Religion

[Psychic_Llamas]

A suggestion; for era 1 and maybe 2 heroes, which are clearly designed in general to be non-combat support units (strength 2 and all....), why not give them the Cannot Attack feature, so that they AI doesn't decide to throw them away doing something stupid?

oops those strength 1s in era one are typos lol

EDIT: oh and while im thinking about it, id like to finish the design for the Salvation religion soon, so if anyone has any changes, comments, ideas, id love to hear them.

also, i think the last thing we need to focus on is what actually makes the salvation religion unique? ignoreing UUs and UBs that is. im thinking along FfH lines here, OO has water affinity, FoL has forest affinity, Esus has recon/betrayal affinity etc etc.

 

[Ahriman]

What do you imagine would be the tech requirements of such heroes? Just the Words of Salvation tech?
Remember that this is critical since all Salvation factions will be competing to build the hero.
Maybe a different tech would work better. If you get Words of Salvation first you get the shrine (with masonry), and thats already a nice reward. Maybe add a different tech requirement as well for the hero, so that whoever gets the shrine doesn't also necessarily get the hero.

Do you intend for these units to get metal weapon bonuses? I would suggest not, and just build whatever strength you think they should have into the base strength.

You might want to consider dropping the Era 1 version and just starting with the era 2. The only point of the era 1 version woudl be to start accumulating XP. Then, era 2 could have weak combat ability, and a slightly useful ability, and then era 3 version would have good combat ability and some nice abilities and speciality uses.
A single strength 4 unit is still pretty weak at Words of Salvation.
I assume that equipment is also available only at era 3?
Also, if this equipment is going to be capturable, like Orthus' axe etc., then you need to be very very careful to keep equipment fairly weak. Do you really want capturable equipment that grants immortality? Very dangerous. Just think of all the bug hell created by making Alkazan's mirror a capturable item.

The Righteous Fury ability could be the Scourge of Chaos promotion, from the waxing/waning winds of chaos thread.

Its hard to evaluate the various priests without tech requirements.
Strength 7 is probably too strong for Warrior priests occurring at Priesthood.
I would recommend making them weaker than frontline combat units (iron weapons axemen strength 6, iron weapons spearmen strength 5), but more specialised, having healing abilities (medic promotion) and bonuses vs undead and demons.

Assume that disciple units form an upgrade path?
Warrior priest -> witchhunter.

Scourge of chaos doesn't feel as in-flavor for a lady-of-the-lake type as it does for say Magnus.

I hope we still see the Green Knight (regenerating axe-wielding immortal, whats not to like?) as a Brettonian hero. He seems much cooler than an Enchantress.

A flanking bonus vs melee units on grail knights would be *very* interesting, would need some testing. I assume this is to compensate for weak strength? I do dislike the ideas of Bretonnians having *weaker* knights than standardknights. Knights are their best strength and their defining concept; its ok if their knights start as strong as everyone elses (or better even) AND can upgrade to even cooler UUs, as long as they have other weaker units. Eg: take away their Men at Arms pikemen replacement (which are too strong) and make them rely on Militia Spearmen (you could rename these men at arms and use the art) as anti-cav.
I like Awe. I dislike a fortification bonus. I think you should keep it that knights/cavalry have no fortification or defensive terrain bonuses; heavy cavalry are for charging on flat open fields, not anything else.

I don't think that Pilgrims should have auto-convert on conquest. Feels out of flavor, and takes away from the uniqueness of this ability. Also, it should be kept rare because the AI isn't going to know that you need to use the Witch-hunter as the final unit to capture the city to make the ability work (alternative; you could just make the ability auto-convert to salvation any city in resisitance).

I don't exactly associate Nightingales with screeching. Is that really a canon item??

Assume that level 4 questing knight requirement is copy-paste error on priest of Ursun.
I would recommend against Heal on an early-mid game unit. That spell is very VERY powerful. Medic promotions are probably a better way to go.

I think its boring to make all the UUs Inqusitor replacements.
Most factions should just use the regular inquisitor, and can have another religious hero with fanaticism.
(Also, in my Estalia suggestions I suggested an Estalian Inquisitor UU that has some Lore of Fire magic ability).

I feel that collateral damage suits a berserker better than blitz?

I'm a bit wary of the Tilean Magistrate. Remember that the effect of this is to allow even more spellcasters. Is Tilea really a particularly magical faction? They seemed to me neither very magical or very religious - much more trade/financial/mercenary oriented. How about a spell that creates extra trade routes and trade-route bonuses, rather than going into arcane magic?

 

[Ahriman]

also, i think the last thing we need to focus on is what actually makes the salvation religion unique? ignoreing UUs and UBs that is. im thinking along FfH lines here, OO has water affinity, FoL has forest affinity, Esus has recon/betrayal affinity etc etc.

Its harder to think of good overall religious themes, since so much of this stuff is civ-specific rather than religion specific.
I don't think we need to worry about this so much though because there is so much in the way of faction differentiation. In FFH, faction differentiation is good but modest, so the religions need to be very different. Also, religious differentiation is important since any civ can adopt any religion, so Calabim that go Order will have a different playstyle from one that goes OO, as will Svaltar that go Esus vs FoL.
Thats not really the case here.

Potential salvation religion strengths/weaknesses:
Good happiness.
Good vs chaos/undead.
Good Inquisition possibilities, but vulnerable to schisms and chaos cults (possibility; could missionary success chance depend on which existing religion(s) are in the city? So, a possible bonus of spirituality could be that it is very hard to implant another religion in a city with spirituality, and a weakness of Salvation could be that it is easy to implant another religion, but also easier to burn it out with inquisition). Also, could have higher chance of getting Chaos Cult event.
Maybe some kind of Crusade mechanic? Can't initiate peace treaty with chaos factions. Or more workable: can never vassalize or force capitulation of a chaos faction.

Destruction:
Lots of bonus XP to unit production. Milprod bonuses. War weariness bonuses.
Unique spread mechanics. Invulnerable to inquistion (important, since with no missionaries, there is no way to spread the religion if someone comes and does inquisiton in one of your cities).
Religion and greenskin magic use tied together as one; Religion/arcane spellcasters/units are one and the same.
Weak influence bonuses.

Chaos:
Lots of demons.
Chaotic mutations.
Corrupting/weakening others (cult of the dragon style effects/spread).
Poor happiness bonuses.

Ancestor gods:
Nearly impossible to implant other religions (very high missionary fail chance).
Gives gold.
Weak overall; dwarven power comes from strength and wealth and technology, not from religion.
No competition for shrine or hero.
Grudges.
Magic resistance.
Increase happiness or gold income or hammers from access to Gold, Silver, Gems resources.

Spritulaity:
Healing.
More tolerant of other religions (less religious wars); maybe less happiness penalty from non-state religions. More expensive inqusitors?
Maybe health bonuses (think of huge historic cities of Egypt, India, China, Japan vs small historic cities in Europe).


*edit*
Also, I would say go ahead with implementing these once you have design pinned down, using placeholder FFH/other art as needed. Art and design/bugfixing/balance are separate processes that can go at different paces.

 

[Ahriman]

fair enough... but i think the missionarys that spread religion should be generalised. there is no point in making them flavourful for 5 civs if they do the same thing.

Agreed.

im not overly sure about making religion spread in cities you build difficult, but in cities you capture definately.

This might be hard to implement. Unless you give every civ a mechanic where any city they found auto-adopts their state religion. But still no Salvation, Corruption, Spirituality until you adopt the religion.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

What do you imagine would be the tech requirements of such heroes? Just the Words of Salvation tech?
Remember that this is critical since all Salvation factions will be competing to build the hero.
Maybe a different tech would work better. If you get Words of Salvation first you get the shrine (with masonry), and thats already a nice reward. Maybe add a different tech requirement as well for the hero, so that whoever gets the shrine doesn't also necessarily get the hero.

not sure on tech requirements. the current tech tree will *hopefully* change quite a bit, ive never liked it the way it i. i suspect id pick a tech tier and grant heroes a tech that seems fitting (making sure the overall teching cost to that hero is the same as the others)

Do you intend for these units to get metal weapon bonuses? I would suggest not, and just build whatever strength you think they should have into the base strength.

i would say some should get metal weapons and some should not. Magnus would, but the enchantress wouldnt?

You might want to consider dropping the Era 1 version and just starting with the era 2. The only point of the era 1 version woudl be to start accumulating XP. Then, era 2 could have weak combat ability, and a slightly useful ability, and then era 3 version would have good combat ability and some nice abilities and speciality uses.
A single strength 4 unit is still pretty weak at Words of Salvation.
I assume that equipment is also available only at era 3?
Also, if this equipment is going to be capturable, like Orthus' axe etc., then you need to be very very careful to keep equipment fairly weak. Do you really want capturable equipment that grants immortality? Very dangerous. Just think of all the bug hell created by making Alkazan's mirror a capturable item.

True. i hadnt thought about the possible bugs and exploits, though i really liked the idea of that piece of equipment ill give it a shot at implemetnation and see where it takes us. might be easy to fix bugs like that (using black mirror as a guide)

The Righteous Fury ability could be the Scourge of Chaos promotion, from the waxing/waning winds of chaos thread.

ok

Its hard to evaluate the various priests without tech requirements.
Strength 7 is probably too strong for Warrior priests occurring at Priesthood.
I would recommend making them weaker than frontline combat units (iron weapons axemen strength 6, iron weapons spearmen strength 5), but more specialised, having healing abilities (medic promotion) and bonuses vs undead and demons.

well i wasnt thinking of the priest units to be avaliable immediately with words of salvation. strengths would have to be played around with during balancing.

Assume that disciple units form an upgrade path?
Warrior priest -> witchhunter.

no, dosnt fit the fluff. grail knights upgrading to pilgrims? i dont think so

I hope we still see the Green Knight (regenerating axe-wielding immortal, whats not to like?) as a Brettonian hero. He seems much cooler than an Enchantress.

id like him to be a civ hero along with louen leoncour rather than religious hero i fully intend for him to be implemented though. the fey enchantress seemed more fitting for a religious hero.

A flanking bonus vs melee units on grail knights would be *very* interesting, would need some testing. I assume this is to compensate for weak strength? I do dislike the ideas of Bretonnians having *weaker* knights than standardknights. Knights are their best strength and their defining concept; its ok if their knights start as strong as everyone elses (or better even) AND can upgrade to even cooler UUs, as long as they have other weaker units. Eg: take away their Men at Arms pikemen replacement (which are too strong) and make them rely on Militia Spearmen (you could rename these men at arms and use the art) as anti-cav.
I like Awe. I dislike a fortification bonus. I think you should keep it that knights/cavalry have no fortification or defensive terrain bonuses; heavy cavalry are for charging on flat open fields, not anything else.

i have actually forgotten what the base strengths of most units are (havent played the mod in forever) so im pretty much pulling random numbers out my arse once again they will be subject to significant change. i agree with the reduction in bret melee strength and increase in mounted strength though. your right about fortifications. it just seemed flavourful and fitting for grail knights, the protectors and guardiand of the Lady's sacred sites, to be good defenders.

don't think that Pilgrims should have auto-convert on conquest. Feels out of flavor

true

I don't exactly associate Nightingales with screeching. Is that really a canon item??

lol no neither do i. its completely non canon and i just googled 'ancient russian heroes' and found a guy called Ilya Muromets who killed a giant evil nightingale that killed people by screeching... i found it funny so decided 'what the heck, might as well use artistic liscence' any other suggestions are more than welcome

Assume that level 4 questing knight requirement is copy-paste error on priest of Ursun.

yep thanks

I would recommend against Heal on an early-mid game unit. That spell is very VERY powerful. Medic promotions are probably a better way to go.

ive never found it that powerful personally, and medic i find useless... a weakened heal spell perhaps?

I think its boring to make all the UUs Inqusitor replacements.
Most factions should just use the regular inquisitor, and can have another religious hero with fanaticism.
(Also, in my Estalia suggestions I suggested an Estalian Inquisitor UU that has some Lore of Fire magic ability).

id like to keep some basic structure to it, and making all priests and inquisitors UU seemed appropriate. good suggestion for estalian inquisitor though

I feel that collateral damage suits a berserker better than blitz?

whys that?

I'm a bit wary of the Tilean Magistrate. Remember that the effect of this is to allow even more spellcasters. Is Tilea really a particularly magical faction? They seemed to me neither very magical or very religious - much more trade/financial/mercenary oriented. How about a spell that creates extra trade routes and trade-route bonuses, rather than going into arcane magic?

Tilea is a pain in the arse. i orignially had them using the Merchant god, but couldnt think of any decent UUs or effects, so opted for Verena who was more flavourful. the Magistrate could be limited to only 'adept' level magics?

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Its harder to think of good overall religious themes, since so much of this stuff is civ-specific rather than religion specific.
I don't think we need to worry about this so much though because there is so much in the way of faction differentiation. In FFH, faction differentiation is good but modest, so the religions need to be very different. Also, religious differentiation is important since any civ can adopt any religion, so Calabim that go Order will have a different playstyle from one that goes OO, as will Svaltar that go Esus vs FoL.
Thats not really the case here.

true

Potential salvation religion strengths/weaknesses:
Good happiness.
Good vs chaos/undead.
Good Inquisition possibilities, but vulnerable to schisms and chaos cults (possibility; could missionary success chance depend on which existing religion(s) are in the city? So, a possible bonus of spirituality could be that it is very hard to implant another religion in a city with spirituality, and a weakness of Salvation could be that it is easy to implant another religion, but also easier to burn it out with inquisition). Also, could have higher chance of getting Chaos Cult event.
Maybe some kind of Crusade mechanic? Can't initiate peace treaty with chaos factions. Or more workable: can never vassalize or force capitulation of a chaos faction.

good ideas here. particularly the crusade one and chaos cults.

Destruction:
Lots of bonus XP to unit production. Milprod bonuses. War weariness bonuses.
Unique spread mechanics. Invulnerable to inquistion (important, since with no missionaries, there is no way to spread the religion if someone comes and does inquisiton in one of your cities).
Religion and greenskin magic use tied together as one; Religion/arcane spellcasters/units are one and the same.
Weak influence bonuses.

id like to remove war wearyness for destruction nations and add in peace wearyness instead . good point on inquisition immunity, and with the religion/magic synergy.

Chaos:
Lots of demons.
Chaotic mutations.
Corrupting/weakening others (cult of the dragon style effects/spread).
Poor happiness bonuses.

good ideas. sheim style summoning of units from temples would be awsome.

Ancestor gods:
Nearly impossible to implant other religions (very high missionary fail chance).
Gives gold.
Weak overall; dwarven power comes from strength and wealth and technology, not from religion.
No competition for shrine or hero.
Grudges.
Magic resistance.
Increase happiness or gold income or hammers from access to Gold, Silver, Gems resources.

good ideas again. grudges will be fun

Spritulaity:
Healing.
More tolerant of other religions (less religious wars); maybe less happiness penalty from non-state religions. More expensive inqusitors?
Maybe health bonuses (think of huge historic cities of Egypt, India, China, Japan vs small historic cities in Europe).

i would also suggest no religious unhappyness for other religions present in spirituality cities.

*edit*
Also, I would say go ahead with implementing these once you have design pinned down, using placeholder FFH/other art as needed. Art and design/bugfixing/balance are separate processes that can go at different paces.

will do i think the first version will focus on Salvation and Chaos religions as well as bug fixes

 

[Ahriman]

no, dosnt fit the fluff. grail knights upgrading to pilgrims? i dont think so

Clearly not all unit combinations would be able to follow this path. But priests upgrading to Witch-hunters, berserkers and Magistrates seems fine. And maybe to Blazing sun knights (if these aren't a knight upgrade).

i would say some should get metal weapons and some should not. Magnus would, but the enchantress wouldnt?

I would repeat my old argument about metal weapons; bronze and iron strategic resources represent large qualities of high quality ores and manufacturies suitable for mass production of superior weapons, for outfitting regiments. You don't need mass-quantities of such ore to make a single decent set of metal armor and weapons.
So Magnus should still have full strength even if you don't have access to a mass-scale high quality iron weaponry.
This mod is too metal-based as it is (recon units shouldn't use metals).

might be easy to fix bugs like that (using black mirror as a guide)

Bugs is not quite the right word; potential for abuse, really.
Imagine creating an immortal dragon, or immortal bloodthirster.
Too many pieces of multiple equipment will let you create true combat monsters.
Maybe change equipment code so each unit can only have a single piece of equipment, and beast units can't use equipment at all?

good ideas. sheim style summoning of units from temples would be awsome.

I'd hold the summoning for the Greater Chaos Gateways (see Awakening victory thread). Make other stuff just buildable as normal. There's no Armageddon counter to make balance the gate spawning well.

id like to remove war wearyness for destruction nations and add in peace wearyness instead

I like the idea in principle, but I would tread carefully; I doubt the AI would ever understand it. But maybe just giving them insane aggression ratings (and very unwilling to make peace) would work instead.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Clearly not all unit combinations would be able to follow this path. But priests upgrading to Witch-hunters, berserkers and Magistrates seems fine. And maybe to Blazing sun knights (if these aren't a knight upgrade).

no... i dont think warrir priests would upgrade to witch hunters either. and having priests of ursun upgrade to bersearkers would result in a very stong spell caster... i just dont think priests -> inquisitors should happen...

I would repeat my old argument about metal weapons; bronze and iron strategic resources represent large qualities of high quality ores and manufacturies suitable for mass production of superior weapons, for outfitting regiments. You don't need mass-quantities of such ore to make a single decent set of metal armor and weapons.
So Magnus should still have full strength even if you don't have access to a mass-scale high quality iron weaponry.
This mod is too metal-based as it is (recon units shouldn't use metals).

more good points. agreed. and i still need to rearrange the units that use metal upgrades...

Bugs is not quite the right word; potential for abuse, really.
Imagine creating an immortal dragon, or immortal bloodthirster.
Too many pieces of multiple equipment will let you create true combat monsters.
Maybe change equipment code so each unit can only have a single piece of equipment, and beast units can't use equipment at all?

i hadnt thought about immortal dragons O_O
i believe xienwolf or someone was making an equipment mod for ffh where it limited equipment on units based on what it was, ie can only have 1 weapon equipment or 1 helmet equipment... and i agree animals and beasts should not be able to use equipment.

 

[Ahriman]

the current tech tree will *hopefully* change quite a bit, ive never liked it the way it i.

I would suggest implementing units first, and then messing around with the tech tree later. Unless you have some good tech-tree redesign ideas now.
I agree that it feels a little weird, but still seems basically functional. There needs to be an earlier means of getting city maintenance reduction, for eg.

well i wasnt thinking of the priest units to be avaliable immediately with words of salvation. strengths would have to be played around with during balancing.

I think priests belong at priesthood, no?
You can get Words of Salvation or Corruption really early (and other religions, other than spirituality, even quicker). I would suggest that its fine to develop things in waves:
a) First, religious founding, with shrine as reward for first founder.
b) Then, Hero built by first to the appropriate tech.
c) Priest units with Priesthood.
No reason for these things to all come at once.

i have actually forgotten what the base strengths of most units are (havent played the mod in forever) so im pretty much pulling random numbers out my arse

Axemen 4/5/6 depending on metals.
Spearmen 3/4/5 depending on metals.
Militia spearmen 4/5/6 with metals.
Rangers 4/5/6 with metals.
Militia swordsmen 5/6/7 with metals.
Militia archers 3/5, 4/6, 5/7 with metals.
Pikemen 5/7, 6/8, 7/9 with metals.
Halbardiers 6/7/8 with metals.
Knights 12/9 with iron.
Griffons/giants 10.
Crossbowmen 5/6/7 with metals (and city/melee bonuses).
Longbowmen 4/6, 5/7, 6/8 with metal (and city/hill bonuses).
Chariots 5/3, 6/4, 7/5 with metals.
etc.

t just seemed flavourful and fitting for grail knights, the protectors and guardiand of the Lady's sacred sites, to be good defenders.

The best defence is....

I don't exactly associate Nightingales with screeching. Is that really a canon item??
lol no neither do i. its completely non canon and i just googled 'ancient russian heroes' and found a guy called Ilya Muromets who killed a giant evil nightingale that killed people by screeching... i found it funny so decided 'what the heck, might as well use artistic liscence' any other suggestions are more than welcome

There is no canon equipment for Kislev in official armybooks?

ive never found it that powerful personally, and medic i find useless... a weakened heal spell perhaps?

Medic is very useful. It lets you heal heavily damaged units in 1-2 turns instead of 4-6.
It lets you heal in enemy territory reasonably quickly (eg I can fortify my stack outside an enemy city while I bombard down the walls with catapults, and the medic promotion lets me heal off the bombardment effects of catapults or archers in the city).
Heal lets you keep your stack of doom moving and healing every turn, and most importantly you can cast heal to increase your damaged units strength at the start of the turn, and then attack with full or nearly full strength, rather than having to press end turn and hopefully be full strength next turn (by which time you might have been bombarded again).
This is especially valuable given the wide array of bombardment style units (catapults, longbowmen etc) in this mod.
If you're really really allergic to medic a weakened heal, but I strongly recommend medic.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I would suggest implementing units first, and then messing around with the tech tree later

true that. if you browse through the team forum for Highelf and Darkelf unit design threads i have a lot of ideas put down in there...

There is no canon equipment for Kislev in official armybooks?

what armybooks? (there are none)

Medic is very useful. It lets you heal heavily damaged units in 1-2 turns instead of 4-6.
It lets you heal in enemy territory reasonably quickly (eg I can fortify my stack outside an enemy city while I bombard down the walls with catapults, and the medic promotion lets me heal off the bombardment effects of catapults or archers in the city).
Heal lets you keep your stack of doom moving and healing every turn, and most importantly you can cast heal to increase your damaged units strength at the start of the turn, and then attack with full or nearly full strength, rather than having to press end turn and hopefully be full strength next turn (by which time you might have been bombarded again).
This is especially valuable given the wide array of bombardment style units (catapults, longbowmen etc) in this mod.
If you're really really allergic to medic a weakened heal, but I strongly recommend medic.

Nice argument you convinced me

hows this for an idea. Medic 4, requires medic 3 but allows the unit to cast 'heal'. yes? no?

 

[Humakty]

Why don't we have a national heroe for each civ and some kind of unique creature tied to religion ? (WH tabletop is all about the clash of super powerfull heroes)
Corruption could bring a demon prince,elves religion could bring a dragon prince, ancestor gods could have that big dwarven anvil (doom anvil ?)...Can't find much more ideas now.

 

[Ahriman]

true that. if you browse through the team forum for Highelf and Darkelf unit design threads i have a lot of ideas put down in there...

I'll take a look at some stage.

hows this for an idea. Medic 4, requires medic 3 but allows the unit to cast 'heal'. yes? no?

That could work. Just make sure Supply Trains can't find any way to gain levels.

Why don't we have a national heroe for each civ and some kind of unique creature tied to religion ? (WH tabletop is all about the clash of super powerfull heroes)

I think there is definitely still the intention to have national heroes for civs. The ones in this thread are religious heroes that factions have to compete for; each civ will still have at least one unique buildable hero.
I would imagine that one High Elven hero would be some kind of dragon prince. You could even mount it on a dragon; remember that the dragon units have one cargo space for hero units only.
I'd also imagine that Chaos religion would be able to get some kind of demon prince - might not need to be a hero though, just a high level unique unit. A strength ~18 unit hardly needs the hero promotion to gain XP pretty quickly.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

I think there is definitely still the intention to have national heroes for civs.

amen o that. national heroes are DEFINATELY a must.

The ones in this thread are religious heroes that factions have to compete for; each civ will still have at least one unique buildable hero.

yep

I would imagine that one High Elven hero would be some kind of dragon prince. You could even mount it on a dragon; remember that the dragon units have one cargo space for hero units only.

.

that would be Caledor

I'd also imagine that Chaos religion would be able to get some kind of demon prince - might not need to be a hero though, just a high level unique unit. A strength ~18 unit hardly needs the hero promotion to gain XP pretty quickly.

once again, yep

 

[kenken244]

Since every civ will essentially have its own religion, why do you need to use the religion model at all? jsut make the units unique to the civs that correspond with the religion. then use the religion model for something else.

 

[Ahriman]

Because not every civ has its own religion.

The Empire, Kislev, Tilea, Estalia and Bretonnia share Salvation.
Norsca, Kurgan, Hung, Beastmen, Chaos Dwarves and Beastmen (and maybe Ind) share Corruption of Chaos.
Araby, Ind, Nippon and Cathay share spirituality.
Orks, Goblins, Hobgobs and Ogres share Destruction.
Lamia and Khemri share Eternal Life.
High Elf, Wood Elf and Dark Elf share elven gods.
Dwarves have Ancestor gods alone.

Each religion will only have 1 shrine, and only 1 (maybe we should make it 2 for the large ones?) hero slots. So, there is a race for co-religionists to get the shrine and hero. Competition is good (and fun).
There are lots of elements about using the religion model that are useful for these groups; diplomatic bonuses and penalties, AI understanding religion spread, inquisitions, religious victory, etc.

If there is something else you think religion could be used for, corporations could probably be adapted for that purpose, but I can't really think of anything that needs it.

If people really wanted a Cult of Khaine implemented, it could be a corporation/guild.

 

[kenken244]

but since each religion is completly different depending on which civ you are, you dont really need to use the religion system. Everything religion does now can be done by making things UU's of their civs.(civs can share UU's) The only way the religion system would be needed is if civs had more than one religion they can follow, which, if i remember correctly, they can't.

 

[Ahriman]

The religion won't necessarily be completely different for each civ, just because it is for salvation (and even then there will still be shared units like the priest missionary unit).

I would imagine that other than hero, Destruction would be the same for all greenskins.
Corruption of Chaos would probably be the same for all chaos civs.
Spirituality will probably be mostly the same.
Eternal life will mostly be the same.

There is likely to be more differentiation for old world Salvation civs because they are so much better developed in terms of fluff and canon.


Besides, what do we gain by doing what you suggest?
We lose the diplomatic benefits of civs sharing the same religion, the competition for shrine and heroes, the shrine benefit depending on other civs adopting the religion and spreading it, etc.
We also lose the ability to require that you have spread your religion to a city before being able to build some units. If religious spreading is hard, then this matters.

I think it is also intended (I argue strongly for this) that Ind should be able to adopt either Corruption OR Spirituality.

 

[Ajidica]

Sounds nice. On the peace wearriness topic, I remember Kael wanted to implement something like that is FfH, but the AI couldnt handle it. He said that if he made the AI aggressive enough to handle it, the AI would almost always be at war and be a complete pushover tech wize.

 

[Ahriman]

Yeah, thats my worry too. The AI is coded to favor building military units during wartime, and buildings in peacetime.

The only potential way around this would be to give greenskins free beakers whenever they win a battle or conquer a city (cannibalizing tech from the fallen).

Adding the Fall Further raiders trait, where units auto-pillage land they walk across, would also definitely help them economy-wise.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

@ Ken Ken: Ahriman has explained all the main reasons well i agree with what he says

peace wearyness is one of those things which will have to be implemented before we can decide how the game handles it i think...