Replace public schools with the free market?

[WindFish]

This idea is so MoRonic that not even Adam Smith himself was for a fully private education system

 

[History_Buff]

Adam Smith would be horrified at the sort of corporate dominated market space we have today. It's not really what he imagined at all.

 

[WindFish]

Adam Smith would be horrified at the sort of corporate dominated market space we have today. It's not really what he imagined at all.

No it wasn't.

Adam Smith was for ethical and compassionate capitalism. Not the Social Darwinian objectivism/libertarianism

 

[Evie]

Unless I've really mistaken how Ottawa runs things, you can chose to send your kid to a Catholic school here for free, where the tuition is paid for by the city out of the same pool that pays for the public schools.

I think it's a load of crap.

Up here meant Quebec. I'm not really versed into how elementary/secondary school work in Ontario.

The Catholic school systems business is the result of Ontario being dumbassed. When the constitution was written all school boards were religious, so the constitution guaranteed protection for the minority religion group. Another act of ethnic balance between (by and large protestant) anglophones and (by and large Catholic) francophones. Then Ontario abolished its own Catholics school network because, hey, assimilation is fun. They tried to get away with "Well Catholics can have their own networks but they have to pay for it!". The Supreme Court felt that was not altogether constitutional, so told Ontario to pay already. So now they're stuck, and all because they tried to be jerks about it.

Meanwhile the Province Next Door just maintained two parallel school boards systems, under the same amount of state control, until we got bored of it sometime in the nineties, and figured it would be swell to have it all be secular. So we asked the federal to change the constitution, and they added a "Does not apply to Québec" clause to that part of the constitution. We still have a dual school board system, but now it's francophone/anglophone, not Catholic/Protestant.

And Newfoundland went from two constitutionally protected parallel school boards to three such (got Pentecostal boards added), then decided "Ah, what the heck" and followed Quebec's example.

 

[galdre]

I say go the other way - the wealthy (who have the most say in policy, since wealth is power) have no interest in making public schools work well because their kids go to private schools. So get rid of private schools completely; make everyone go to public schools, and ensure all schools get the same money no matter where they are.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Or instead of banning private schools, tax people who send their kids to them to prop up the public schools.

 

[History_Buff]

We still have a dual school board system, but now it's francophone/anglophone, not Catholic/Protestant.

I don't want to derail this into a classic Quebec language debate, but I'm curious: has there ever been at attempt at running a fully bilingual school system up there. Perhaps use time in the first three grades to ensure kids can speak both, then alternate languages between classes in years following?

 

[Formaldehyde]

I have no problem at all with rich people sending their kids to private schools just as long as they continue to pay their taxes towards public schools as well. They have always had that capability, and it helps to eliminate elitism in the public school system in the more affluent neighborhoods.

But any sort of voucher program is completely out of the question. It is nothing but an attempt to cripple and destroy the public school system while subsidizing religious indoctrination.

 

[Evie]

I don't want to derail this into a classic Quebec language debate, but I'm curious: has there ever been at attempt at running a fully bilingual school system up there. Perhaps use time in the first three grades to ensure kids can speak both, then alternate languages between classes in years following?

No talk, and it wouldn't happen. Immersion programs (sometime) happen, and that's the extent of it. Neither side would stand for it, really.They want their kids to learn (insert topics) in their language, not in some language the parents are more or less good at.

Moreover, the language of the school system isn't (only) about classes: it's about administration, parental communication, parental participation, etc.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I have no problem at all with rich people sending their kids to private schools just as long as they continue to pay their taxes towards public schools as well. They have always had that capability, and it helps to eliminate elitism in the public school system in the more affluent neighborhoods.

But any sort of voucher program is completely out of the question. It is nothing but an attempt to cripple and destroy the public school system while subsidizing religious indoctrination.

Yes and Yes. Well put.

 

[Zelig]

I don't want to derail this into a classic Quebec language debate, but I'm curious: has there ever been at attempt at running a fully bilingual school system up there. Perhaps use time in the first three grades to ensure kids can speak both, then alternate languages between classes in years following?

I don't think there's much need for it, you can just enroll kids of either background in French school and they'll probably pick up English anyway. (If you think not, then enroll those kids who wouldn't pick up English in English school, and they'll still be fine with French.)

They want their kids to learn (insert topics) in their language, not in some language the parents are more or less good at.

This isn't necessarily the case, I know loads of kids (including me) whose parents enrolled them in schools of the language not spoken at home.

 

[History_Buff]

This isn't necessarily the case, I know loads of kids (including me) whose parents enrolled them in schools of the language not spoken at home.

First generation immigrants? I can't see too many people doing if there were a society speaking the parents language around them.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

First generation immigrants? I can't see too many people doing if there were a society speaking the parents language around them.

I would do this for my kids in a heartbeat. What a great way for a child to learn a second language. That's one of the best life-tools you can give a kid.

 

[Evie]

This isn't necessarily the case, I know loads of kids (including me) whose parents enrolled them in schools of the language not spoken at home.

Well, yes, there are peopel who would do it given the choice, and people who have the choice and chose to do it.

And a very, very, very large body of people who would rise up in arms (figuratively) if you forced them to do so.

 

[JollyRoger]

How the hell is this free market?

 

[bhsup]

Or instead of banning private schools, tax people who send their kids to them to prop up the public schools.

That's how it's already done, at least in Missouri. The bulk of each school districts' budget is made up of property tax revenue in their district. I'm going to hazard a guess that most States are similiar.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

That's how it's already done, at least in Missouri. The bulk of each school districts' budget is made up of property tax revenue in their district. I'm going to hazard a guess that most States are similiar.

I was actually suggesting a seperate, extra tax for private school utilizers. Which I realize is probably unfair and will never happen. I'm just a big supporter of public education.

 

[bhsup]

Ah. I actually might not be opposed to that. In addition to the property tax, schools get x amount of State dollars for each student enrolled. Maybe those sending kids to private schools should be hit up for that x amount that they are costing their local district...

Something to ponder, at least.

 

[GhostWriter16]

I’d extend this to say that most high-schoolers and even some college kids are too young to know what they really want.

But I don’t expect the majority of posters here to get that since many are still in High School or college and don’t have much in the way of “real world” experience to round out their opinions.

While true, there comes a point where you have to let people make their choices, otherwise you can excuse controlling people for a lifetime.

I say go the other way - the wealthy (who have the most say in policy, since wealth is power) have no interest in making public schools work well because their kids go to private schools. So get rid of private schools completely; make everyone go to public schools, and ensure all schools get the same money no matter where they are.

Have you considered how bad this idea is? It would most likely create state indoctrination for one thing (Which already does happen to some extent although I don't want to take it to a hyperbolic level.

But any sort of voucher program is completely out of the question. It is nothing but an attempt to cripple and destroy the public school system while subsidizing religious indoctrination.

The public school system is "Crippled and destroyed" anyway.

Subsidizing religious indoctrination? More like not charging people for a service that don't use, which is the only fair way to treat it.

I was actually suggesting a seperate, extra tax for private school utilizers. Which I realize is probably unfair and will never happen. I'm just a big supporter of public education.

EXTREMELY unfair. You are now trying to charge people three times instead of one because they don't want to use the crappy public school system.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Ah. I actually might not be opposed to that. In addition to the property tax, schools get x amount of State dollars for each student enrolled. Maybe those sending kids to private schools should be hit up for that x amount that they are costing their local district...

Something to ponder, at least.

VRWCAgent. You are one cool dude.
Honestly, I expected the kind of knee-jerk response Domination3000 just gave instead of any kind of consideration of the merits of such a tax. But you sir, are a great poster.

I do believe that the public education system is one of the strongest assets of our nation and that the spread of private schools really degrades the public system. It also further aggrevates the rich/poor gap.

I just want children to have an even playing field when it comes to education. It isn't their fault they have poor parents or live in a bad neighborhood. This is the land of opportunity but it isn't possible for someone to pull themselves up if they had crappy schools from k-12.

For example, my 3rd grade class (15ish years ago) had a science book that said 'one day, man will land on the moon'. Also, the kids of East St. Louis have to go to school in really decrepit classrooms as the sewers in the surrounding streets periodically explode. The books are old and often times shared between kids and all sorts of other horrible things. The children deserve better and giving them such will help the entire nation.