty much after I closed the election.

MathNerd - Welcome to the party!

Ravus_Sol - Should I list it as the Ravus_Sol Administration or the lopaz Administration(Acting President: Ravus_Sol)? I'm in favor of the former - you took the reins, you deserve the prize. Unless you want to hand it over.

<Last update of the Lighthearter administration is delayed - can't post screenshots for a day or so. Patience.>

- Lighthearter

Understood.

 

[Ravus_Sol]

Oh my, your coalition was doomed, now its dead.

Why do I state this? If it wasn't for the fact that indeed you have different agendas all conflicting each other, or the fact, that at the heart of it all, your parties have different ideologies, or even that you think your bloated coalition will reach a compromise that won't leave people walking away frowning, it has to be the silly idea of power and sacrifice. That is utterly false. Has the Prime Minister sacrificed anything? No, yet he is Prime Minister. This follows with many other people in your coalition. You are just a little example out of many that contradict you.

As you give up the position of Military Adviser, did you feel regret? Pain? Or did you say to yourself, "Oh, I lost my power, lost my office, all for the sake of sacrifice to make others better, even now I know they will backstab me one day."? That is what you should think about.

-

Your arguement now has worn down to little barbs and quips.

You have hand waved the response i gave on differing idiologies and compromise and sacrifce. More so your response is yet again rooted in self-defeatism and negativity. So i shall state things more bluntly.

Different ideologies: how can we differ? we CANNOT make opposing choices because we do not have enough power to change civics.

Compromise: ALLWAYS leaves people frowning. Even a winning leader must sometimes compromise to the opposition. without compromise there is only subjigation twards one view and from that it only leads to slavery.

The rest of your highlights merely seem to paint humanity as some kind of evil scum. Allways backstabbing and being unworthy. When i speak of power and sacrifice i speak of an honourable humanity when you speak of power you speak of power that must be stolen and guarded against people that will wrest it from you. To you peoples differences are insurmountable. There is a THEM and a US. You only bound an US together because the THEM are so different. Where will this path end?

If you wish to prove that the Aliance is doomed then you have simply to highlight a single event that can happen in the 30-50 turn alliance. Something so shattering that we could never reach a civilized re-action to it.

You have none.

Why?

Because while we differ on our thoughts. Our actions are so limited that the only choices we have are to act together.

-

EDIT:
@Lighthearter

Don't worry about Cull toning it down, he has forgotten one of the tenants of politics is not just how you portray your opposition but also how that portrayal will make you look for giving it. Thats not even mentioning how the emotional responses will work.

People are honourable beings, yet we are also stubborn. The MORE Cull declares us to be incompetent and unable to work together, the more we will come together in a show of defiance to prove him wrong. To show that we are BETTER.

As for the role of leadership... taking it would defeat most of what i've said. I didn't win this election, it was merely fortunious events, the Modernizational party and Liberal Marxists coming together follwed by the last second swing vote (one vote does count) then the revalation that we could have had three coalition members all along. By logic we could hand it to Ayra or the nationalist party for "winning" us the election.

No merely call it the Doom Administration for now. Lopaz is still absent and if forced i will play the role of de-facto-Leader but ONLY if the Minister's highlight what they want from the country so that i can forge a neccesary path from the desires of the many.

Consider these the OK minister positions for now, they deserve it. Everyone please remember that as our empire is unbuilt as yet most of the power will rest with the interior and military ministers.

Interior Minister: SanePerson
Military Minister: Conquerer500
Foreign Minister: Arya126
Science Minister: (SanePerson, untill someone asks for it - we need a techpath)
Cultural Minister: OPEN
Finance Minister: Aysee

In that regard Lighthearter could we trouble you for a picture of the British Isles and Europe with the Resources highlighted to choose our second city choice.
Also a picture of the tech path screen and a picture of the city screen. (these will become neccesary more often in the future)

 

[Cull]

First, let me apoglize for the essentially knee jerk reaction to the First Coliations loss. Ravus_sol, I'm sorry for basically being a grumpy, unagrreable person in the last 7 ish hours. How can you differ? Well, a relogous fanatic group would chase religion and relogous wonders, as opposed to a more militry ordered group.Civics don't matter as much as what you emphaize, in builds and tech. I have go concede your point on compromission. I make a them, and us comparsion, and treat it so harsh, because that is what I believe humans are if left unchecked. Different points of view. I make a them and is comparsion because, to my eyes, while both groups to further Britian, one group is in office, and one is out. That is what I think defines them versus us. your groups could quabble over a tech, mine versus cottage versus farm first, or even builds.

 

[W|M]

I agree that CoD will do in the short-term, with no real decisions to make (unless a Random Event happens or something), but in the long-term, the party will end up too bloated, and collapse on itself, making it very likely that you would be overthrown.

 

[jokoneli]

Martial Nationalist Party
"Military Extremist; Only interested in Victory via conquest or domination. Supports wars and nationalism, but will generally leave people's religion alone."

Liberal Marxist Party
"Left-Wing Communism; Is a supporter of state property and the freedoms of all people. War is only to liberate people. Also the party pursues a secretive policy over being entangled in alliances."

I think you are gonna have some trouble deciding your military politic

 

[Ravus_Sol]

Martial Nationalist Party
"Military Extremist; Only interested in Victory via conquest or domination. Supports wars and nationalism, but will generally leave people's religion alone."

Liberal Marxist Party
"Left-Wing Communism; Is a supporter of state property and the freedoms of all people. War is only to liberate people. Also the party pursues a secretive policy over being entangled in alliances."

I think you are gonna have some trouble deciding your military politic

Yes it will be.

Once we actually have an army and an empire capable of supporting a prolonged offensive war.

Not to mention we actually have to find a rival civilization to attack and scout out it's defences. Then build up appropriate attackers while fortifying our defenders and so on. War does not happen at this point. At most we could have a border schirmish where we send a warrior over into their lands to pillage and steal workers. But for now we don't even know WHERE the enemy is much less how to get there and whether they have copper/iron/ivory etc.

The CoD is only in power for 50 turns. Thats probably long enough to get stonehenge and a second city out. It is not long enough to spring up a well maintained empire and a fighting force capable of war.

People who want to win through war do not leap into it. They make sure they have a lead in land, science or military before attacking.

-

Just looked at the mod this is for and got a headache... we are on the Carter map. The HUGE map. The map that would take more then a hundred turns to circumnavigate. This... is going to take awhile.

 

[Cull]

First, let me apoglize for the essentially knee jerk reaction to the First Coliations loss. Ravus_sol, I'm sorry for basically being a grumpy, unagrreable person in the last 7 ish hours. How can you differ? Well, a relogous fanatic group would chase religion and relogous wonders, as opposed to a more militry ordered group.Civics don't matter as much as what you emphaize, in builds and tech. I have go concede your point on compromission. I make a them, and us comparsion, and treat it so harsh, because that is what I believe humans are if left unchecked. Different points of view. I make a them and is comparsion because, to my eyes, while both groups to further Britian, one group is in office, and one is out. That is what I think defines them versus us. your groups could quabble over a tech, mine versus cottage versus farm first, or even builds.

I posted this about 8 hours ago, and recieved no response. Can I get a response?

 

[Ravus_Sol]

I posted this about 8 hours ago, and recieved no response. Can I get a response?

Sorry, didn't spot a question mark in there so i thought it was just a comment resposne. I'm just about to go sleep and i can't see a narrative flow in the paragraph. What's the point you are trying to lead towards? All i can make out is;

1) Apologising and reafirming dialogue
2) Pointing out that different views will shape a civs build choices
3) there is allways quibbling, ours will be done over techs

I basically agree with all of it so i'm not sure the comment you wish to recieve...

On tech paths well there are only three major paths, religious, science and military. (or monothiesm/writing/iron working) however choices towards these are based on both ideology and situation.

Military = At the moment we CANNOT go to war. We have no enemy in sight and no way to get onto the mainland. Heading towards this would have a detrimental effect on our ability to raise an army as we would rush towards weapons instead of increasing our ability to sustain an empire.

Religious = None of our group care for religion one way or another. We could go for one eventually but for now it would be a waste to chase down this tech path when we don't even know if buddism or hinduism have been founded yet.

Science = By process of elimination the only techpath left. Heading to writing will allow us to make librarys to further our tech rate and also open borders which is imperitive for both building peaceful relations and scouting out land for war.

There will be a few others but they are all limited.

The people wish for Stonehenge? Then we need masonry and wheel.
The people wish for French city? Then we need sailing and perhaps Archery to defend it.
The people wish for a prosperous city? Then we need animal husbandry

After writing is where the first actual choice will be made. Are we friendly enough to go for alphabet and trade with neighbours? are our enemies weak enough for us to go to iron working? Have the religions been founded slowly hinting we should rush for the third or fourth religion? (how fast is the great prophet from stonehenge growing that we could bulb a religion or found a shrine?)

However 50 turns will only be enough to get sailing/masonry/wheel/hunting/archery/animal husbandry/writing

after that it will be the NEXT elections.

-

Right. Now i'm going to sleep. This above was all basically just a rehash of whats becomeing my catchphrase > "we have limited options"

 

[Nukeknockout]

I would like to apply for science minister of the Coalition of Doom.

as Ravus_Sol said,we can work together.at this time,there is little point in pursuing militarism or diplomatic relations,for the reason that we don't even know where anyone else is.

right now,forging an empire is the task of CoD,so that we all can do as we need in later days.I would like to say that i approve of the GW of Eurasia idea. This means we need a French city. That means we need a Galley. That means we need (my favorite tech)Sailing. This means we need 2 damn Workers,a Settler and a military unit to defend the French city(not in that order,more like Galley-Unit-Settler-found city while building workers). While we're building all those,we could easily research Animal Husbandry. I do think Writing must be our top priority,both for empire-forging reasons(Culture) and because I'm part of the Modernizational Party and it's our goal to advance technology.

 

[jokoneli]

Yes it will be.

Once we actually have an army and an empire capable of supporting a prolonged offensive war.

Not to mention we actually have to find a rival civilization to attack and scout out it's defences. Then build up appropriate attackers while fortifying our defenders and so on. War does not happen at this point. At most we could have a border schirmish where we send a warrior over into their lands to pillage and steal workers. But for now we don't even know WHERE the enemy is much less how to get there and whether they have copper/iron/ivory etc.

The CoD is only in power for 50 turns. Thats probably long enough to get stonehenge and a second city out. It is not long enough to spring up a well maintained empire and a fighting force capable of war.

People who want to win through war do not leap into it. They make sure they have a lead in land, science or military before attacking.

I agree that it doesn't matter at the beginning but as a voter of the opposition coalition i want to point out the problems in your coalition

 

[Conqueror500]

I agree with Nuke's and Ravus's posts.

 

[Nukeknockout]

I forgot to mention that although the Coalition of Doom was one hell of a shotgun wedding, that's no reason to assume our differing views will prevent us from behaving like gentleman. Namely,I will duel anyone who disagrees with me. Oh,is that not acceptable? fine,i can negotiate instead

 

[Lighthearter]

Ravus_Sol - I wasn't going to go nuts about it, I'm just personally disinclined to appreciate angry political speeches.

Doom Administration? OK, but I think you deserve the post in full . . . .

And I can't go to imageshack for a while. A storm took out some of my hardware. I can do text though But be patient on the images.

Nukeknockout - I'll note you down in that position as son as Ravus confirms!

- Lighthearter