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Renewel and Rejuvenation

Strider

In Retrospect
Joined
Jan 7, 2002
Messages
8,984
This game still suffers from bad organization and the continued used of traditional methods that no longer make sense. As I predicted at the start of this game, if we organized everything where it is easily reachable, we could possibly double our partcipation. While I'm not quite sure we can match my prediction now, we can still significantly increase our partcipation levels.

I'm not going to go into great detail right now, I don't have the time, but I will cover the basics:

  • Improve the Forum Organization (will go into MUCH greater detail later)
  • Extension of the Information Department
  • Summaries, of almost everything.
  • Reduction in the length of turnchats
  • Improved and more detailed polling standards
  • Heavy Modifications to the Freedom of Information clause
  • Elimination of game aspects that have failed

I will go into detail with alot of these (and many other things) when I have the time. I've gotta finished Advanced Physics, Advanced Placement History, and Calc homework right now. :( :eek:
 
You heard it here first, but I think that Strider will have himself an unlikely ally in the form of one Donovan Zoi this term.....and beyond? :mischief:

While I plan to put most of my talents into our savegame woes, I agree that our nation is in dire need of "presentation" reform on several fronts. I will do everything within my power and schedule to help you bring these proposals to light.

A few ideas I have had:

* Asking one of our moderators to post my inaugeral (welcome) address on the Front Page, as well as an announcement in the Stories and Tales thread. This thread may be our best bet if I am able to sell the "interactive" story. ;)

* Bring back the Census Office, and with it the opportunity for newcomers (and veterans) to choose which of our five cities to live in.

If these two ideas work in tandem, we could set the groundwork for a more city-centric style of voting (governor elections, city referendums). But of course, I am a realist and feel that some of Strider's suggestions should be tackled before this overly ambitious idea.

I'll let you take the lead on some of your proposals, Strider, and add more of my thoughts later.
 
Strider said:
[*]Extension of the Information Department

is this against the Information Office? i've been working hard, i don't see what's wrong with it. :(


i like all your other ideas though.

btw, i do plan on doing a lot of stuff with the city next term, including landmarks and such...and you can only participate if you reside in the Augean Stables. so anyone living in the other 2 cities right now, should pack up and move to the city on the great northern frontier. :D
 
greekguy said:
is this against the Information Office? i've been working hard, i don't see what's wrong with it. :(

i like all your other ideas though.

It's not against the information office in the least bit, you've done a great job so far, and I want to give you the ability to do more. Of course, you may have to kidnap some people to aid you, but I think you might like the changes I plan on implementing.

CivLord said:
What do you mean with that?

I mean, the orginal [current] law completely sucks and I want to redo it. I created it anyway.

Freedom of Information said:
All elected officials will create an official thread. This thread will be used to provide updates to the citizens about their office. The information in this thread should updated frequently in order to accurately reflect the current game situation.

------------

Anyway, I'll start detailing everything after supper. Only thing I had to eat today was a sour fruit gusher, which unluckily got lodged in my throat. (Very unpleasent experience.. even more so as it was sour)
 
no offense but what is wrong with the freedom of information law?
 
I agree, we should have a little spice added to the demogame.
 
Okay, it's time for some details:

Improving Forum Organization:
Okay, first things first. Move the damnded turnchat instruction thread! No one looks in the main forums, except during election times (I went two to three days not even knowing term 2 elections were posted. I just never look there). Put the turnchat instruction threads inside of the citizen forums. When a new instruction thread is posted, have it stickied. When the turnchat is completed, and the save and a summary have been posted then close the thread and allow it to sink down. It'll get more attention there, and hopefully allow our citizens a better oppertunity to see instructions.

Another thing we need, a turnchat registry. Fairly simple and straight forward, when a turnchat is completed, the DP puts the date, # of turns played, and a link to the instruction thread. One stop shop for any save or turnchat you want.

The Polling standards sticky inside of the Polls forum. The idea of this, was to allow people to see the Polling standards, without having to muck through the constitution. Would have worked perfectly, if it wasn't for the absense of the polling standards inside of that thread (hell, do we even have polling standards?). We either need to make some, or get the current ones in that thread.

Unsticky the current FAQ thread, and replace it with a "Welcome to the Demogame" type thing. Inside of this thread, make a quick explantion of how to get started inside of the demogame. Have links to the constitution, citizen registry, and the (now unstickied) FAQ thread. Also, we need to 'clean' the FAQ thread up some. Delete some of the posts.

Extension of the Information Department
The Information Department, to me, is extremely important. I would like to make it a real elected poistion. We have to get as much information as possible on the forums, and all of our efforts so far have been unable to meet the necessary requirements. Greekguy has done a great job with what is available to him, but let's give him more to work with. Here's what I want to do summarize:

  • Make the Information Department a Judicial non-voting elected poistion.
  • Put this department incharge of all non-game (Civ3 game) related affairs. This includes Forum Organization, Newbie threads, etc.

Please note, that when the above list was first devised I imagined many more bullet points. However, those bullet points seem to have disappeared in the transition from my imagination to text.

There is still alot I'm debating about with this, so I'm just going to post this much of my plans for the Information Department right now. See what the reactions are before I continue.

Summaries, of almost everything
Pretty simple concept, but I'm at a lost as to how to make it possible. Force the ministers to post summaries, make it a duty of the newly founded Information Office? It seemed more possible when I concieved it.

Reduction in the length of turnchats
Pretty simple, turnchats are long and usually hard on the DP. We can shorten the amount of time needed to run a turnchat, by allowing elected officials the oppertunity to do some of there instructions themselves. Allow Mayors to set build-queue's for there cities, that way the DP doesn't have to set them in the pre-turn. Of course, were have to set-up some detailed laws and "do's and don'ts" to stop abuse. However, it will pratically eliminate the need of a pre-turn. It will also jumpstart some of our planning. Of course, the only person who is allowed to pass a turn would be the DP.

Improved and more detailed polling standards
Pretty simple concept. I currently see polls that lack the information needed to make a informed decision, are mis-leading, and in all honesty they suck ass. Improve on the polling standards, hammer these standards into leaders heads, then go into hiding. Fairly simple, the question is how we should improve them.

More on this later, I've gotta dig through some crap still

Freedom of Information
This will be short, if people take to my Information Department concept, then we can eliminate this article. If not, then we need to modify it. That, or atleast pull it out of the hippo's ass.

-----------------

Some more things I would like to bring up:

Roleplay:
Despite promises at the start of this game, that there will be much more roleplay, there is pratically none. Any ideas on how to change this?

The DP Pool
It seems to be causing more problems then it solves, should we remove it?
 
ok, basically everything you said for forum organization i agree with. a polling standards thread it really a great idea and so is a turnchat registry.

i think the DP pool is working pretty well. it allows more people to go out for DP, since they only do one chat. the only problem is, since it's a different person everytime, it's hard to get a schedule. i think if in the Term 2 DP Pool thread they worked out a schedule, it would be ok. they just need to figure who will go when, etc...

1 more thing you didn't have there, that i think we should do. i really think the DP should be required by law to post how many turns they plan on playing in a Turnchat. that way leaders can make instructions for the time alloted and citizens know how far the game will progress.
 
i also agree with everything, except the information office. you said to eliminate the freedom of information law. that means officals won't make government threads. i strongly disagree with that. true the information office has some of things you need, but it doesn't have up to date info on each city, or screenshots of the actual game. no offense to Greekguy though. i think the info office is fine as is, it lets people see the adisor screens to see a general overview of the game, but i feel it is best to let the officals concentrate on their particular specialty, mine being the military, icmanacins being the foreign affairs, etc... if the information office does this then the officals won't be able to post updates in their threads, it will also eliminate a big part of the officals jobs. you could of of course but the officals in the information office, but whats the point i would do the same thing that i'm doing now with my government thread.
 
greekguy said:
1 more thing you didn't have there, that i think we should do. i really think the DP should be required by law to post how many turns they plan on playing in a Turnchat. that way leaders can make instructions for the time alloted and citizens know how far the game will progress.

I did kind of go over this, the turnchat registry idea under forum organization.

vikingruler said:
i also agree with everything, except the information office. you said to eliminate the freedom of information law. that means officals won't make government threads. i strongly disagree with that. true the information office has some of things you need, but it doesn't have up to date info on each city, or screenshots of the actual game. no offense to Greekguy though. i think the info office is fine as is, it lets people see the adisor screens to see a general overview of the game, but i feel it is best to let the officals concentrate on their particular specialty, mine being the military, icmanacins being the foreign affairs, etc... if the information office does this then the officals won't be able to post updates in their threads, it will also eliminate a big part of the officals jobs. you could of of course but the officals in the information office, but whats the point i would do the same thing that i'm doing now with my government thread.

Officials are still required to make government threads. Also, elected officials have continuously failed to post enough information to validate themselves, much less to allow people to make an informed decision. I shouldn't have to load up the save, check the war academy, and then make a search to look for a help article, just for I can type "I agree with what ??? said." It's utter bull****, allow the officials to concentrate on important in-game matters. It's easier.
 
Strider said:
Okay, it's time for some details:

Improving Forum Organization:
Okay, first things first. Move the damnded turnchat instruction thread! No one looks in the main forums, except during election times (I went two to three days not even knowing term 2 elections were posted. I just never look there). Put the turnchat instruction threads inside of the citizen forums. When a new instruction thread is posted, have it stickied. When the turnchat is completed, and the save and a summary have been posted then close the thread and allow it to sink down. It'll get more attention there, and hopefully allow our citizens a better oppertunity to see instructions.
Your suggestion is based on a false premise, that no one looks in the main forum. Only one person is required to make this premise false.

The TCIT has always been where it is, and it should always stay where it is.

Another thing we need, a turnchat registry. Fairly simple and straight forward, when a turnchat is completed, the DP puts the date, # of turns played, and a link to the instruction thread. One stop shop for any save or turnchat you want.
This was always a good idea. We had one last game. The problem is always the extra time and effort to keep it current. Under the current system it should be easier than it used to be.

Unsticky the current FAQ thread, and replace it with a "Welcome to the Demogame" type thing. Inside of this thread, make a quick explantion of how to get started inside of the demogame. Have links to the constitution, citizen registry, and the (now unstickied) FAQ thread. Also, we need to 'clean' the FAQ thread up some. Delete some of the posts.
Go ahead and write it. You've been saying for months this needs to be done, and nobody is keeping you from doing it. However, do it in addition to the FAQ, not instead of the FAQ.
 
Strider said:
Reduction in the length of turnchats
Pretty simple, turnchats are long and usually hard on the DP. We can shorten the amount of time needed to run a turnchat, by allowing elected officials the oppertunity to do some of there instructions themselves. Allow Mayors to set build-queue's for there cities, that way the DP doesn't have to set them in the pre-turn. Of course, were have to set-up some detailed laws and "do's and don'ts" to stop abuse. However, it will pratically eliminate the need of a pre-turn. It will also jumpstart some of our planning. Of course, the only person who is allowed to pass a turn would be the DP.
Right now, our problem has been too much eagerness on the part of DPs to play too many turns because the turns are short. :rolleyes:

The only things which can be done preturn are queues and trades where the opportunity for the trade is on the 1st turn. With only a maximum of 12 cities, the preturn tasks are reduced to teh point that this has limited chance of making a real difference in the workload.

Improved and more detailed polling standards
Pretty simple concept. I currently see polls that lack the information needed to make a informed decision, are mis-leading, and in all honesty they suck ass. Improve on the polling standards, hammer these standards into leaders heads, then go into hiding. Fairly simple, the question is how we should improve them.
Hmm, I haven't seen many polls this game which have the problem you cite. Taking some examples, recently we have had polls on a CoL amendment (very good), Iron Working trade (good), Philo vs Lit (excellent), Embassy (good), Placement of City 3 (good poll, though illegal).

Nope, don't see any problem polls here. :)

Roleplay:
Despite promises at the start of this game, that there will be much more roleplay, there is pratically none. Any ideas on how to change this?
I tried, and got ignored to the point where I wondered if people were avoiding my threads like they would get plague or something. :( Maybe you can do better.

The DP Pool
It seems to be causing more problems then it solves, should we remove it?

The DP pool did exactly what it was meant to do, and didn't necessarily cause problems. If anything caused problems it was lack of instructions. It would probably help however if the President (or a designee) actively managed the DP pool instead of just letting it happen.
 
DaveShack said:
Your suggestion is based on a false premise, that no one looks in the main forum. Only one person is required to make this premise false.

Yet, it takes just one person to make it true. You can not refute my claim that they will receive more attention inside of the citizens forum. Sorry, but there is no possible arguement against this. You say that you look inside of the main forum, although I can guarantee you that you must also look inside of the citizens forum. I say that I only look inside of the citizens forum. Do the calculations.

DaveShack said:
The TCIT has always been where it is, and it should always stay where it is.

"Has always" must be a limited timeframe, because it's been elsewhere. Remeber your talking to someone who's been here sense the first DG.

DaveShack said:
Go ahead and write it. You've been saying for months this needs to be done, and nobody is keeping you from doing it. However, do it in addition to the FAQ, not instead of the FAQ.

Nope, sorry. I'm sticking to my promise, untill most people stop acting like there shoe size, I'm going to let them deal with it themselves.

DaveShack said:
Right now, our problem has been too much eagerness on the part of DPs to play too many turns because the turns are short.

Yes, I wouldn't expect you to say otherwise. :rolleyes:

Were get to this later, when the problems really start to manifest.

DaveShack said:
Hmm, I haven't seen many polls this game which have the problem you cite. Taking some examples, recently we have had polls on a CoL amendment (very good), Iron Working trade (good), Philo vs Lit (excellent), Embassy (good), Placement of City 3 (good poll, though illegal).

COL Amendment:
Fails to provide a link to the discussion thread, and any Judicial Reviews over the proposed article.

Iron Working Trade:
Once again, fails to provide a link(s) to any revelent threads. Also fails to state the length of the poll.

Philo vs Lit:
While it did manage to provide a link to the discussion thread, it left out revelent information for our non-conquests citizens. Philsophy does not give a free tech inside of Vanilla and PTW. It also failed to state the length of the poll, and did not include a link to the revelent department.

As the placement of City 3 was already illegal, I'm not even going to bother looking at it.

DaveShack said:
I tried, and got ignored to the point where I wondered if people were avoiding my threads like they would get plague or something. Maybe you can do better.

Simply amazing, I didn't see that coming! :rolleyes:

People avoided them like the plagues, because of my earlier comments. The minute I said that an RPG with 5BC was doomed to failure, was the minute it actually became doomed to fail. Why the hell do you think I keep the majority of my plans mostly secret untill I have a good framework?

This is entirely the wrong time to post this discussion. I don't see any of this actually happening (no matter how badly it's needed), and I don't expect it to turn into anything more than a debate.
 
Strider said:
Simply amazing, I didn't see that coming! :rolleyes:

People avoided them like the plagues, because of my earlier comments. The minute I said that an RPG with 5BC was doomed to failure, was the minute it actually became doomed to fail.

Really? People are role-playing less because you said an RPG was doomed? Let me see now, who was it that said we have too little role play and that was what is killing the game? I thought it was you who said that. If you doomed role play, and less roleplay doomed the demogame, then what does that mean?

Once again I say, if your purpose is to help the game then actually do something which helps the game.
 
DaveShack said:
Really? People are role-playing less because you said an RPG was doomed? Let me see now, who was it that said we have too little role play and that was what is killing the game? I thought it was you who said that. If you doomed role play, and less roleplay doomed the demogame, then what does that mean?

Once again I say, if your purpose is to help the game then actually do something which helps the game.

When did I ever say the game was doomed, because of lack of roleplay? It certainly hurts the game, but not more than 5BC or numerous other proposals has. Once again, DaveShack, you have proven yourself incompetent. I've offered you my condolences once, not only did you betray my trust, you betrayed the game.

You do nothing more than divid the demogame in two, you attack your oppenents, and try to ruin the reputation of those you disagree with.

I offered you my aid once, and you accepted. You betrayed me, and I'm not about to bend my back over again. You have to be joking, if you seriously think I'm going to aid people, who greet me like you have.

Yet, even with my current "oath" that I won't do anything, I've still commented and played a small role in the current FAQ guides, although the real praise and glory is with GreekGuy and peter_grimes.

It's as simple as this, I am content to sit here and let you destroy the game. I will remain here to pick up the pieces. However, inorder to fix the game you must receive my support, something you are far from doing. It is your choice, you have one last chance to prove to me, wether you are truely a divider, or a uniter.

-----------------

Moving to the actual plans, as I mentioned earlier, we can pratically eliminate the pre-turn. However, while the pre-turn does take up a good portion of the turnchat, it is far from making up the majority of it. That's why I want to start basing the length of turnchats on a set of goals, rather then the number of turns passed.

"What does that do to help shorten turnchats?" Well, I really have no idea. It just seemed to have done so when I thought of it (and no.. I wasn't drunk. Well, not that I know of anyway). What this does seem to do, in my more logical mind (or illogical, almost impossible to tell) is allow us to plan alot better. The President cooridiants a set of goals for each turnchat, and the turnchat ends with that set of goals is completed.

Fairly simple, well for me anyway. Any comments? Curses?

You know, this game was how I realized that duck tape can't fix everything. :(
 
It's as simple as this, I am content to sit here and let you destroy the game. I will remain here to pick up the pieces. However, inorder to fix the game you must receive my support, something you are far from doing. It is your choice, you have one last chance to prove to me, wether you are truely a divider, or a uniter.

Quite an, umm, interesting comment.

-- Ravensfire
 
Strider said:
The DP Pool
It seems to be causing more problems then it solves, should we remove it?
That has been the best feature of this constitution! Because DPs only need to do 1 chat, many more people have the chance to play the game, and the President focuses on leading and not playing the game...
 
The one thing that needs to be done with the DP pool is to remind people when they are up and on deck. I started doing that last turn, and got overwhelmed with work. I've started it here, but DZ is stepping up as President and making sure things go smoothly.

With this system, that's part of the role of the President - making sure things get done and everything works smoothly. With a bit of planning, and some messages to people a week or so ahead of time, that job won't take much time. As people get into the swing of things, less and less effort will be needed.

-- Ravensfire
 
ravensfire said:
The one thing that needs to be done with the DP pool is to remind people when they are up and on deck. I started doing that last turn, and got overwhelmed with work. I've started it here, but DZ is stepping up as President and making sure things go smoothly.

With this system, that's part of the role of the President - making sure things get done and everything works smoothly. With a bit of planning, and some messages to people a week or so ahead of time, that job won't take much time. As people get into the swing of things, less and less effort will be needed.

-- Ravensfire

I'll take your word on it at the moment. What about the half-dozen other things I've posted? Any comment?
 
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