[NFP] Renaissance Era Policy Card Elimination Thread.

[Mr. Salt]

Invention (21)
Logistics (34)
Machiavellianism (19)
Triangular Trade (21)
Wisselbanken (29)

The difference between these two cards is the bonuses provided. I was playing Portugal recently, which has a tendency to focus massively on Trade Routes as a source of yields, and even then I could make enough Gold off of normal Trade Routes that it was more than enough to run Trade Confederation instead. Wisselbanken allows you to focus on international routes by providing currencies that those routes wouldn't normally yield. That's what elevates it above Triangular Trade.

 

[Leucarum]

Invention (21)
Logistics (35)
Machiavellianism (16)
Triangular Trade (21)
Wisselbanken (29)

The production bonus is not as useful since you generally won't build many spies, and they'll probably come from high production cities. The main use is siphoning gold, and this speeds it up slightly... its not bad but even in green slots there are cards I almost always want more than Machiavellianism (19-3). Honestly not sure what to upvote... Going to throw another one at logistics (34+1) because movement is good.

 

[AntSou]

Invention (22)
Logistics (32)
Machiavellianism (16)
Triangular Trade (21)
Wisselbanken (29)

Like last time, I only join in at the end

Invention (22) (21 + 1)
Logistics (32) (35 - 3)

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1. Wisselbanken - No need to waste trade routes on domestic trade.
2. Invention - Unlike most other GP cards, this gives a huge GP boost and Workshops are easy to get.
3. Machiavelism - You can't speed up spies any other way and I don't like to wait. There's usually other important stuff to get to around this time, so I want the Spy built asap. Plus later on when I've enough of them the -25% to spy missions is useful.
4. Triangular Trade - Gold is useful, but I might have other needs for the slot.
5. Logistics - Interesting that people really value this card. I rarely use it. If I need units with extra movement I focus on Heavy Cavalry. On defence I already have roads, on offence I already get +1 from Generals. As for Civilian units, I already got the boost I need from Monumentality.
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Reply to the post below and further reasoning to Logistics:

No offense, but I'm not really buying that at all TBH. Ignoring the fact that we can't all pop a golden age monumentality any time we want to, you're still going to have plenty to do with your civilian units after that is no longer an option. And sure, roads and cavalry help your movement... but Logistics helps you move even faster with both of those. Heck, I'd probably still use Logistics even if I was playing as Gran Colombia because movement is just that useful.

Monumentality is on for three ages. You're likely getting two. Worse case scenario, one. After that:

- Your roads will be developed and extensive;
- You can rely on Hinc Sunt Dracones to move your settlers through water;
- If settling inland, you can rely on escort Light Cavalry to move your settlers. You'll have plenty of time to plan whether you'll be needing maxed Light Cavalry by the Renaissance. (You only need one, two tops).

 

[bengalryan9]

Invention (22)
Logistics (32)
Machiavellianism (17) (16+1)
Triangular Trade (18) (21-3)
Wisselbanken (29)

You all can talk all you want about how much extra gold you get from Triangular Trade, I can almost guarantee I get more from Machiavellianism, AND I get to slot in a more useful yellow card in place of Triangular Trade, AND I get a lot more flexibility since I can target techs or great works as well when I don't need the gold.

5. Logistics - Interesting that people really value this card. I rarely use it. If I need units with extra movement I focus on Heavy Cavalry. On defence I already have roads, on offence I already get +1 from Generals. As for Civilian units, I already got the boost I need from Monumentality.

No offense, but I'm not really buying that at all TBH. Ignoring the fact that we can't all pop a golden age monumentality any time we want to, you're still going to have plenty to do with your civilian units after that is no longer an option. And sure, roads and cavalry help your movement... but Logistics helps you move even faster with both of those. Heck, I'd probably still use Logistics even if I was playing as Gran Colombia because movement is just that useful.

 

[Vargas1]

Invention (19) (22-3)
Logistics (32)
Machiavellianism (17)
Triangular Trade (18)
Wisselbanken (30) (29+1)

Wisselbanken (30) - Lets your cities keep growing and be productive even as you shift to international trade for gold/tourism. Plus the extra alliance points are a nice bonus.

Invention (19) - Tough to pick a downvote at this point. I actually build quite a few IZs so use this card a fair amount. But I typically would get all the GEs anyway if I'm building many IZs - this card just helps me get them faster. Useful, but not essential. I will say to @Archon_Wing - if you get Mausoleum, Da Vinci is not bad anymore after recent changes - you can get +6 culture per workshop with him (plus two eurekas), which is pretty solid.

I can't help but wonder if this thread reaches its conclusion and triangular trade wins - and I'm the only person who thinks its trash.

Not trying to be edgy or controversial, or say anything about few versus many cities.

The reason I love these threads is to see how differently people play the game. The reason I like Triangular Trade is that it's a card that provides a benefit without in any way changing how I'm playing the game. I typically will have around 10 trade routes in the Renaissance, so slotting in TT just gives me +40 gold and +10 faith without me doing anything different from what I would normally do. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I can't think of a game I've had since the nerf where I would be able to take even partial advantage of Simultaneum in the same timeframe - the adjacency is not too tough with Australia or a terrain pantheon, but I rarely have cities with 15 pop in the Renaissance. Same with Free Market, if not more so since I usually don't pay much attention to CH adjacency. It's not that those cards wouldn't in a theoretical world provide more faith or gold; it's that I would have to define my entire playstyle around making them functional.

 

[lilnev!]

Invention (19)
Logistics (29) (32-3) Honestly I'm kind of surprised to see this so high. It has some value in warfare, but then there's a lot of competition for Red slots. And it's a fine late-game card for cultural. But otherwise, your civilians get just as much done without it, only a few turns later.
Machiavellianism (17)
Triangular Trade (18)
Wisselbanken (31) (30+1) I agree that there's a lot of playstyle dependence at this point. I like to go wide and keep settling until the land runs out. I can teleport in a trader or two to power growth in those new cities.

 

[Francel]

Invention (16) (19-3) - Maybe I was too harsh on triangular trade, so I'll choose something else to downvote today. I don't think invention is bad, but the second worst among what's left. Patronizing with gold and faith will always be a more reliable way of securing great people, at least on higher difficulties, in my experience. If you aren't patronizing, you'll probably get the guy who gives free walls instead of the one you most desire. Anyway, not everyone can finish at the top.
Logistics (29)
Machiavellianism (17)
Triangular Trade (18)
Wisselbanken (32) (31+1) - A lot of people have pointed out (correctly, in my estimation) that the extra yields from Wisselbanken are preferable to the extra yields from triangular trade. I don't remember seeing too many people mention the extra points towards alliances. Alliances can be quite useful, and shine most at the highest tier. The quicker you reach level 3, the better.

 

[InsidiousMage]

Invention (17) (16+1) I'll be honest and just say that GE's are my favorite type of GP.
Logistics (29)
Machiavellianism (14) (17-3) More honesty, I just forget to keep up with my spies, generally only find them useful for catching up on science in a culture game or defending space ports in a science victory and the Siphon Funds mission gets you money based on the length of the mission so this actually gets you less money per mission.
Triangular Trade (18)
Wisselbanken (32)

 

[hhhhhh]

Invention (17)
Logistics (30) (29+1) If you really have an empire and need to move units around, then you know how important it is. It's basically +25% - 50% movements. If you play against capable players or if AI is a little smarter, then this policy will be a lot more important.
Machiavellianism (11) (14-3) I like spies but it's probably time for this one to go.
Triangular Trade (18)
Wisselbanken (32)

Also... I JUST FOUND THIS ELIMINATION THREAD IS MESSED UP A LITTLE. NATIVE CONQUEST is an INDUSTRIAL era policy. And PRESS GANGS, a real RENAISSANCE military policy, never appeared in the list. I should have checked this a little earlier, but I didn't.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Invention (17)
Logistics (30) (29+1) If you really have an empire and need to move units around, then you know how important it is. It's basically +25% - 50% movements. If you play against capable players or if AI is a little smarter, then this policy will be a lot more important.
Machiavellianism (11) (14-3) I like spies but it's probably time for this one to go.
Triangular Trade (18)
Wisselbanken (32)

Also... I JUST FOUND THIS ELIMINATION THREAD IS MESSED UP A LITTLE. NATIVE CONQUEST is an INDUSTRIAL era policy. And PRESS GANGS, a real RENAISSANCE military policy, never appeared in the list. I should have checked this a little earlier, but I didn't.

That's an oops. I think you copied from the wiki, I just checked, we switched the two cards without anyone realizing. AND that page is updated regularly too! Really sorry about that, I made the changes. But I guess we all agree Native Conquest is a terrible card and no one runs, that's why no one pays attention which era it comes in


Invention (17)
Logistics (30)
Machiavellianism (11)
Triangular Trade (15) I find this card a bit overrated. To me, it functions in the same way as Drill Manuals: it helps you do better when you already do well in that aspect, it cannot help go from bad to good a.k.a. not a game changing card.
Wisselbanken (33) On the other hand, this makes late settling quite a viable strategy, since this card helps your little new settlements grow incredibly fast and become productive early.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

That's an oops. I think you copied from the wiki, I just checked, we switched the two cards without anyone realizing. AND that page is updated regularly too! Really sorry about that, I made the changes. But I guess we all agree Native Conquest is a terrible card and no one runs, that's why no one pays attention which era it comes in

Yeah, I did. Confound my laziness...

 

[evahappy]

Invention (17)
Logistics (30)
Machiavellianism (11)
Triangular Trade (16) 15+1
Wisselbanken (30) 33-3

While benefits from Wisselbanken are by far superior to benefits from Triangular Trade, the requirement of having an ally makes it ultra situational.
When playing on Tiny/Small maps with 6 or less players, most of civs would be hostile towards you (for warmongering, spreading religion, building wonders, grabbing good land and so on). With such game setup most likely you won't have any allies to get any good from Wisselbanken.
Triangular Trade passively boosts what you'll be doing anyway - sending some trade routes, all of those trade routes would get the bonus, regardless of their destination.
Yes, if i manage to ally some rival civ, i might prefer Wisselbanken over Triangular Trade, but this happens pretty rare.
I admit that with different game setup / playstyle thing can go different way.

 

[blok]

Invention (14) (17-3) While Great Engineers are good and all, They aren't this good. Generally, I'll have an Industrial Zone with a workshop up by the time this card is unlocked, so I just don't really need GE points over other cards I'd rather use.
Logistics (30)
Machiavellianism (11)
Triangular Trade (16)
Wisselbanken (31) (30+1) I find that in the Renaissance era I am colonizing, exploring, and just generally expanding over the map. Wisselbanken helps get these new cities up and productive much faster without sacrificing an economic policy slot like Triangular Trade.

 

[canadamufc]

Invention (11) (14-3) Great Engineers aren't as competitive as say, Great Scientists. Also, this is the only card left that's a Wildcard policy, so I believe that should be taken into account as well.
Logistics (30)
Machiavellianism (11)
Triangular Trade (16)
Wisselbanken (32) (31+1) If I had to pick a card to win this would be it. So much food and production, and it's pretty easy to get said food and production. Have a city that's building a wonder? Pump trade routes into it with Wisselbanken + Democracy. Have a city that's struggling? Once again, trade routes. This card has so much flexibility that puts it above the rest.

 

[Mount Suribachi]

Invention (11)
Logistics (27)
Machiavellianism (12)
Triangular Trade (16)
Wisselbanken (32)

Logistics 27 (30-3): It's proponents have made a passionate defence of it, but I have never used this card, unlike all the others left. So there's no way I can in good conscience downvote anything else

Machiavellianism 12 (11+1): As I said last time I upvoted it, I don't use this card as much as I should.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Invention (12)
Logistics (30)
Machiavellianism (9)
Triangular Trade (16)
Wisselbanken (32)

Invention (11+1=12) It's probably about time for the best Great Person card to go but not before Machiavellianism (12-3=9), I've enabled spies for my current game so maybe if we do this again some time I'll have a different perspective!

 

[Drivingrevilo]

Also has there really not been a wonder elimination thread yet?

We had one about six months ago, give or take. If I recall correctly, the Pyramids won and Kilwa came second. And the rest of the top 10 were predictable too (Temple of Artemis, Forbidden City, Big Ben, etc.)

Invention (12)
Logistics (24)(27-3)
Machiavellianism (9)
Triangular Trade (16)
Wisselbanken (33)(32+1)

Logistics (24)(27-3) Haven't voted in a few days, but I'm mildly perturbed to see Logistics at the top. This is not something I agree with.

Yes, it is nice to have extra movement; but do I ever prioritise this card over other options? Not at all. 99% of my games go Classical Republic –> Merchant Republic –> Democracy, which leaves me with one military card slot for the majority of the game; and almost all the time, that card will be (or should be) Veterancy, mixed in with the upgrade-discount-cards.

This card is a luxury. It is something you only plug in when you really, really don't have anything else to do, including Veterancy. It should not win this thread.

Wisselbanken (33)(32+1) It was always good, and now it's even better. Useful for getting new cities up and running, useful for mid-game spike in your central cities, useful for end-game when you're firing off the space projects. I slot it in as soon as I unlock it and it never leaves.

Edit: quick reply to this comment, which I've just spotted:
'the requirements of having an ally make it ultra situational'.
Since one of the recent patches, Wisselbanken also applies to your suzerained city-states. So if you're doing a domination game (or if everyone hates you for some reason), all you need to do is have one city-state nearby for Wisselbanken to work. And most likely, you'll have four or five friendly city-states near you, which means you can get nearly as much use out of it in a no-alliance game as in an alliance game.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Invention (12)
Logistics (25) 24+1 A very flexible card as it applies to all units. The extra builder movement is good for planting trees and resorts in cultural victories, and also for rushing builders to finish space projects. It's also very powerful for first strikes and you can get yourself surrounding enemy cities much faster. It also helps siege units a lot.
Machiavellianism (9)
Triangular Trade (13) 16-3 Although it's used a fair bit, it is also the card I'm most willing to swap out. It's good to pile up some extra gold, but gold isn't that valuable as the game goes along
Wisselbanken (33)

Also... I JUST FOUND THIS ELIMINATION THREAD IS MESSED UP A LITTLE. NATIVE CONQUEST is an INDUSTRIAL era policy. And PRESS GANGS, a real RENAISSANCE military policy, never appeared in the list. I should have checked this a little earlier, but I didn't.

Maybe we should just leave out Native Conquest next time and save some time as we've done it here and it's so bad anyways. As for Press Gangs, the fact that nobody remembered about it is probably a strike against it though I use it every now and then if I didn't make ships early game and need a fleet.

 

[aieeegrunt]

Invention (21)
Logistics (35) 34 +1
Machiavellianism (19)
Triangular Trade (24)
Wisselbanken (25). 28-3

Logistics: gets around some of the UPT restrictions and often lets builders move and build on the same turn, getting you those yields a turn or two quicker over and over.

Wisselbank: If gold wasn’t so easy to get this would be powerful, but honestly I only ever send international trade routes for envoy/diplomacy reasons because the production/food boost from internal trade, as well as the roads are far better than simply being “slightly richer Croesus”.

The only saving grace is it being a Diplomatic card and diplomatic slots being so useless, and even then I never use it

 

[JhGf_123]

Really not sure what happened with the previous poster's scores.... If I'm correct, these should be the scores at the start of my vote:

Invention (12)
Logistics (26)
Machiavellianism (9)
Triangular Trade (13)
Wisselbanken (30)

So now my vote:

Invention (9)(12-3)
Logistics (26)
Machiavellianism (9)
Triangular Trade (13)
Wisselbanken (31)(30+1)

Invention: I intend to get involved in the Logistics debate soon (spoiler: I don't use it often), but for now it's a downvote for Invention. In my experience, building one or two early industrial zones (to enable the Industrialization eureka) is enough to secure most of the early Great Engineers. Then once you rush your factories, you've got a total lockdown on all of them. So why is Invention necessary?

Wisselbanken: the clear winner IMO. Internal trade routes are good at the very beginning, but external trade routes rapidly become the better option with Wisselbanken & Democracy. If you really "never" run Wisselbanken, you're doing something very very wrong.