Redemption

[Ajidica]

Why in FFH is there no redemption? I understand it is dark fantasy, and there shouldn't be to much redemption. If there was no redemtion, there can be no falling because everyone would be doing it. People may be greedy and corrupt, but there are some people that wouldn't become evil, not everyone has a lack of morals. It might be nice to have one or two cases of redemption to show that there is hope for this world and that it has reason for existing.

 

[MrUnderhill]

What about Kylorin? He went from the supreme ruler of the largest evil empire on Erebus to the leader of the resistance against that same empire.
That's a good example of redemption right there.

 

[Ajidica]

Kylorin was evil? I thought he trained under Cerdiwan or Nanaotusella, who are both good.

 

[smjjames]

no, Cerdiwen had already fallen long ago (before the age of dragons I think, Bhall may be the only god/goddess to fall to Agares after the age of dragons.)

He trained under Cerdiwen (the goddess of magic) because of a pact he had made to save his wife, who was made to reincarnate over and over. Kylorin wasn't evil to begin with, but rather, was corrupted by the dark side so to speak. He later regretted what he was doing and prayed for help, and so Nantosuelta, the angel of faith and mercy helped him.

 

[Corlis]

I figure that, if Bhall stays fallen as she is, then maybe Mulcarn could be redeemed through his merging with Auric Ulvin?

 

[Darksaber1]

Well, Auric seems to be planing something involving freeing more frost giants from the world Mulcarn was forced to put them in at the signing of the Compact, but Mulcarn was the least evil of the evil angels. He might redeem himself. And in Age of Ice, you can get the Doviello to work with you anganst Mulcarn. But, I always imagined that if a good person had managed to rally the Illians, they might have managed a redemption of sorts.

 

[loocas]

And now she lives on in the user names of teenage goth girls in Anne Rice forums.

 

[Kael]

The cycle should go both ways. We certainly enforce that with game mechanics (it is as easy fo corrupt a good civ as redeem an evil one). Kylorin is a good example of someone who was very evil and turned good. The story of Saverous is all about his attempt to redeem himself after the damage he did as a thrull, though in game he is still in that thrull period.

 

[Ajidica]

Why was Kylorin evil? I dont remember any of that in the pedia. I dont see someone who killed a god to save the world as being evil.

 

[smjjames]

yea, in the FFH History entry in the pedia, it says "He is a wise and popular ruler. Loved by his people."

To me, the whole thing, the deal with Cerdiwen (which was probably out of desperation) sounds alot like falling to the dark side of the force. He was origionally good, but over time, after he had made the deal with Cerdiwen, he became mad with power. Some time later, I guess he saw what he had become and wanted to fix the whole thing.

So even though Kylorin went evil, he still had some good in him or something, otherwise he wouldn't have regretted what happened.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

Here's Kylorin's story-

Kylorin was a good and kind ruler. Kylorin's wife, now Epona, was having an affair. When Kylorin learned of the 'daliance' he prepared to jump off the battlments, only to be stopped by the goddess Cerdiwen.

Cerdiwen offered to help Kylorin. She gave him eternal youth, and made Epona's soul bound to Erebus. Whenever she died, she would be reborn rather than enter a hell or heaven. This meant Kylorin could woo her in many lives, and she would not remember her affair.

Kylorin then became evil and twisted from Cerdiwen's teaching, and he became an archmage. He had 21 students, who ruled Patria alongside him as cruel rulers. They created many beasts like manticores.

Kylorin, somehow, became remorseful and prayed for help. Natntosuelta, goddess of Faith answered his plea and helped him. She showed him how to use magic for good, which had never been done before. With her help (she became the Good Magic Goddess, like Cerdiwen is evil magic) he lead a rebellion to convert or kill his students.

Much later, Kylorin, still good, chose a band of humans to lead against Mulcarn.

 

[Darksaber1]

Ya, his story is told as an epic saga in his leader entry in Age of Ice.

 

[Kael]

Why was Kylorin evil? I dont remember any of that in the pedia. I dont see someone who killed a god to save the world as being evil.

At my hand the first empire of man was won
For me long faithful men bled and died
Yet I was the one to which this treachery was done
This truth I knew but my timid lips denied
That a disloyal heart each night beside me lied
My queen who spent her love upon another man
That heart, which I desired most, I could not command

To flee that gilded hell I sacrificed my life
From the tower into empty night I'd fly
What pain is death compared to faithless wife?
What hope exists to one who'd rather die?
So I stood upon the parapet and cried
"Come death, rend my flesh, gather my soul
Tear from me, this tragedy, this gaping hole"

No answer came from chill November night
Only wind and echoes from a city far below
Until from deep within the pale moonlight
Came a goddess wreathed in a pallid glow
"Answer me, most mortal king, for I would know
If I returned your love and you weren't dead
Would you forget your oaths and follow me instead?"

I'm not mad enough to think that burning spirits can
Remake this loss, restore my past undone
And you cannot make us understand
That with even the most silvered tongue
Loves remains can never love become
Or heart won through cheat is ever truly got
Or that this pain would cease if mind forgot

"If you've no hope left then leap to death"
"Else hear my words and enter this shadowed door"
"But I promise even if you don't draw breath"
"This pain will follow you to Arawn's shores"
"And in death you will possess hatred even more"
"For I know the dead, they are wounds unhealed"
"And if you leap now, to this your fate is sealed"

So came I to learn from the goddess of pain
Ceridwen, breaker of men, maiden of the mask
Many aspects she has and more vile names
She taught me how to revenge my past
And have my wife reborn so that our love might last
Sorcery, her gift to me, would sustain my life
And instead of death would reincarnate my wife

Born anew I could find and woo my wife again
Her mistake erased I'd have my perfect queen
With her death and newfound life she'd make amends
And I would remain forever as a king
In time the happiness she'd bring
Would make worthwhile this twisted sacrifice
For Ceridwen's gift had come at a price

Two hundred years I stayed as undying king
My lands, once fair, ruled now by arcane might
Through generations of my people and my queen
I alone remained and changed to Ceridwens delight
A cruel terror who commanded flame, death and night
I demanded that every man should come to obey
The least of my desires, which grew each passing day

Another Eve had passed, this time by my hand
After a break of years I went to seek her out
I found a young woman working on my lands
I approached and told her all about
The bond between us but she had only fear and doubt
Those eyes, once trusting, were now full of tears
Seeing the monster I'd become in all these years

She destroyed me in the centuries before
And now thought for this I was the one to blame
I returned to the life she now claimed to abhor
And left her in the fields her life unchanged
I approached her reborn forms but it was the same
Always revulsion at what I had become
And through any lie her heart remained unwon

My mages maintained Ceridwens demands
Most of which had been trained by me
My kingdom destroyed by my own hands
The first empire of man a cruel theocracy
Devoted to Cerdiwen, enforced by sorcery
And I alone remembered times more fair
It was far more than my guilty heart could bare

A bloody rebellion started, which I lead
My empire became an arcane battleground
As the gods had warred now man did instead
Landscapes were lost, forests, mountains, towns
Untold numbers unto Arawns shores were bound
In the end the great empire of man was gone
From it only shattered countries would go on

As ages pass these countries war against
Each other, forgetting once they were as one
Or how their bitter squabbling commenced
With an ancient love betrayed their war begun
Loves remains can never love become
The same is true for kingdoms split apart
Warring nations shattered by my heart

What of my queen across these centuries?
At times I glance her as our fates entwine
Sharing a few words or lives married
Occurs unforced as allowed by time
Loves strongest bonds are those that loosest bind
Her life to me, and mine spent trying to repay
My debt of sin to the men my acts betrayed

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Kylorin was evil? I thought he trained under Cerdiwan or Nanaotusella, who are both good.

Ceridwen is certainly not good. I consider her as being a close second to Agares for the role of the most evil of the gods.

I consider Kyorlin to have originally and eventually been only slightly on the good side of neutral. For a time though, he was probably the most evil man on earth.

 

[Ajidica]

@Kael: Thanks, I forgot about Age of Ice.
@Magister: I thought Cerdiwen was good. I can't keep all the gods straight.

About Kylorins fall, did he fall because he was doing evil things, or did he fall simply because he got corrupt and greedy for more power doing the evil things?

Edit: After reading the poem through, did Kylorin lead the rebellion against Cerdiwen?

 

[Pyr0mancer]

@Magister: I thought Cerdiwen was good. I can't keep all the gods straight.

You thought a Goddess known as the Mistress of Pain was GOOD? I don't lean that way myself, but who am I to judge your tastes?

As for redemption, the only ones I really can think of are Kylorin, Belenus (swordsman hero from AoI), and Saverous (been wanting to read his full tale for ages ). I suppose Arturus Thorne counts, at least according to the (apparently missing) pedia entry where Arturus brings Kandros his clan pillar-history-thing. Oh, and maybe Barnaxus. After all, he helped create the Ice Golems for Mulcarn, before his awakening and return to the Luchiurp.

 

[smjjames]

It's possible he doesn't remember the part about the ice golems.

From what I've seen in the Saverous pedia entry, I don't see how redemption is involved.

 

[xienwolf]

Saverous's redemption is in a lot of the OTHER pedia entries. As well as some of his life before being a Thrull. And tons of it is scattered through the forums by Kael as well (parts not in the pedia anywhere). I think the Trivia thread has most of it though. (Search the thread for Saverous)

 

[merciary]

It's possible he doesn't remember the part about the ice golems.

From what I've seen in the Saverous pedia entry, I don't see how redemption is involved.

I believe he remembers it but he refuses to go into details. He's pedia says "When asked, Barnaxus merely said: "A man spoke to me in the wastes and I awoke," he would say no more."

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I never understood why Ceridwen is evil. When angels fall, they become the opposite of what they stood for, but she seems to me a completely neutral angel. She controls dimensional magic, which sounds like space-time manipulation, the very fabric of Erebus. Kylorin became evil only because absolute power absolutely corrupts, and he became more wanting and more oppressive, but that sounds more like the realm of Mammon.