Replay #7 is 7 is 7

[WastinTime]

Hmmm, 1235 on Standard, maybe it's possible to break 1000 on a Small/Tiny map. Did WastinTime ever give reasoning for using Saladin? Seems like a pretty weak option to me if really optimizing. I might try out a Small/Quick/Deity Cultural with Pacal, I think it could get a pretty good time though I'm not too experienced with sub-Standard sizes.

Hey gang, I just found this thread. I haven't read much yet, but here's my first comment. From what I've read and quickly scanned, no one has pointed out a huge difference in our games. It also explains why Saladin was a great choice...for me.

I played that game eons ago in Vanilla Civ! Saladin was the go-to guy for culture (PHI, SPI). Protective didn't exist.

You made it much harder playing Sal with BtS. Not only that, but on quick speed, there is a different timeline! For example, I won in 149 turns (1460 AD). You won in only 134 turns! (1440 AD) Congrats! you destroyed my previous game...much more than the date indicates.

I look forward to the read.

 

[Killroyan]

I was talking about the trade routes with merc. You only get internal trade routes that are normally worth something like 2-3 commerce per route. That is how I got to 8-9 commerce and an artist assigned. So with merc it is a trade off between an artist and GA points and 9-10 commerce more with free market. You were running repr and pacifism so it is not that bad.

I didn't miss you having a GP farm though. Saw that NE was not build in your capital. Thought long and hard about that, but you didn't milk any city for a GA as far as I could tell. Read about a lot of games and everybody always starved a city to get GA sooner. Like running 10-12 artists even while starving down the city 3-4 sizes.

About the links in the sigs. Never thought of it to be honest. Will look into it Make sure though to post a link of the next replay in the strategy forum as I am not much in the HoF Forum. Good luck.

 

[Kjotleik]

Hi Kjotleik.

TY for answering and saying that you enjoyed this writeup. You having enjoyed it, will give me motivation to continue those writeups.

After re-reading old writeups of me, I discovered statements, that there were times, when I didn't get 1 game over the initial phase of Oracle (or 2000 BC) for about 2 weaks. During the same time, I created the awesomes starts collection, and admitted creating over 2000 maps / weak (which is less than it sounds, with mapfinder and a good pc) , and that I played every start having 2 gold at least. 2 gold is 1:25 maps, now I know, that you're very good at maths, so if I created 2000 maps per weak, how many maps did I fail if playing every 25th map? (Fail = not getting Oracle or different) .

Be sure to follow the next Replay, I already announced that it may be the last, and I'll make sure that it'll get the best that I've ever written, and I also promised that I'll share my whole knowledge.

1 in 25 is 4%
2k times 2 weeks is 4k maps
4% of 4k is 160 maps...failed...oops!

I feel a lot better already. You sure know how to encourage people to continue trying...

(and I will follow your eighth writeup because I enjoyed your seventh...it's only logical to do so I presume...)

[I'm not particularly good at mathematics...but simple percentages should be easy for everyone. If not, the educational system has failed miserably...]

Now I'm off to your next writeup... I'll promise to tell you what I think after you're done with it. But I probably won't interfere posting inbetween your posts during the process.


Yours Sincerely

Kjotleik of Norway

 

[Seraiel]

Hey gang, I just found this thread. I haven't read much yet, but here's my first comment. From what I've read and quickly scanned, no one has pointed out a huge difference in our games. It also explains why Saladin was a great choice...for me.

I played that game eons ago in Vanilla Civ! Saladin was the go-to guy for culture (PHI, SPI). Protective didn't exist.

You made it much harder playing Sal with BtS. Not only that, but on quick speed, there is a different timeline! For example, I won in 149 turns (1460 AD). You won in only 134 turns! (1440 AD) Congrats! you destroyed my previous game...much more than the date indicates.

I look forward to the read.

I seriously you Wastin for posts like this.

You could have simply posted something like "GZ on being 20y faster" , but you're really giving some answers to me.

What you're basically telling me, is, that I chose the wrong version of CIV while I could have chosen the right one (right? playing vanilla for HoF is still allowed, or how should I ever get those Spacerace victories then?) and you told me, that I'm on a totally different level of playing than you were 2 years ago, which, for me, already is a big compliment.

It also gives me a good feeling, because it supports my thought, that I could have been really way better if I had chosen the today's top-Guy (Gandhi) . Note, that the biggest difference between me and you, still is the huge lack of experience that I have. Yesterday I looked in the Parthenon of Heroes, and found that people like Jesusin won 30+ Culture #1s, I've not even played 10 Culture games in my whole life.

Thx again for letting me know, that I "destroyed" your game, and that you're looking forward to my new game, I'm also sure that both of those things are true for me, my old 3.6M highscore game, and your new shot at 7 Million. Hopefully, you'll take yourself enough time to write up a little more than just the timeline, when doing the writeup. I know that that one's the most important of all, but honestly, even if you'd "only" reach 6M, that's still lightyears away from the 3.6 I achieved, and I'm eager to learn about those differences. Maybe you'll appreciate, that with me, you'll always have an opponent that'll challenge you and remain to be challenging, because my way to Quattromaster is still very long, there are still lots of things for me to discover in CIV, and I'm noone to stop playing after having achieved those, that time, that's the time I'll "start" on playing and enjoying truely.

I was talking about the trade routes with merc. You only get internal trade routes that are normally worth something like 2-3 commerce per route. That is how I got to 8-9 commerce and an artist assigned. So with merc it is a trade off between an artist and GA points and 9-10 commerce more with free market. You were running repr and pacifism so it is not that bad.

I didn't miss you having a GP farm though. Saw that NE was not build in your capital. Thought long and hard about that, but you didn't milk any city for a GA as far as I could tell. Read about a lot of games and everybody always starved a city to get GA sooner. Like running 10-12 artists even while starving down the city 3-4 sizes.

About the links in the sigs. Never thought of it to be honest. Will look into it Make sure though to post a link of the next replay in the strategy forum as I am not much in the HoF Forum. Good luck.

You're right, I forgot that internal TRs have to be subtracted from the foreign one's. What I wrote about Mercantilism being extremely weak, and only able to compare under the given circumstances, is still true though. Anyhow, both are not really eligable for culture games, as they're long past the moment where one stops the research. It was just in this game, that I was able to stay in the tech-reace extremely well with being able to build Research, with AIs gifting techs to me because of my extremely low score, with me generating huge amounts of GPT through trading resoures, a.s.o.

And I did milk the GP-Farm for GAs. Building the NE in the capital I find is a generally poor choice, that's only good in very hard games, where the capital can simply build it a lot faster than all other cities. Usually, specializing a city to GPs means it won't be able to run large amounts of Cottages.

At last, regarding the link: I already posted one in the sample-game-directory, but I may be posting a special advertisement in that thread, or a new one on top. You found the HoF just right now already, so the thread will be in your subscription list, once you'll post an answer in it .

1 in 25 is 4%
2k times 2 weeks is 4k maps
4% of 4k is 160 maps...failed...oops!

I feel a lot better already. You sure know how to encourage people to continue trying...

(and I will follow your eighth writeup because I enjoyed your seventh...it's only logical to do so I presume...)

[I'm not particularly good at mathematics...but simple percentages should be easy for everyone. If not, the educational system has failed miserably...]

Now I'm off to your next writeup... I'll promise to tell you what I think after you're done with it. But I probably won't interfere posting inbetween your posts during the process.


Yours Sincerely

Kjotleik of Norway

2 things:

1. TY (for telling me I can motivate ) .
2. You can interfer, and you'll see that it won't turn out negative. There was a time when I was in psychiatry (I study medicine) , and there I heard the sentence "disruptions always have highest priority" . To me, that's an invitation to disrupt, though I think, that it's ment differently :> .

 

[WastinTime]

What you're basically telling me, is, that I chose the wrong version of CIV while I could have chosen the right one (right? playing vanilla for HoF is still allowed, or how should I ever get those Spacerace victories then?) and you told me, that I'm on a totally different level of playing than you were 2 years ago, which, for me, already is a big compliment.

2 years ago? Try 6 1/2 years ago! January 2007 was when I submitted that game.

I really don't like playing Vanilla any more. No Buffy (forest pre-chops), and now it just feels like an incomplete, beta version (not when it came out, but only when compared to BtS). That's probably one reason why not many quick/culture games are being contested (just like Space Race). Vanilla has a huge advantage and people understandably don't want to play that version.

 

[Seraiel]

But I'm right, am I? I'm allowed to play Vanilla with the latest HoF Mod, and it'll count for HoF, EQM, whatever?

6 1/2 years . Ok, but I also "destroyed" your game, means I'm further than you were then . It's amazing that you already play CIV for such a long time, I only know of 1 game (DAoC) which I played for a similar time, and that game was the best game ever if listening to many people. Means CIV is comparable to it, at least for you.

 

[Ozbenno]

But I'm right, am I? I'm allowed to play Vanilla with the latest HoF Mod, and it'll count for HoF, EQM, whatever?

Yep, there is a mod for Vanilla, right here, games still accepted

 

[Seraiel]

Thx :x

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Enjoyed the write-up, thanks.

Would be good if you mentioned the version you play when you list the settings at the beginning. I was very confused by the reference to Copper being needed for a Cathredal!!

I'll be honest when I look at the HoF the first thing I do is change the filter to BTS because it is such a different game than Vanilla / Warlords.

 

[Seraiel]

Uhm... This is / was BtS, Taoist Pagoda's and Confucian Academies need Copper ...

 

[jesusin]

Just read this (only part of it, maybe RL will allow me to read in detail later on).
I'm really surprised you can get away with Oracle with just 1 city.

In my HOF attempts I always try to do a CS slingshot (abandon game otherwise). And I push myself to get to 3 cities before the Oracle is done.

Why? Because I'm afraid I won't get to settle 6 cities (8 in larger maps) agains Deity AIs.
Don't you get out of space by the time you want to settle your 5 auxiliary cities after 1000BC?

 

[Seraiel]

jesusin

I honestly wouldn't have thought, that you were still playing Civ, because this is the first time we meet .

I feel honored that my writeup got your attention, and look forward to an interesting discussion between you, the "culture-master" who wrote the "culture bible" (quotes by lymond) and me, an aspiring player who is still on his way, towards where you were / left .

To answer your questions:

Inland sea is a very large map, and I set it up with minimum opponents and low sealevels . These map settings, create maps of such enormous sizes, that settling the needed helper-cities usually should be possible until 1 AD.

This should be something that should prove to be true for your games too imo. Personally I'm not afraid of expanding that late, because I play very slowly, and I see when space is getting rare. In the game we're talking of i. e., I founded the cities because I felt that time was running out, because the AIs are began to settle near my borders, and I felt that it was the right time, because my cities had grown and were working their best tiles and I even just got Civil Service at that time, so Settlers were even cheaper" . This was past the phase in which building the necessary infrastructure in the L-cities still had higher priority for me, so basically after Granaries and when cities where about size 6.

Reading about your approach is inspiration towards me, and will cause me playing some Culture games in the future. From how I see it, Oracle -> CS and founding the L-cities even earlier is something superior towards what I did, so I'm guessing that you either have to work on your mid to endgame, or that it was something different, maybe something specific to the map, which made my winning date so competitive. I'm really very sure, that Oracle -> CS is the superior way, but when I played that game back then, it was something I morely dreamed of, or only thought of in ways, that Oracle -> CS takes great sacrifices that aren't worth it.
From a todays perspective I know (and reading from you I know even more) , that Oracle CS while expanding to 3 cities is possible, and getting 3 cities means that the early developement wasn't / wouldn't (be) sacrificed, so that's something I will try out for my next culture-game.

Hope this answered your questions, and would be nice to read more from you .

In this sense, cya (or 'til then) .

 

[jesusin]

My idea bout the auxiliary cities is to build them all as soon as possible.

- First of all, this way I can claim prime land with them, getting more resources and -above all- more food (that will get transformed into GreatArtists later on).

- Secondly, with non-Spiritual leaders, you need to move from slavery+OR to Castes+Pacifism in all cities at the same time. So I don't like to have laggard cities that haven't had the time to whip their granary and some of their temples by the time I switch cities. I always try to pop at least one GreatArtist from every city.


The main problems with my approach are:

- I can't afford to divert resources towards WW in the early game

- Research rate suffers (maintenance costs)



EDIT: I'm really time pressed lately. Could you please put together a few key data to understand your game at one glance?
I'm referring to #wars, Liberalism date, #religions, key early WW, number of cottages, number of GreatArtists, raw culture per turn at 1000AD, and the like...

 

[Seraiel]

Hi again

My idea bout the auxiliary cities is to build them all as soon as possible.

- First of all, this way I can claim prime land with them, getting more resources and -above all- more food (that will get transformed into GreatArtists later on).

I think here is a clear difference in our playstyles, and I'm thinking that my approach regarding those cities is actually the better. I wait with founding the auxhiliary cities basically until they're really needed. I let the Legendary cities first grow to a size of about 6, which goes along with the usual Happiness-limit very well. Whipping Settlers from 6 -> 3 is very efficient and gets yourself OF into the next Settler, I then regrow to Size 4, and then whip the next Settler 4 -> 2, which again is very efficient, this is baiscally the way to produce 6 Settlers from 3 cities in the shortest amount of time possible.
Of course, only 5 are needed, so the city hanging back the most must only produce 1 Settler.

There's nn to claim prime land with the settings I used, because the map is just so big, and there's also little need for resources, basically connecting the Gold / Gems is everything I need for long. Important is only that Food at that time as you say yourself. Resources come later and good coordination is needed then, but in the very beginning, I just try to get out 3 cities into good locations, let them grow, build some basic Cottages to enhance Commerce, and I build Granaries in all of those cities to make whipping the Settlers efficient and to maximise their growth, and I try to get the NE up as early as possible and also the sixtine and (that's hard though) the parthenon.

The advantage of this is, that all auxhiliary cities get founded at the same time and as late as possible, this leaves the Legendary cities in the best possible status / best possible size, and really only those cities count. Helper-cities have little to do / build, basically only some Missionaries and temples, they don't even need Granaries because those buildings can often even be chopped, so what they need are workerturns. Getting those then is easy, because the L-cities are well improved at that time and don't need the Workerturns anymore, so I'll move the Workers over.

- Secondly, with non-Spiritual leaders, you need to move from slavery+OR to Castes+Pacifism in all cities at the same time. So I don't like to have laggard cities that haven't had the time to whip their granary and some of their temples by the time I switch cities. I always try to pop at least one GreatArtist from every city.

Granaries in Helper cities must be calculated, they're not needed when Forrests are available, and 1 GA from every Helper city is not bad, but I somehow suspect that you're not effective with generating GAs from the GP-Farm, because in your "bible" you wrote about 10-12 GAs iirc, and that's a number that can come from the GP-Farm alone (if being PHI) .

The main problems with my approach are:

- I can't afford to divert resources towards WW in the early game

- Research rate suffers (maintenance costs)

I don't know if this really helps, but I see neither of those things as problems. I only got the Oracle + the sixtine in this game. I'd liked to have gotten the Parthenon too, but past that, I see nn for any more WWs.

EDIT: I'm really time pressed lately. Could you please put together a few key data to understand your game at one glance?
I'm referring to #wars, Liberalism date, #religions, key early WW, number of cottages, number of GreatArtists, raw culture per turn at 1000AD, and the like...

This writeup is really very short (it's not even 1 page long) , so you might really want to quickly fly over it, but as you asked:

# of wars: 0
Liberalism date: 530 AD (bad)
WW: Oracle + Sixtine
# of religions: 4
Number of Cottages: Very many... very many... Both Legendary cities were basically size 20 in the end and worked nothing but Cottages which all had grown into Villages with having PP available of course.
GAs: 7 or 8 (non-PHI leader, with a PHI leader that would have been 12 probably, and with getting maybe 1 or 2 GAs from Helper cities on top, it'd even have been like 14) . Missed Music because of stupidity.
Raw Culture / turn at 1000 AD: 800 / turn in the Cottage-cities.
Important tactic: Coldwhipping Missionaries / Temples at a rate of 1 / turn.

General strategy is already compiled in the 1st post, its basically found 3 cities 'til 1000 BC (this can probably be done a lot better and earlier like you said) , build Infrastructure, grow, wait, then fast-expand and settle all Helper cities at the beginning of the research of Education. Build Cottages like crazy, whip as little as possible, mainly get 3 really good Locations (+10 Food upwards) . Spread Religion as fast as possible to switch to Caste + PHI as early as possible, prioritize Cathedrals over everything, build every building that gives Culture when there's the time.

Don't know if this helps, but hope so.

Best Regards.

 

[jesusin]

It helps a lot thank you.
If I understand correctly your third Legendary city was a GPFarm and got most of the GreatArtist bombs.

I wrote my guide for Vanilla Civ.
Today, in BTS, I consider cottages much less important.

In my last few games I have built zero cottages, with Pyramids and 16-20 Great Artist in the end of the game. Those games weren't Deity level.


The main differences between our games seem to be
- the emphasis I put on REX when playing Deity versus your leiseruly settling pace in a big map.
- the emphasis I put on GreatArtists versus your emphasis on cottages.


Maybe I should play a game with those settings
I don't think I will, my computer takes ages in the interturn with big maps.

 

[Seraiel]

The main differences between our games seem to be
- the emphasis I put on REX when playing Deity versus your leiseruly settling pace in a big map.
- the emphasis I put on GreatArtists versus your emphasis on cottages.
[/SIZE]

The 1st is false, the 2nd is true. My expansion basically goes in 2 cycles. I first try to REX to 3 cities as fast as possible, but before having met you I thought I had to do that after building Oracle, today I know, that it is possible to even expand before Oracle, so that's what I'd change.

And then I wait, and let grow, and wait, and THEN "pop" to (temples needed for cathedral) * 2 in about 3 turns by a coordinated double whip in most cities.

Leiseruly sounds as if I'd not pay attention to that, and the huge map imho is no real factor, as I played culture games on smaller maps before this one, they're definately easier (Tachywaxon agrees with that) , and I never had place-problems on those maps too.

Keys were Inland Sea + minimum number of opponents.

 

[Dalinski]

2 years ago? Try 6 1/2 years ago! January 2007 was when I submitted that game.

I really don't like playing Vanilla any more. No Buffy (forest pre-chops), and now it just feels like an incomplete, beta version (not when it came out, but only when compared to BtS). That's probably one reason why not many quick/culture games are being contested (just like Space Race). Vanilla has a huge advantage and people understandably don't want to play that version.

OMG, and you are still playing!?

 

[Seraiel]

CIV (for Wastin) is the best game of all times Dalinski! 6 1/2 years are not much if comparing to something as life i. e. .

This is btw. not ment to answer the question for WastinTime, I'd be very interested in an answer myself . Personally I think, what he seeks is strength, and strength comes through repetition and exercize, so I can understand him . I also played a game for 6 1/2 years once, was an awesome time .

What i'd be interested to hear would be stories from Wastins early Civ times, and how Community was back then .

 

[WastinTime]

OMG, and you are still playing!?

Yea, it's a little embarrassing I suppose. It's like a smoking habit. I did quit for about a year, and now I'm in the process of quitting/retiring. The problem is I keep finding out new things that make we want to break another record. It's mostly the SGotM that has kept me here the last couple years. And the things you learn playing that series.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I see nothing embarassing about doing what one enjoys. In the USA, it is called the pursuit of happiness and it is directly protected by the US Constitution.

Enjoy it while it lasts!

Sun Tzu Wu