Refusing to shake hands with a woman. Is that discrimination ?

[h4ppy]

Well if the religion specifically forbids it (I don't know if it does, never actually read the Koran) then I don't see how it could be considered discrimination.

 

[cgannon64]

Most societies have made laws illegalizing murder, but that doesn't mean that most people don't murder because it's illegal. Who says women wouldn't continue if these laws were gone?

Your comparison is a little ridiculous. Murder is something that is done to others, and most people have a moral compass that tells them that you shouldn't harm others. Full-body scarves are something that only hurts the women themselves, and if it was made legal, you could be sure that the women would be questioning their value.

While it's true that Islamic societies probobly to have a fair amount greater sexist institutions it doesn't make Islam inherently more sexist, especially given the amount of sexist laws that existed in non-Islamic socities and how many still exist.

You are acting as if Islam does not have any sexist religious laws. I am not positive, but I am pretty sure the actual religious teachings reinforce the laws in most Muslim countries. Its not as if these laws fly in the face if Islam.

 

[Squonk]

It's not discrimination, not quite. They show their respect to a women by refusing to touch her.

 

[Stapel]

It is his hand, and therefore his right to decide with which person he wants to shake hands. There are several people (or groups of people) i would'nt shake hand eighter, for different reasons.

People should learn to accept other peoples behavior, as long as they don't harm someone else. And i doubt this woman was harmed (other then maybe in pride, but then pride isn't to good, right )

and

I would refuse to shake hand with a neonazi. Is this rassistic? Maybe discriminating.
Hitler refused to shake hand with him for rassitic reasons. THAT maked it a rassistic act. The reason, not the act itself.

Are you suggesting that we should accept other peoples sexist discriminating behaviour?
Are you suggesting we should not accept other peoples racist discriminating behaviour?
I'm a bit confused here.

I for one, am NOT ready to accept/respect other people's behaviour, according to the lines of 'as long nobody is harmed, all is well'.

To me, that is just plain ridiculous.

every moron has the right to refuse hands with whomever, but accepting or respecting it, goes a bit too far, imho.


This Imam is a dumb miserable sucker and we should keep on shouting that out!

 

[Stapel]

It's not discrimination, not quite. They show their respect to a women by refusing to touch her.

you can't possibly be serious. This Imam has very disrepectful ideas about women, according to Dutch standards.

 

[yoshi74]

@Stapel

Isn't it a bit arrogant to define the ways other people (especcially from other cultures/religions) should behave.

You don't have to like it, you are not forced to shake his hand.

I pointed out that not every refusal of a shake hand can be threatend equal. Its is the intension behind which makes the difference.
When the Imam decided for religious reasons not to shake her hand, i don't care. No reason to be mad at him for this. Or would you be angry when he rejects your invitation to a pork dinner (which he would refused for the same religious reason)?

No matter what i think of religion, and how i value religious blindness, it is not beneficial to try to force our cultural thinking on other people. You can't fight everyone who does things you don't like.

you can't possibly be serious. This Imam has very disrepectful ideas about women, according to Dutch standards.

When you look into the playboy or any other mag with quite naked woman the Imam would think that you have very disrespectful ideas about woman, according to islamic standards.

 

[Scuffer]

Surely it would be discrimination against the Imam to make him shake hands against his beliefs?

And if so, does that show that all this stuff about discrimination and rights isn't some logical path of rightness, but a big tangled web of morals that can never be straightened out?

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Refusing to shake hands with women in an exact facsimile of the male version of the handshake is not limited to Islamists. To me and mine, it just simply isn't good form. The correct procedure is to kiss the hand of the female, but that does lead to girl germs. As such, the simple greeting ritual should involve bowing by the subservient individual, which does not involve contact.

 

[Stapel]

@Stapel

Isn't it a bit arrogant to define the ways other people (especially from other cultures/religions) should behave.

I think it is alright to tell someone how to behave, but not allright to force him to behave in any way.

It is not arrogant to tell some imported Imam his views are totally freaked up, according to our standards (I even think it is a democratic duty to tell him).

For heaven's sake! I can invent a new religion right now and start to believe all people active on forums with yoshi74 as a nickname, are not to be given handshakes, out of respect for them.

And it is my good right to do so! And would indeed be wrong to force me to shake any yoshi74's hand!
But then I'd expect to be called a looser, sucker and moron as well!
Just like I tell you this Imam is a looser, sucker and moron.

 

[betazed]

You meet an Indian women. You stretch out arm to shake her hand. She demurely smiles, folds her hand in a namaste and bows slightly. You feel a little awkward but you do the same. You realize that she just followed her custom and you showed her respect by following hers.

{btw, a Jap women would do the same except she will bow in a different way and not fold her hands. }

Did she just discriminate against you? I don't think so. Hence I voted no.

 

[AceChilla]

The funny thing is. That meeting with the imams was all about integration, and discussing with Imams and mosques can do to promote integration of muslims in the Netherlands. Which is far below standard right now. And when the minister tries to give the Imam a hand the problem suddenly becomes perfectly clear.

You realize that she just followed her custom and you showed her respect by following hers.

Now if the Imam just would have done that. There was no problem.

 

[HannibalBarka]

It is not arrogant to tell some imported Imam his views are totally freaked up, according to our standards (I even think it is a democratic duty to tell him).

I think that is the thing that bothers me most about all your comments about muslim people in the NL, you always assume they are "imported", kind of second calss dutch citizens, just because they are muslims, or of muslim origin. They are as Dutch as you are, and every right to live the way they want as long as they don't harm people. Otherwise, you should go and burn the Vatican, it is stated there that only a Male may become a Pope, isn't that more discrimitatory than not shaking hand? In that case, why don't you consider having distinct bathrooms for man and women as discrimination? should I, as a male, consider all Dutch people as morons and succers just because they won't let me, a male, get into the lady's room???

 

[Stapel]

I think that is the thing that bothers me most about all your comments about muslim people in the NL, you always assume they are "imported", kind of second class dutch citizens, just because they are muslims, or of muslim origin.

I HAVE NEVER EVER ASSUMED DUTCH MUSLIMS ARE SECOND CLASS CITIZENS. AND I HAVE NEVER JUDGED A SINGLE PERSON ON HIS ORIGIN!
Your assumption I did so is a pathetic lie and a grave insult. I really think you owe me an apology.

They are as Dutch as you are, and every right to live the way they want as long as they don't harm people.

This is what I have posted a dozens times here, even in this thread. your selective read/understanding of my posts is incredible.

Otherwise, you should go and burn the Vatican, it is stated there that only a Male may become a Pope, isn't that more discrimitatory than not shaking hand?

Appearently you don't read my post on catholicism. I have stated (with arguments) various times that I consider the pope immoral and that I consider the catholic church a criminal organisation. Yet, I won't burn the Vatican, just like I won't burn the Imam this thread is about. I simply use my words to tell the Imam sucks, and I use my words to tell the pope sucks.

In that case, why don't you consider having distinct bathrooms for man and women as discrimination?

|As a matter of fact, I do.

should I, as a male, consider all Dutch people as morons and succers just because they won't let me, a male, get into the lady's room???

Have you ever tried to do so in NL? I guess not !

My dear Hannibal Barka,
My comments in this thread (or others) are in no way directed to Muslims in general. They are directed to an imported Imam (he is not Dutch, I think). I very strongly disagree with his habits, and will continue to speak out against it.
Yet, I also believe he has a right to have this ridiculous habits.

 

[HannibalBarka]

My Dear Stapel,
You are some kind of "behave like an average ultra-egaliterian dutch", you want all people in the NL to behave like the average white dutch+removing every thing that seems discriminatory (common bath rooms for males and females). But, first, not all dutch are like the average white dutch, so you have to accept some differences of behaviour from them as long as it is harmfull, and I am not sure all average dutch would accept your ultra-egalitarian philosophy. To tell you the truth, I used to be like you, never understood all those little discrimination between man and women (distinct bathroom, the fact the male is supposed to open the door to the lady and never the other way, etc), but I now think that this is what most people want, women included.
Sorry if I made you feel my comment was an insult, it wasn't the purpose, even if I find the word "Imported" a little bit extreme, like if you were talking about "Imported animals".
What make you think the Imam is not Dutch?

 

[Stapel]

My Dear Stapel,
You are some kind of "behave like an average ultra-egaliterian dutch", you want all people in the NL to behave like the average white dutch+removing every thing that seems discriminatory (common bath rooms for males and females).

Can we agree you do not post what I want? You have no idea. You are not the first here that thinks he (or she ) knows what I think. I am oversensitive for ti, I realise that, but still, I dislike it. Please stop thinking for me!

I would never even think of this idea of all behaving like the average white-Dutch. ABSOLUTELY NOT! You just made up that ugly thought, not me.
And where did I state, I want anything discriminatory to be removed? NOWHERE, Again made up by you.
When I say something is discriminatory, I do not say I want it removed, do I?

But, first, not all dutch are like the average white dutch, so you have to accept some differences of behaviour from them as long as it is harmfull, and I am not sure all average dutch would accept your ultra-egalitarian philosophy.

Once again, I do not support this ultra-egalitarian philosophy YOU just invented.
In fact, I very strongly dislike the behaviour of the average white Dutch, but that has more to do with Zoetermeer, Almere, Volkswagen and vinexwijken .

To tell you the truth, I used to be like you, never understood all those little discrimination between man and women (distinct bathroom, the fact the male is supposed to open the door to the lady and never the other way, etc), but I now think that this is what most people want, women included.

To tell you the truth, I, like you, used to be like the person you think I am today .
I had the same change of thoughts, you had.

Sorry if I made you feel my comment was an insult, it wasn't the purpose, even if I find the word "Imported" a little bit extreme, like if you were talking about "Imported animals".
What make you think the Imam is not Dutch?

As you probably know, most Muslim immigrants here come from the poorest regions in Morocco and Turkey, and thus lack sometimes even basic education. Unfortunately, even the current generation is behind in education.
The Muslim community in the Netherlands has a need for Imams, but they hardly bring forward people for this job themself. Therefor, they must be found abroad. Many Imams here, especially the more dogmatic/strict/extreme ones, come from countries that lack any proper values on Freedom & democracy, like we have it here.
That's why I used the word imported. Stricly for extremist/dogmatic Imams, not for the Muslim community in general.

 

[Squonk]

you can't possibly be serious. This Imam has very disrepectful ideas about women, according to Dutch standards.

What exactly do You mean by this?

 

[Perfection]

Your comparison is a little ridiculous. Murder is something that is done to others, and most people have a moral compass that tells them that you shouldn't harm others.

The comparison is only meant to show that legality doesn't mean that most are forced to do something, it only means some are.

Full-body scarves are something that only hurts the women themselves,

#1. I'm not refering to the Burka or anything like that, just the more conservative clothes.

and if it was made legal, you could be sure that the women would be questioning their value.

True, but that still doesn't mean that Muslim women by and large would choose not to wear conservative dress.

You are acting as if Islam does not have any sexist religious laws. I am not positive, but I am pretty sure the actual religious teachings reinforce the laws in most Muslim countries. Its not as if these laws fly in the face if Islam.

Niether did chastity belts in the middle ages fly in the face of Christianity, might I remind you of the patriarchy of the Catholic Church. Islamic law has been and is used for sexist purposes as has Christian law.

 

[Turtleneck]

We're talking about the same religion that in addition to forbidding the shaking of hands of women, dehumanizes them, yes?

 

[Squonk]

Islamic law has been and is used for sexist purposes as has Christian law.

There is not such thing as "Christian law", nothing that can be compared to shari'a

 

[Billy Rubin]

It's not discrimination imho - noone has the right to demand physical contact (which shaking hands is) with me or anyone else.

It could only be called discrimination if any disadvantage for the person would result from it imho, which clearly is not the case with a refused handshake.

If I refuse shaking womens hands, it may show I'm a sexist in someone's opinion, but I think being able to file discrimination complaints because of something like that is ridiculous as such.
Everyone has the right to decide whom to touch - if both sides agree to it - shake hands or whateve - if one side doesn't for whatever reasons, doing so or demanding to do so is a transgression.

Jesus - I just imagine being sued by women because I personally refuse kissing cheeks as a form of greeting, which has become quite a regular habit in recent years.
I don't want anyone except my girlfriend closer to my face than 20 cm - otherwise I feel offended - thus, it's my good right to refuse it by leaning back when I see the attempt is made.
It could be regarded as discrimination, because it only affects women (no man ever tried to kiss my cheek, but I would refuse that as well ...).