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Replay #7 is 7 is 7

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Seraiel, Jul 28, 2013.

  1. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Hi Everybody :)


    As always: (tl;dr) = read bold parts


    I played a series of Culture games on Quick speed lately. First one was with Mali, that one had more ambitions then it being really competetive. The finish date was 1570 AD, getting me a 9th place for that category.

    I wanted to get better, so I tried again, and took Gandhi this time, as he's the leader, most think is best suited for Culture. I really felt, that Gandhi is a lot stronger, and that my tactics had become a lot better already, and a 1410 AD finish date is really decent, however, not on small maps, the game got ranked on 6th position. Better, but in HoF, only #1 entries really count, so I decided to work on my tactics again, choose an easier slot (fastest Culture Win on Huge / Quick at that time was by WastinTime in 1460 AD) , and I also decided: If I already go for a weak spot, and if I'm going against WastinTime, I want to play with the same Leader and the same settings as he did.

    Here he is:



    So not really the best possible leader for a Culture game, but it should actually be interesting just because of this already.

    What's also interesting, imo, is that the start was definately also not ideal for this type of game:



    2 Gems are ok, but dry Corn + Riverside Sugar is not exactly what I imagined it to be.

    Anyhow, it was late that day, and I wanted to get a round going, and knowing, that WastinTime's game was far from ideal (he missed Oracle and Liberalism) , I decided that I must take this start, and if it only was for practicing my new tactic, of (Temples needed for Cathedrals * 2) cities * 4 Religions, so an 8 city tactic.


    But before we start on the round, here are the settings:

    Map type: Inland Sea
    Map size: Huge
    Game speed: Quick
    Difficulty: Deity
    Options: No Barbarians, with Goody Huts and Events, low Sealevel


    Opponents:
    • Asoka
    • Elizabeth
    • Frederick
    • Gandhi
    • Darius
    • Hatty
    • Lincoln
    • Mansa
    • Roosevelt
    • Washington

    So a minor deviation from the opponents WastinTime used (Hatty instead of Viccy) but nothing too special. I decided for Hatty and against Viccy, because Viccy is hell of an expander (she cheats at Settler-building, see Replay #5) , and because Hatty has Religious Flavour, while Viccys Flavour is Gold. In my Civ-time, I have often seen Hatty found Judaism and go Missionary Strategy. I've also sometimes seen her found Confucianism and she will usually try to found Christianity, and often is successful with it, because of her UB giving 2 Priest-Slots.

    So minimum Opponents on a really large map. This brings us back to my approach:
    1. Stay at 1 city, Oracle CoL, found Confucianism.
    2. Found the 2 other Legendary (L2 + L3 in this Replay) until 1000 BC.
    3. Stay at 3 cities, have 2 Workers / city, improve the land and let them grow to a size of 6-7, build Granaries + Madrassas (the Arabian Library) , then:
    4. 1-2 Settlers from each city and take the places that are still unsettled, expand to 8 cities (those cities don't have to be in extremely good locations, because all they have to do is build the temples and the Missionaries, so that the L-cities can focus on building Cathedrals and other Culture-buildings) .
    5. Get 4 Religions somehow, play at least as good as WastinTime, have more luck ^^ .
    So now you got my tactic, you know about the game and the start, and I hope that you'll find it interesting, to follow this round again!

    For the people who cannot wait:
    The game can be found here, I made sure to submit 4 savegames for it, so that you can see what I did in that round.

    A last thing: In my last Replay, I started a contest, where other players should guess the date, at which I won. I gave hints to it, but it still was a guessing competition. The person getting the closest, should decide which game I'd play next, and that was Sun Tzu Wu! Sun Tzu Wu decided for me to play a game on Quick speed, so Sun Tzu, this Replay is dedicated at you!

    ---------------

    End of part 1 and introduction.

    Seraiel
     
  2. VSarius

    VSarius Warlord

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    Going to guess an early-1400s, maybe very late 1300s (doubt it can be done faster without FIN for serious slider abuse) victory. Saladin is definitely on the weaker end, but being able to flip between Caste-Slavery in a Cultural game is always powerful, along with Pacifism-OR. Founding 5 cities that late sounds like it'll be rather difficult on Deity although I'm not overly familiar with Inland Sea, I do recall it having quite a lot of land and a ridiculous amount of barbs, although I guess that's a non-factor here.
     
  3. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    You're guessing right about the winning date. I think it can be done a little faster, as there's a 1235 AD Cultural Victory on Standard / Quick, also from WastinTime and using Saladin. Maybe it's a little easier on smaller maps, because one needs less cities, 8 cities are a lot, especially with the Settlers having to be produced in those cities, that should actually grow.

    Btw., people, there are more things you can guess, like i. e. the 1st move, and what I forgot: The link towards the savegame is not only for those wanting to have a look, but especially for those, who wanna shadow!

    Elsesome, you could i. e. also simply comment on the thread itself, there are some really special things in it anyhow, like i. e. that it's a game beating WastinTime, it's the first Cultural game that I publish, I give away my tactic in the very first post and what's really special for me, is that the game is on Quick speed!

    If nothing of that hits you and you find this all uninteresting, be honest about it, at least I then have a reason for working harder on the next part! If you simply want more info, wait a few hours, I'm gonna publish the next part today no matter what, but without critique, it's really hard if one wants to develop, being the main reason for me writing all my Writeups.

    Seraiel
     
  4. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    Serial will start a new fashion: Huge/Quick!


    ftfy

    ------------

    You certainly got an obsession over WastinTime. There are other great players...just they don't show off through HoF.
    TallGermanJoe is one of them.

    Or that Unconquered Sun TMIT likes to refer to.
     
  5. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Tachywaxon (!) , don't make fun about me with calling me serial, I'm super super cereal about this ^^

    Huge / Quick is really funny, it's really good that you remind me of this, as I would have forgotten. A Huge map on Quick speed i. e. favours really funny tactics like building a Worker for exploring the map :D . A scout would of course be better, and finding one of those in a hut is one of the most valuable things that can happen during the start. I still remember, that I met the last CIV somewhere at around Liberalism :lol: .
     
  6. VSarius

    VSarius Warlord

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    Hmmm, 1235 on Standard, maybe it's possible to break 1000 on a Small/Tiny map. Did WastinTime ever give reasoning for using Saladin? Seems like a pretty weak option to me if really optimizing. I might try out a Small/Quick/Deity Cultural with Pacal, I think it could get a pretty good time though I'm not too experienced with sub-Standard sizes.
     
  7. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Madrassa?

    Earlier Great People on quick speed (Great scientists if lucky).

    My guess.
     
  8. Zavior

    Zavior Trying to (b)eat deity

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    Just finished reading all the previous replays today, nice to see you are posting a new one =)
     
  9. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    The reason why WastinTime probably chose Saladin, was, that he still needed him for EQM too. Salladin itself is compared with Gandhi, Hatty, Lizzy or Mansa.

    The point is, that Wastin simply is that good, that he can score a #1 entry with such a leader, and the 2nd point is, that there are actually so few people playing for the HoF (on Deity) , that there are almost no Incan games in this category.

    Maybe you want to change this :> .

    TY :) . I first planned to publish some Videos I took in my last rounds, but I have to say, that doing a Writeup is far easier, at least when one can write and think really fast, and at least if one has 0 experience with windows movie maker (and on top is a little worried about what to talk about ^^) .
     
  10. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Ok, so here is the continuation of the Writeup:

    There are exactly 0 savegames of the time until 1540 BC, the time at which I got Alpha through tradde, because I had no idea, that that game could actually develop so good, that it'd score a #1 position!

    Here is what happened:
    • The start revealed itself to be a lot better than thought at first. After moving the Settler 1S, wet Wheat and another riverside Sugar were revealed. Anyhow, there weren't really that many Forrests, like the Screenshot you know pretends.
    • I researched Agriculture first.
    • I got Pottery from a Hut (had no real effect on the game, but was nice) .
    • Buildorder was Worker, Worker, Warrior, Granary (iirc) . Note that it's really important to have enough Workers on Quick Speed, and with so much Food.
      I also said, that Pottery didn't have that big of an Influence on the game, because:
    • The start had absolutely 0 production. That's why I decided to go for Writing (via Priesthood) and then BW, to whip the Oracle (!) . Anyhow, just at the turn where I wanted to whip the Oracle (at 1780 BC) , Gandhi offered Marble through trade, pushing the 4-pop-whip (that would have been possible, as I didn't expand at all and the city was size 8) down to a 2-pop-whip, so yes, 2 pop saved, but as it was unhappy pop anyway, it didn't really do that much.
      The tech I chose was of course, CoL, as it'd give me a Religion (Religion-spread get's seriously crippled on these settings, so securing Religions is necessary) .
    • I also got a Scout from a hut, this probably was the even more important then free Pottery, as it allowed me to spare building a Worker for eploration purposes.

    Screens from 1540 BC:



    Screen showing the surrounding land, and the 2nd city. The land itself is ok, little too near to the jungle for my taste, but Stone + Marble available and 2 good sites for the remaining L-cities.

    Now you'd guess, that I'd found the 3rd city 2N and 1W of the Stone, as it's a really good site, I didn't! I founded it here:



    The thought I had in my mind when deciding for that location, was, that I could secure an additional Floodplain like that, and that the borders of that city would get really large anyhow, so that it wouldn't matter. Later I found out, that it'd been really nice to have had an additional Resource to trade early, and Floodplain or Stone, is basically no difference (if having the tile-yield in mind) .

    The 2nd screen is taken from 1000 BC, so plan fulfilled, 3 (really good) cities until 1000 BC!

    Another screen, to help you catch up with the tech-situation at that time (Quick speed is really fast) :



    Absolutely 0 chance for me to bulb Christianity or Philsophy with this approach and with the tech-pace on that map. I was able to really get a lot of techs in trade for the oracled CoL, the Wonder keeping me in the game at all, but even with it, no chance to develop a tech-lead until now.

    800 BC: A great Prophet gets born: (Chances were 40% for a great Scientist, so bad luck) :



    I use him to bulb Theology, even though I'm not first to it, as it allows me to catch up in tech:



    Math and Currency, the 2 most important classical techs. No question if this was worth it, as it even unlocks the possibility to research Paper afterwards.

    I've begun on the Construction of the Parthenon in the 2nd city (the GP-Farm) , that's already fully improved:



    The Parthenon, as you can imagine, is of course a Wonder that can really really help in a Culture-round. It gives GA-points, it gives +50% on GP-production in general... No way I'd miss that one, at least I was first to Aesthetics, have Marble, Math and most of my Workers are chopping for it, right?

    (Btw.: Don't pay attention to the 3rd city working unimproved Floodplains, I had to set priorities in this round, and getting Cottages asap was none of them, as they grow really fast on Quick speed. Getting the Parthenon I found way more important, but... ) :



    NOOOOOO :aargh: :D

    Gandhi must have prioritized that wonder over everything, and there's no way to compete with his fast-Workers and his plain and simply Deity-power at that time.

    But I am gonna get Music first and get a free GA by that, if I'm already so intelligent and research Drama (as that fastens up the research of Music itself) instead of beelining either it, or Liberalism? :>



    Mansa :aargh: :D

    Plz, don't only read that I missed Music, but also have a look at the tech-situation in general. 2 Civs have Civil Service already, something I could have easily had if I wouldn't have been so stupid, and Gandhi already has Paper, which he of course lightbulbed.

    I quitted the game at that point, as I really had to find something positive, that kept me playing this round.

    ----------------

    End of part 2.

    Coming up: Appraisal. What have I got.
     
  11. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Part II - Appraisal​



    It's been some time since I wrote the last part of this Writeup. Since then, all my games have failed, with things like making absolute wrong decisions (i. e. go for Conquest while a 1000 AD domination victory would have been possible and then fail because AI beelined Rifles) , so I probably managed to pick up some bad karma somehow. Maybe I'm destined to only post Writeups and play my games alone, cause everytime I ask for help in this forum, really bad things happen, well, I don't care. Next game will be the lamest game I ever played, a Pangaea Egypt BFC Horses Rush, because it's already 4 times now, that I've failed at getting the #1 slot for Standard / Normal Domination.

    Anyhow, this game managed to get #1, so let's get back:

    What you know about this game, is, that it was actually really weird. Wanting to 4pop-whip Oracle is something really rarely happening, staying at 1 city for a long time is also very rare, and playing Gems starts that are near the jungle is also unusual for me, because I prefer double Food double Gold starts (I also take tripple Gold ^^) . I made some good decisions, like settling the other 2 legendary cities really early, I got some really nice locations for them, and in general, the game was quite chaotic with me making odd decisions like to tech drama before Music and then missing it by 1 turn, I had bad luck with missing the Parthenon...

    Time to look at what I got at all: The time is 280 BC1

    At first, I have 4 cities:



    The capital, having really much Food, which is really good for Settler production. I failed at getting a GS for an Academy, so the research of that city is quite low still, but it's very good to get out the needed Settlers, especially as it'll soon get the Burocracy bonus.



    The GP-Farm. The advantage of missing the Parthenon was, that I had pre-chopped a lot of Forrests, which made building the NE really easy. The advantage of researching Drama was, that I could also build a Theater there really early, allowing me to go for a mixed GA / GS. Basically both are ok for me, because if an Academy should be of any use at all, it'd have to be built really fast, and there's nothing to say against additional GAs in a culture game. The city btw. has got so much Food, that it'll grow into :mad: next turn, even though I already stalled Growth and with working the Specialists, so it's also really really strong.



    The 3rd city. Not that well developed 'til now, but a lot of Food and a lot of Floodplains that are perfect for a lot of Cottages. This city needs to catch up.



    The 4th city. Is is a slight deviation from my plan to found the 3 legendary cities fast, and then make a long stop until founding the remaining 5, but, the city is in such a strong location, that I had the intuition, that this city would be of great help. I thought, it could even help on the Settler production if founded so early, but that should prove wrong. Anyhow, this city did really help, because it should get one of the main producers for Missionaries, and with securing that many resources, it should really help with my trades.



    Showing the really poor trades I'm conducting at that moment. I'm paying for the Marble, and even with the AIs having lots of Gold which would seriously help my Economy, there's no chance of me getting it, as I didn't really have the time to connect the resources that are in my territory towards the cities. Good things are, that I'm able to trade for Dyes, which give nice +2 :) with Theaters, and also good is, that I have trade-connections to almost all Civs. (Something really difficult with these settings. You can know from the settings, that I haven't even met all Civs yet! )

    I've already informed you about the tech-situation in the last post, but just for completeness here again:



    Showing that Civil Service is already owned by the AIs, so not far away with having Music + Drama for trade (Music isn't showing, because I bought the last turn just at that time) .



    A look at the map. AI is advancing to me, but I should get the cities I marked there, even at that time still. Don't forget that this map is really Huge. Important to note, is, that all necessary resources are available, so Stone, Marble and Copper (the resources needed for the Cathedrals) , and, really nice to see is, that even the helper-cities will be in good locations, so I don't have to worry about them not getting the necessary Infrastructure plus them having the capability to produce most of the needed Missionaries, so that the Legendary cities are free for building the more important stuff.

    If talking about Religion already, let's have a look at that too:



    Not the 4 Religions that I wanted for my tactic yet, but there wasn't really time for Missionaries to reach my cities, because, yes, Quick Speed. Everything is still possible here, because Hinduism is just nearby, and there's still some time for one of the other Religions to come over. Who knows who will found the Islam :> .

    The momentum of settling the new cities now, btw. is perfect for these settings, as I'll soon be able to trade maps, making auto-spread towards them possible. Also, the city Baghdad is luring in Missionaries, because it doesn't have a Religion yet, and my neighbours are so nice that they of course want to change that ^^ .

    ------------

    After this, I found, that everything was still possible. A 3rd Religion would reach me in near time, no real clue yet how I should get the 4th one, but with trading for Civil Service and Paper, I should soon be back in the tech-race. Not yet a real winning game, but nothing too bad lost either, and the really good locations for my cities were giving me hope. The most important thing is, that my cities are really well developed, have a lot Food, and I hope to have good chances at the sixtine, with being only 1 turn late to Music, and with having pre-chopped many Forrests again. Having 2 Workers / city should be something, that should really pay out in this game.

    Next post: The game develops from "still everything possible" to "I'm in now" .
     
  12. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Part III - Following the plan


    This part is gonna get really good, so keep reading. Thx to Tachywaxon for giving me the motivation to write it.

    The last part of the Writeup left me and you in 280 BC. I've not taken any notes in this game, but as always, I saved every turn, so I can assemble this game somehow again. That is a lot work though, so we'll make small steps time at a time.

    Update from 1 AD:

    Clearview:



    This screenshot already shows a lot. Most important things are mentioned by the notes. Things to notice are, that I made a huge jump from the the post named "Appraisal" in form of gained Research (Civil Service + an Academy multiplied the Beakers really hard) tech-level (researching Education instead of Music) , number of cities (almost 6 instead of just barely 4) , that the GP-Farm has reached completetion and that the chain-production of GAs has started, that great parts of the land is still unimproved, that there are almost no roads until now (and no resources connected!) but that the most important L-cities are well improved.

    The tech-screen:



    Showing that I traded Drama and Music to almost everybody, which is the reason for me having gotten all those techs and all that money and also explaining the good diplomatic relations. Basically, I'm really late, that's why AIs were willing to trade everything to me and of course, Mansa (and Gandhi) as always were a big help.

    Unfortunate but important: I don't have Philosphy yet (Pacifism would be a terrific increase in GP-production) and Islam was founded by my neighbour Darius! Who'd have thought that :eek: . It's actually the first time I have seen Darius found Islam, but hey, that's my chance to get to 4 Religions!

    L1:



    L1 is at a really good size, though the Happy and Healthycap still allow for more. The Theater got actually only built for extra Happyness, not for the Culture, while the Academy actually got built mostly for Culture, not for research :crazyeye: (an Education bulb would have been more efficient, and this will cost me Liberalism) . The city has begun on working Cottages (yes, it has started to work Cottages at 1 AD) and it still has a Settler to be whipped from it, and is only just growing to get an almost full Foodbar, and then whip the Settler with Burocracy bonus and finish the temple with OF unlocking a really early Cathedral.

    L-GP:



    This city is currently growing and is going to change soon. Atm. there's no way to not run Slavery, because there are still Settlers to be whipped, but as I ain't got Philosphy yet anyhow, it's no real damage that the city can only work 2 Specialists yet. Important is, that it also has every important building + the sixtine, and that it has also already begun on contributing to Temple-production to unlock an early Cathedral.

    L-2:



    This city is still a bit behind on development, but it is already working the best tiles and at happycap. 500 BC is actually quite often a time, at which I start on building Cottages in my games, if I have luxury-resources. It's late, but it's np, and in this specific game, the high growth-rate of Quick speed will make all those Hamlets be the Villages they need to be once Printing Press is reached.

    -------------------------

    Update from 200 AD:

    I told you, that we'd be taking small steps, but these are actually huge steps. Anyhow, 200y on Quick speed at that time are only 5 turns! This is something absolutely changing the game, because what takes longest, is units reaching their destination. City-growth, city-developement and Research are advancing on lightspeed, so have a look:



    So in 5 turns, I produced 2 Settlers, one founding a new city already and one having almost reached it's final destination, I got Islam after just having gotten Hinduism, and even with having produced that much, the cities have already reached their old sizes again or, like in the case of the southwestern city, have become strong and are short before being able to contribute to the overall purpose.

    Things that can also be noticed: The Legendary cities are mostly focussing on Infrastructure and only produce as few Missionaries as possible, as those have to come from the Helper cities. Even though Workers are still needed, with no Roads built, and with almost no resources connected, these cities are focussing on Growth and developement (and it's still no problem that I don't have Philosphy, because building Monestaries would be an absolute waste so Organized Religion + Slavery still is the only possible way) .

    -------------------------

    3rd update:

    These screenshots are from 500 AD and they're the last moves for this post, before you read something else and wait for the next part, or continue playing your own round again :> :











    After the last 2 updates, you should normally be able to understand this, but just as help:
    • I spread 2 Religions to 4 cities, because 4 temples are needed for 1 Cathedral on a Huge map.
    • I built those Monestaries only because having the sixtine, making them give a lot more Culture than usual.
    • I'm working the (bad) Cottages instead of the (good) Villages, because Research doesn't matter atm. and every turn growth will count once I turn the Cultural Slider to 100%.
    • I didn't have the Workerturns to build Farms onto the unimproved tiles that L-GP is working. Workerturns are a real problem on Quick speed and I started really late on producing enough of them. Therefor though, the cities are at Happycap and well developed.
    • No Cathedral yet (probably caused by not having any chance to connect Copper yet, but none lasting for long, as whipping Cathedrals is np with cities having that much Food) .

    < ----------------- >

    Gonna get myself some breakfast now. I hope you got a good impression about how I played, about what happened and begin to get a feel for how this round went, and that it'll help you in your upcomming rounds. Knowing that this round would score a #1 finish, seeing those screens and reading what I wrote, you'll basically only have to remember 1 thing, when playing your own cultural round: Develop your Legendary cities.

    There are a lot of things that can go wrong in a cultural round, like missing the Parthenon or not being first to Lib, but the one thing most deciding, is the status of your Legendary cities with reaching Liberalism. There are other factors, like how many Religions you get, when you get them and which resources you have, to name the important ones, but from having played all those cultural games in a row, I can assure you, that this game got the best, because the L-cities were founded early and in strong locations.


    Hope you found that last part interesting too.

    Seraiel
     
  13. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Thanks for writing this most recent chapter of your cultural victory game. Very instructive and a joy to read.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  14. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    I'm glad that you enjoy this Writeup, as it's actually yours. If the thx was especially for the last part, then it has to go to Tachywaxon, because she inspired me to write another part that at least comes close to the one's I've written a year ago.

    I plan on the next parts to at least hold this quality, or maybe even improve towards the end again, as I've found my will to do Writeups again.

    As I often say: Any feedback towards this writeup is appreciated, as it's a lot of work, and without feedback, it's hard to write and improve further.
     
  15. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Ok, 'til some time left for today. No feedback means I don't need to change anything, so here is the next part of the Writeup:

    Part IV - Last things and the beginning of the end

    530 BC. The turn where I reached Liberalism and in which I traded for Nationalism with Washington:



    Now there's a lot to see:

    1st of all, there are hordes of Missionaries running around. It's very important, to whip these one's even Cold, especially on Quick Speed. Cold-whipped Missionaries are 2pop-whips here, so they're possible at size 4. The cities got so much Food, or Quick speed is so quick, that the city regrows to size 3 on the same turn. Then, the OF goes into another Missionary, sometimes even completing it, and again next turn, the city reaches size 4 again, making the next cold-whip possible.

    This is something, that really really saves time, and it's really important, because every turn that I'm now gonna stay in OR and Slavery, means a lot less GPP, as I can only run 2 Artists in the GP-Farm with the Theater it has, the Farm could work almost 10 Specialists though, and Pacifism alone also is a 33% increase in GPP, so every turn counts.

    This is so extremely important if wanting to be fast, that the head now must be turned absolutely on. You have to think what each city can produce, how strong it is, which religion it needs, when, and how many additional Missionaries you want to produce, so that if one fails, that the next one is still available even though you already switched to Caste + Pacifism! One has to coordinate the Workers really well, so that the chops cycle with the whips so that every city produces 1 Temple / Missionry per turn.

    Therefor, you see that I classed cities into class a) and class b) .

    a) are the strong cities, these have to get as many religions as possible as early as possible, because they have to take over the part of the additional Missionary production for cities b.

    b) cities, are the later founded, or weak cities. These cities have to get exactly 1 Religion, they don't have to produce any Missionaries unless they're accidentally the only city having that certain Religion, if so, they have to produce 1 Missionary, spread towards a strong city, and then only build Temples.

    The strongest cities of course are the Legendary cities, these have to get that Religion, that's necessary for the next Cathedral, and if possible, they shouldn't produce any Missionary that's not absolutely needed, because no Helper-city has that specific Religion.

    It's a little complicated perhaps, but have a look at the screen:

    Northeast and Southwest are the strong cities, they have either much Food and good production tiles, or Forrests. These cities got Confucianism, which was owned only by the Legendary cities, because it was self-founded. So the first thing I did, was, spread from L to strong H.

    Then look again. Southeast is a generally strong city, but it was founded late. This city got Islam, so first thing I did, was spread to Southwest and Northeast, so they can take over Islamic Missionary production. Now while the L-cities can build Confucian Temples and Confucian Academies, the stronger H-cities could spread Islam to them, unlocking the next builds.

    Northwest hindu city, is weak. It's the only city that was hindu though. So same principle, chop out a Missionary, spread to strong city, continue Missionaries from there to L-cities and other strong H-cities.

    Maybe you're now getting a feeling, why this round finished in the early 1400's, while other rounds finish 1600 AD or later.

    --------------------

    !!! - !!! - !!! - !!! : Most of you would probably have thought, that I'd switch of Research completely at that time, because I have Liberalism (so Free Speech) and that it'd be time to run 100% Culture. Anyhow, it's past 500 AD already.

    Wrong. Why?

    This would be L1 with running 100% Culture (I am runinng Free Speech btw. as you can see) :



    About 200 :culture: / turn only, because this city doesn't have a Cathedral yet! Why is that so?
    1. The only Cathedral thats unlocked yet would be the Confucian Academy, and that one needs Copper. Remember the 1st Screenshot? Yes, Copper not connected yet (but very soon later) .
    2. L1, is not the weakest city. L-GP and L3 are, so they have to get the Cathedrals first, because L1 will make it's way, even with a later Cathedral and even a Cathedral less.
    Sidenote: All those :culture: -buildings you see in that city, are all not necessary. I built them, because I had the time for it, because building Culture via Hammers is inefficient as it doesn't get multiplied, and because building Research and Wealth to reach the techs 1 or 2 turns sooner again is not efficient.

    Important: Count the huge number of Cottages of that city. This city is working 9 Cottages (or better) on that screen, and all of those will be Villages in no time, because the higher the speed, the higher the growth of the Cottages. 9 Villages getting a bonus from Printing Press, is like getting 2 addional ones, and one 5 :commerce: Cottage, produces more than 20 :culture: via the multipliers that will be available. Printing Press (on these settings) costs 2000 :science: , so that, through 40 (2 Cottages) through 2 (2 Cottage-cities) is 25 turns! The city needs 25 k Culture to get to Legendary, and it makes 200 Culture / turn at 100% atm., any question if this round is gonna take 25 turns still? ^^

    (This math is not really precise, but it's a very simple way to know if Printing Press is worth it, or not. In this case, the gain of Printing Press is / was so high, that no question occured, and I guess that this will be true for about all of your culture games, so you now got the exact answer on how far you'll have to research. )

    --------------------

    7 turns until Printing Press, after which I'll shut of Research forever and will run 100% Culture 'til the end of the round. 7 turns to get as many Cathedrals online as possible without destroying the cities. 1 turn 'til Copper is connected, there are enough Religions in place and the spread is progressing, the cities build 1 Temple / Missionary per turn, 740 AD (the turn Printing Press finished) :



    L1 having 1 Cathedral and generating 330 :culture: / turn.



    L-GP having also 1 Cathedral, and generating only 200 :culture: / turn, due to the lack of Cottages. Still not in Caste and Pacifism, but there's no other way, because the spread is not complete yet and neither is the infrastructure (Temples) .



    L-2, the weakest, because last founded L-city. Of course, the Hermitage had to go here.


    Religion Spread:



    So mostly complete, but still too early to switch the Civics, because I want full 3 Missionaries even if there's only 1 city left that has to get the Religion. 12 Failure chances is a lot, even failing 12% two times is absolutely possible, but failing it 3 times, is very unlikely. If that should happen, well, then I would have had to cry, because it'd have costed me the round, but from reading this, you'll notice that HoF play is not depending on luck and just getting ultra-lucky, it's about math.

    http://s1162.photobucket.com/user/Seraiel/media/Replay 7/cities01_zps7162796c.jpg.html

    A screen from the city-advisor. It's beautiful to see, that all cities are doing like I said, 1 building / turn. All cities? Nooooo! One city is building Wealth! WTF! The most useless thing ever in a Culture round! This is just from the turn before that city got the next Religion and could build the next Temple!

    So you now already know quite a lot things that you can make better than me. Think, what strategic Resources you need when, connect them so they're there early, settle the H-cities just a little bit earlier, build more Workers earlier, coordinate the Religion-Spread even better, get more Cathedrals online earlier[//b] (!) , simply, don't make so many minor mistakes like me but play with the same effort, clearview and strategy!

    --------------------

    This is the last part of this update, the next part will handle the final turns, and how these cities shoot over the 25k :culture: thats needed for them to reach Legendary status. It's gonna handle the final Civic Switch to Caste + Pacifism and it's going to handle the production of at least 7 GAs, to bombe those cities to Legendary, that are just a little short, compared to the Capital.

    Hope you enjoyed the read, 'til next time,

    Seraiel
     
  16. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Messages:
    7,920
    I'm a bit confused about what strategy you are following, because generating seven great artists seems to be a rather low number. As I recall, most quick speed culture games by jesusin and WastinTime have 10-12 great artists. Perhaps you are doing a Great Wonder spam strategy where one tries to build wonders that generate great artists, but may generate other great people. That leads to the culture building strategy comments below ...

    Where to put Culture multiplying buildings to minimize the winning turn can be a counterintutive exercise. There is no simple rule for deciding this, but there are ways to calculate it.

    One may decide to put the best multipliers in the legendary city with the smallest base culture rate (the trailing one), but it is often optimal to put them in the lengendary city with the highest culture rate to maximize the profit produced by the culture multiplying buildings.

    The potential issue with maximizing the culture in the city with the best base culture rate is having enough great artists to bomb the other two legendary cities to legendary when the first city goes lengendary on its own. In this is the case, then one wants the best culture multiplying building in the lengendary city with the second best base culture rate.

    It is rare that one would ever need to put the best culture multiplying buildings in the legendary city with the smallest base culture rate. This is especially true when this city is also the Great Artist Farm as well; it hopefully would generate enough Great Artists to culture bomb itself to legendary.

    Again, thanks for another great chapter of your game! Not sure I would have considered cold/dry/emergency whipping Missionaries.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  17. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Finally I got the time to answer to your questions :)

    Regarding the number of Great Artists, you must not forget, that Saladin is not PHI. I think I created 8 GAs in that game, that would have been the 12 you're talking from, if I'd have played Gandhi.

    I usually don't calculate too much, when I play CIV, but come to my decisions by experience, evidence and intuition. I had played about 4-5 culture games before this one, and in neither one, I had problems to get the Capital to Legendary. I found Great Artists to be quite weak though, and I always struggled with the 2nd Cottage-city needing at least 1, if not 2 Great Artists, to reach Legendary on the same turn as the Capital. Therefor, I made sure in this game, that the 2nd Cottage-city gets good multipliers, and I also knew from experience, that the GP-Farm makes more CPT than one would think at first.
    With 4 Religions and 8 cities, there are also so many Cathedrals to build, that usually every city can chain-build one after another. The screenshots and the story-telling seems to make a wrong impression, I did build a lot culture-multipliers in all cities, it was just that I prefered the 2nd Cottage city slightly and didn't hesitate to build Cathedrals in the GP-Farm.

    Also, my strategy is / was, to simply generate huge amounts of Culture by Villages + multipliers. I know that it's np for a good Culture-city, to get over 800 CPT, and more than 80% of those come from the Villages and the Commerce in general. Hammers are absolutely insignificant than, even culture buildings play a minor role, as 1 riverside village = 2 theaters, and just look at the screen, those cities are size 15, the capital will be size 20+ in the end.

    Regarding the Great Artists again: The best Culture game I ever played (was Marathon though, but has a way better finish date and also ranks #1) btw was with Pericles. There I had very good experience with running Artists in as many cities as possible via the unique Collosseums. In this game, I experienced that even though the GP Farm was so strong, I could have easily created 2 additional Great Artists simply by running some Specialists in the Helper cities from the time with Caste onwards. That would have definately made my victory even faster.

    Hth, thx for your feedback, and:

    As an announcement: If you, readers, want to keep my Writeups in the S&T Forums, you'll have to give some Feedback, or at least leave note that you've read it. Atm., the situation is, that STW is the only one leaving any Feedback and keeping this thread going, like that I could also simply post in HoF forums as it would make absolutely 0 difference. I think that my posts have quality and that they're helpful, not reacting in any kind leads to me not finding any need to write them, and as you see, but STW's Feedback is, wha tkeeps this thread alive.

    Til then, cya,

    Seraiel
     
  18. Killroyan

    Killroyan Deity

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    I love these writeups Seraiel. Keep them up.
     
  19. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

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    Ok, this is odd. I've seen you around the forum for the past 14 days, but as you changed your avatar, I only now realised that you are the guy with the ridiculous Sushi game.

    As in the previous thread, subscribing and eagerly waiting for more :)
     
  20. erajah

    erajah Chieftain

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    I lurk mostly on these forums, as I don't generally have much input to add. But, I do enjoy all of these write-ups.

    And, additionally, like STW, I always thought the fastest culture victories come from maximizing the GA bombs. In which, Hermitage goes in the L1, and most cathedrals go in the L1/L2 city and the final city typically catches up via GAs. Not to disparage your soon-to-be victory, but for the purposes of HoF, I would think squeezing out every droplet of speed would help.
     

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