Rep Hit when attacking 'unknown' civ?

[Stapel]

The main conclusion: We do not exactly know how 'bad actions' influence our reputation. Could anyone from Firaxis explain?

Another option: I can imagine the reputation factor is a number somewhere in the program. Maybe some wizkid can find out where it is and check how it changes?

 

[Bamspeedy]

I have never had a problem with another civ not accepting a deal when I broke a deal with an 'unknown' civ. I pulled it off all game long in GOTM 17.

However, in my 'AI attitude' test (in the strategy articles forum), I found that the other AI, DO KNOW if you use a NUKE on an unknown civ. They won't talk about it, but you do get a large 'attitude' hit.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Bamspeedy: so it probably is the low severity of the hit that makes my tests ambiguous....

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
Catt, TNO: I made sure I had the money in question (I.e. I kept trying lower amounts, too, I never got anything but the flat no).

I do think the rep hit is small, after all the Ai was willing to trust me on lux for lux.

I *think* the hit is less than if they know the other civ, whether or not they have deals going. I suspect the strong hits are due to ROPs that you end.

Killer: The AI will always accept lux for lux deals (if it is otherwise fair) regardless of your reputation, so the fact that they accepted this means nothing. Only deals where the AI gives something instant and you give something for 20 turns are out of the question if you have a bad rep.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

TNO: I also tested that, offering money per for stuff. Now I am glad I did

 

[TheNiceOne]

Indeed Killer, that test was the one which proved that other civs get to know what's going on even without contact (assuming your test was correctly set up).

My memories about this from my games starts fading - I'm not sure that I've really checked this in my games. What I remember though is that when I've attacked the civ on my continent, the attitude hit that I would suffer from other civs will not come into effect before they get contact with my victim. So I have simply assumed that this is the case for reputation as well.

I guess my citizens eventually tell the other civs how we screwed the now-dead victim.

 

[Stapel]

There are always survivors I guess.....

 

[Aggie]

Thanks Killer for this test.

 

[Catt]

I'm still confused at Killer's results, just because they seem to go against even some very recent in-game experiences I've had. If I am going to employ the "Arrian Deception" I usually take full advantage -- i.e., I might almost destroy a civ, but make peace so as to extort all available technology; to be even nastier, I might then offer gold on a per-turn basis to buy whatever "second level" techs the AI had but that I couldn't get in a peace treaty (because I didn't have the pre-requisites before my tech extortion). The end game to the Deception is of course a surprise attack of the lowest honor and shocking treachery-- breaching my 20 turn peace treaty, breaching my 20-turn gpt for technology deals, and attacking with units in enemy territory. As long as I completely destroy the civ in question before outside contact, I have no trouble buying technology on a gpt basis if I so choose.

 

[Padma]

I agree with Catt. My experience has been the same as his (although I haven't employed the "Arrian Deception" as fully ). I, too, am confused.

 

[alamo]

I used the fool's peace trick in the Tourney 4-4 game, too.

Greeks and Persians stuck on a contient. Archer rush took them down, made a short peace to be sure we got alll techs and regroup, then finished them off. Contact was made some time later w/no obvious rep problem.

It was Monarch level, so the price for contacts, maps were already exorbitant.

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by Padma
. . . (although I haven't employed the "Arrian Deception" as fully ) . . .

I should have thrown an RoP into the deal, too, for sheer perfidy's sake :flamedevi

 

[Ayatollah So]

Originally posted by Stapel
There are always survivors I guess.....

But you're forgetting who writes the history books. Under authoritarian forms of government, within a few generations, even the leaders will buy their own story that it was their Civ, not the eliminated Civ, that was surprise-attacked.

I think those who predicted that the "Arrian Deception" would work in Civ3 were only overlooking one thing. Using logic and realism to predict the workings of Civ3 is an extremely unreliable method.

 

[Catt]

I was so intrigued with the seemingly conflicting results and experiences that I set up a scenario in PTW v1.21 to test it. I can post the scenario in the evening (USA PST time) if there is interest.

The scenario has the following properties:

Two landmasses separated by Ocean.
4 Civs; 1 Human and 3 AI civs
Human (Rome) and one AI (Egypt) share a landmass
AI (Greece) and AI (Babylon) share another landmass.

The human starts with susbstantially all technologies except Monarchy and Republic. It enjoys an empire of a dozen or so cities, all at pop 12, with sufficient happiness improvements and available luxuries to prevent riots. Each human city has a temple, cathedral, market, bank, and stock exchange , and those cities on the coast have a harbor, and commercial dock as well. The human starts with 1,000,000 in gold and as a Democracy. The human also has 3 modern armor and two battleships. (this set-up ensures substantial gpt income with the science slider set to 0%).

Poor Egypt has one town (size 1) with one warrior defending. It does start with Monarchy and 100 gold.

Each of Greece and Babylon have several towns (size 1) with harbors and possess 100 gold and knowledge of the Republic.

On turn one, the human player contacts Egypt and establishes an embassy. With the embassy up and running, the human enters into 5 separate deals: (1) MPP; (2) RoP; (3) human buys Monarchy for 55 gpt; (4) human sells silks for 25 gold lump sum; and human buys world map for 1 gpt.

On turn two, the human moves the MA into Egyptian territory and surrounds Thebes. A look at the active deals shows all 5 deals with 19 turns to go. The human attacks without a declaration -- constituting an RoP rape and the breach of 4 other deals. Egypt is destroyed ("Good! They deserved it!" ).

In that same turn, one human battleship contacts Babylon and one contacts Greece. With embassies established in both capitols, each of the newly discovered civs are quite happy to enter into: (1) MPPs; (2) RoPs; (3) sale of either Republic or World Map for a gpt payment; and (4) purchase of a luxury for a lump sum.

This scenario would seem to prove that the Arrian Deception does in fact work.

Killer, I would hold off on updating the FAQ until we figure out why we're seeing discrepancies in how the game handles the "unknown civ" phenomenon.

 

[Aggie]

Catt, this is a very solid test. It actually has the results that I would expect in the first place.

One thing I'm very curious about though... What happens if you know Greece or Rome but they do not know about the Egyptians?

I had two games lately with this situation. I didn't know if it would be a problem for my rep to attack or not...

 

[Stapel]

Interesting! I'm very curious what Killer has to say!

Could post the scenario Catt?

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Catt, that is really weird... my test secnario was a bit less refined though.... Still, you did what I did and we get different AI behaviour.....

 

[Stapel]

Can you post your scenario too Killer?

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by Aggie
One thing I'm very curious about though... What happens if you know Greece or Rome but they do not know about the Egyptians?

I had two games lately with this situation. I didn't know if it would be a problem for my rep to attack or not...

As long as you don't trade communications or allow them to make contact on their own, you should be fine (at least according to my test scenario . . . )

And here is the scenario - again PTW v1.21 scenario. [Note that since the attachment feature doesn't accept .bix files, the scenario is zipped in a winzip file].

 

[Stapel]

txs! will try somewhere this weekend.