Requests for new components (and features)

[cripp7]

I would love to have an option to be notified when whipping population is at the lowest anger point. It's great that you have the option to see when you can whip, but I mostly whip when the anger from it is at the lowest.

Is this possible?

have an option in the BUG menu to set whip anger count notification.

"Paris whip anger now at 2"

 

[PieceOfMind]

Roland,

I think he means he would like to be notified when the unhappiness caused by whipping runs out (i.e. counter reaches 0). From the interface, this is seen when the anger from whipping (on the button) reduces finally to 1 for 10 turns (hence calling it when anger is the lowest).

Currently, the only real way to do that is just manually set a reminder each time you whip, so that in 10 turns (or whatever) you remember to do your next whip. I think it's ctrl+alt+R to set reminders.

Personally I think knowing this point is more important for drafting than whipping, because it's nice to know the exact turn when the 3 runs out.

 

[ruff_hi]

There is a whip anger counter on the city screen. The number in square brackets up near the anger information.

[4] would mean 4 turns before it runs out.

There is also a logger entry when whip anger reduces.

 

[Caboose]

Using the hurry production option from slavery always causes 1 unhappiness for 10 turns (modified by game speed settings) independent from the moment that you use the option.

Oh, I feel really stupid now I thought the time of anger stacked when they were still angry from the last whip, i.e. "1 unhappiness for 17 turns" meant 1 unhappiness for 17 turns from that one whip. Uh, if you see what I mean. If not, just ignore my rambling. Thanks!

 

[Caboose]

Wait, it does mean that, doesn't it?

Every time I whip before the anger from the previous whip is gone, they are angry for longer and longer every time I do it. That's why I would love to have such an automatic notification, so that I can avoid stacking the anger times from whipping too often.

I am right, no?

 

[MadmanAtW]

Every time you whip, you create for 10 turns.

If you whip on turn 1, you will have 1 for 10 turns.
If you whip again on turn 6, you it will say 2 for 15 turns. However, on turn 11, the first will have expired, and you will be down to 1 for 5 more turns. Each lasts 10 turns, but they stack up however high if you whip more during those 10 turns.

EDIT: Ignore this- I was not thinking clearly. Whipping will always add 10 to the total amount of time you have left with unhappiness. See Roland Johansen's post below for a fuller explanation.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Oh, I feel really stupid now I thought the time of anger stacked when they were still angry from the last whip, i.e. "1 unhappiness for 17 turns" meant 1 unhappiness for 17 turns from that one whip. Uh, if you see what I mean. If not, just ignore my rambling. Thanks!

Maybe you were understanding thing correctly, maybe not. It's not completely clear from your posts. Maybe I was just misunderstanding you.

If you whip once, then you get one unhappiness for 10 turns (modified by game speed). It doesn't matter how much population is whipped. If you whip another time while unhappiness from whipping is still present then another period of 1 unhappiness for 10 turns is added after the current unhappiness period. The unhappiness is added together.

An example to make things clear (assuming normal game speed).

If you whip once you'll have 1 unhappiness for 10 turns. If you then whip again after 4 turns, then you'll have 2 unhappiness for 6 turns and 1 for 10 turns (shown as 16 turns of unhappiness). If you then whip again after 3 turns, then you'll have 3 unhappiness for 3 turns, 2 for the next 10 turns and 1 for the next 10 turns (shown as 23 turns of unhappiness).

If at some point in the game, the remaining duration of unhappiness from whipping shows as 34 (just a number), then this means 4 unhappiness for 4 turns followed by 3 unhappiness for 10 turns, followed by 2 unhappiness for 10 turns, followed by 1 unhappiness for 10 turns. It doesn't matter how the 34 turns of unhappiness were acquired.

If PieceofMind's interpretation of your post was correct, then you'd wish for a reminder when the unhappiness would reach 0? I could see that you'd like such a reminder for your style of gameplay, it would make things easier.

I would like to add one comment to that: it's often better to whip multiple population points into one construction effort because it will result in the same unhappiness period while you get more production. This means that you'd need to whip when there is still lots of construction to be done on the current construction effort and that is not necessarily at the same moment that the unhappiness counter from whipping reaches 0.

The problem with the micromanagement involved with whipping is that it is so situational that it's hard to set good automatic reminders that work every time. I will often set manual reminders to change the production into something else one turn before the actual moment that I want to whip that thing (to avoid the penalty for rushing something with 0 hammer investment). At other times, I want to whip when overflow will be at the highest. Then there are times that I want to whip when the whipping cost reaches a certain amount of citizens. And of course, there are times that I want to whip just before a city grows. It's too situational for automatic reminders with my playing style.

 

[Caboose]

If PieceofMind's interpretation of your post was correct, then you'd wish for a reminder when the unhappiness would reach 0? I could see that you'd like such a reminder for your style of gameplay, it would make things easier.

Exactly.

You said whipping always costs 1 anger for 10 turns. It doesn't does it?

It costs 1 anger for 10 turns plus the length of anger that already exist from whipping. Which means that every time I whip before the anger is reduced to 0 from the last whip, it becomes more and more "expensive" to whip (in terms of length of anger per whip).

 

[EmperorFool]

In case anyone is still confused, let me tell you what happens from the SDK's point of view.

Every time you whip, you add <whip-cost> turns (10 on normal) to the <anger-counter>. Every turn, this counter is decreased by 1.

The number of citizens from whipping is always equal to

ceiling ( <anger-counter> / <whip-cost> )​

Drafting works the same way.

To answer the original question, yes, it would be possible to add an alert to notify you when <anger-counter> reaches zero and/or every time the number of citizens caused by it decreases.

Could someone please add this to the SF.net feature request tracker?

 

[Roland Johansen]

Exactly.

You said whipping always costs 1 anger for 10 turns. It doesn't does it?

It costs 1 anger for 10 turns plus the length of anger that already exist from whipping. Which means that every time I whip before the anger is reduced to 0 from the last whip, it becomes more and more "expensive" to whip (in terms of length of anger per whip).

I wrote:

Using the hurry production option from slavery always causes 1 unhappiness for 10 turns (modified by game speed settings) independent from the moment that you use the option.

Of course, you can have residual unhappiness from previous times that you used the option, but you can already get a notification when the city becomes happy/unhappy.

Did you mean something else?

and in the post just above yours (927), I explained in quite a lot of detail how it works. The way you choose your words, it seems like the second whip causes the unhappiness of the first whip or increases the effect or something like that. If the previous period of unhappiness isn't over yet, then the next period is added to the remainder of that period and the unhappiness is added together. But it's exactly the same cost for the second whipping. The second whipping doesn't cause a longer period of unhappiness than the first.

If you whip twice, then you'll have 20 turns of unhappiness, independent of the moment that you do the whipping. The additional penalty for whipping repeatedly in a short time period is that you get more than 1 unhappiness during a part of the period but it doesn't lengthen the period of unhappiness.

Read my previous post (927) for examples of how it works. An example can always help to clarify a general explanation. If the examples are clear, then for me it doesn't matter how we put the mechanics in general words.

 

[EmperorFool]

The way you choose your words, it seems like the second whip causes the unhappiness of the first whip or increases the effect or something like that.

In a way it does. When you whip the first time, you get 1 for 10 turns. If you whip again immediately, not only do you get 1 for 10 turns starting 10 turns from now, but you also get an additional 1 for 10 turns starting now.

Put another way, every time you whip you incur an additional 1 for 10 + <anger-counter> turns. Clearly, if <anger-counter> isn't zero, you pay a higher price. The underlying game mechanics are the same; it's how the is calculated from the <anger-counter> that increases the cost for successive whipping.

 

[Roland Johansen]

In a way it does. When you whip the first time, you get 1 for 10 turns. If you whip again immediately, not only do you get 1 for 10 turns starting 10 turns from now, but you also get an additional 1 for 10 turns starting now.

Put another way, every time you whip you incur an additional 1 for 10 + <anger-counter> turns. Clearly, if <anger-counter> isn't zero, you pay a higher price. The underlying game mechanics are the same; it's how the is calculated from the <anger-counter> that increases the cost for successive whipping.

I already mentioned the increased unhappiness in my post. There seemed to be some mention of increased length of the period of unhappiness in Caboose's post which really isn't the case.

Which means that every time I whip before the anger is reduced to 0 from the last whip, it becomes more and more "expensive" to whip (in terms of length of anger per whip).

I don't want to confuse Caboose anymore which is why I referred him to the examples in my post. Examples can often make things clearer. The examples show the increased unhappiness but there is no increased length of anger per whip.

 

[Caboose]

Got it. I think both your explanations were useful.

My point was that it is more expensive to whip if you don't wait until the unhappiness clears off. And like EmperorFool says, in a way it does increase the length of the unhappiness. It even says so when you are about to push the whip button (i.e. "1 unhappiness for 17 turns", as opposed to 10).

In practice, it becomes more and more expensive if I don't wait until the unhappiness clears off before I whip. I don't know if my previous strategy was good, maybe I just didn't think about it enough. I thought the prize of whipping more often than 10 turns seemed too high for normal use (except if I really needed it), but probably it's better to whip like hell if I can and if I have an immediate use for those units.

I guess I should just whip my population to the breaking point when I am in need of the production, so I guess I don't need that auto reminder anyway

Hope I didn't waste too much of your time, Roland. Thanks for explaining.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Got it. I think both your explanations were useful.

My point was that it is more expensive to whip if you don't wait until the unhappiness clears off. And like EmperorFool says, in a way it does increase the length of the unhappiness. It even says so when you are about to push the whip button (i.e. "1 unhappiness for 17 turns", as opposed to 10).

I understand. Maybe this text is even a bit misleading. In that situation:
before whip: 1 unhappiness for 7 turns
after whip: 2 unhappiness for 7 turns followed by 1 unhappiness for 10 turns.

You could describe that as an additional 17 turns of unhappiness but it's a bit vague and easy to misunderstand.

In practice, it becomes more and more expensive if I don't wait until the unhappiness clears off before I whip. I don't know if my previous strategy was good, maybe I just didn't think about it enough, I thought the prize of whipping more often than 10 turns seemed too high for normal use (except if I really needed it), but probably it's better to whip like hell if I can and if I have an immediate use for those units.

It's true that on average, you shouldn't whip more often than once every 10 turns. There have been thousands of posts about the optimal whipping strategy and lots of interesting things can be said about it. The optimal strategy is situational and cannot be summarised easily. One thing is extremely important: getting lots of hammers out of the 10 turns of unhappiness so try to whip multiple population points at once.

Hope I didn't waste too much of your time, Roland. Thanks for explaining.

No problem at all. We were misunderstanding each other for a while.

 

[Caboose]

It's true that on average, you shouldn't whip more often than once every 10 turns.

If that's true, wouldn't such an auto-reminder that I mentioned be an ok idea anyway then? (to have the option to be reminded when anger from whipping clears off)

Hah! Never mind, I see what you mean now. My math terms are a bit slow today. What you're saying is that if I whip more often than every 10 turns on average, unhappiness will increase and increase and increase, which is impossible of course. Can't play this game if my math isn't where it should be :S Practically everything in this game is based on math and calculations.

 

[EmperorFool]

Maybe this text is even a bit misleading. In that situation:
before whip: 1 unhappiness for 7 turns
after whip: 2 unhappiness for 7 turns followed by 1 unhappiness for 10 turns.

You could describe that as an additional 17 turns of unhappiness but it's a bit vague and easy to misunderstand.

I could add a + in BULL so it reads,

+1 for X turns​

In addition to this, how about showing the current stepdown for the anger in the timer hover at the top of the city screen?

[27]

• 3 for 7 turns
• 2 for 10 turns
• 1 for 10 turns

I don't know if this is the best way to display the information, it would only show up when using BULL, and it's unnecessary once you realize how the counter works. Any other suggested ways to display the info?

And yes, an alert would be a good idea.

 

[Roland Johansen]

I could add a + in BULL so it reads,

+1 for X turns​

In addition to this, how about showing the current stepdown for the anger in the timer hover at the top of the city screen?

[27]

• 3 for 7 turns
• 2 for 10 turns
• 1 for 10 turns

I don't know if this is the best way to display the information, it would only show up when using BULL, and it's unnecessary once you realize how the counter works. Any other suggested ways to display the info?

And yes, an alert would be a good idea.

Everything in this post is a good idea. I especially like the timer hover at the top of the screen.

The alert is probably very nice to have for players like Caboose. I personally like to micromanage the whipping cycles to such an extent that I can't think of a good way to use automatic alerts.

It's true that players who have been on this site long enough will sooner or later find themselves in a thread where the exact mechanics of the whipping formula are explained. However, I have seen many players who have no idea how it works (in the Quick answers/Newbie Questions thread). That would have never been the case if the hover would have been like you described it here. It's the way as it should have been done in the first place (which is true for many of the interface improvement of the BUG/BULL mod).

When you're busy with the hurrying hovers anyway ( ), could you also add a warning text in the hurrying hover to warn new players to the hurry cost penalties for hurrying:
-when no turn of construction has been put in the construction that is being hurried
-when you're hurrying a national or world wonder

Many players won't notice these hurrying penalties without actually manually calculation the effective hammers that they get for every population point and there's no reason for players to do that.

edit: Maybe you could also mention the amount of hammers that players get per invested population point and something like 1 hammer/3 gold for hurrying using gold.

Something like:

Hurry cost: 1 hammer/4.5 gold, warning: hurry cost of 150% due to hurrying on first turn of construction
Hurry cost: 15 hammers/population point, warning: hurry cost of 200% due to hurrying a wonder

(Note that not all wonders have the same hurrying penalty: values can be found in the CIV4BuildingInfos.xml file with variable name iHurryCostModifier This variable mentions the additional costs (above 100%). Population hurry costs are also modified by the gamespeed setting.)

 

[EmperorFool]

Could you also add a warning text in the hurrying hover to warn new players to the hurry cost penalties for hurrying:
-when no turn of construction has been put in the construction that is being hurried
-when you're hurrying a national or world wonder

Excellent idea. I've already added the overflow and , and this would make a great complement to them. How are these for wording?

• +100% cost for new build
• +200% cost for Oxford University
• -33% cost from Buildings [Kremlin]

I don't really like the first one, and I'm not sold on "cost". I'll have to look in the SDK to see the game mechanics. Perhaps I should add the full calculation of the cost to the hover since the production modifier also affects the cost.

Edit: Wow, the hurry cost penalties are multiplicative! The above could be misleading, though I think prettier. Should I switch to these:

• x 200% cost for new build
• x 300% cost for Oxford University
• x 67% cost from Buildings [Kremlin]

Drop the "x"?

 

[Roland Johansen]

Excellent idea. I've already added the overflow and , and this would make a great complement to them. How are these for wording?

• +100% cost for 0 invested
• +50% cost for world/national wonder

I don't really like the first one, and I'm not sold on "cost". I'll have to look in the SDK to see the game mechanics. Perhaps I should add the full calculation of the cost to the hover since the production modifier also affects the cost.

I was editing my post a few times while you were replying. The wording you're using works for me: short while still giving the necessary information.

It looks good, but I would also like to see the resulting efficiency of the hurrying mechanic. ( 1 per 4.5 ). So hurrying cost, hurrying efficiency, warning for penalties. Note that both penalties can happen at the same time making it take quite some space.

Whipping is effected by the two penalties mentioned but also multiplied by the usual gamespeed modifiers and production bonuses. Gold rushing is not effected by gamespeed modifiers or production bonuses. Both are effected by the Kremlin world wonder.

The hurrying cost of wonders is effected by the variable iHurryCostModifier in the CIV4BuildingInfos.xml file. This variable mentions the additional costs (above 100%). The extra hurrying cost of hurrying stuff on the first turn of construction is + 50%.

Basic values are: 1 per 3 and 30 per 1 pop

 

[EmperorFool]

Hehe, and I was editing mine while you posted.

First, note that I'll use the correct constants variables when I actually do it. These are just samples. Hurrying a new item is governed by NEW_HURRY_MODIFIER which you say is 50. I never hurry a new item, so I was just guessing.

While the base /population is constant (based on gamespeed), once you add in production modifiers the you get varies based on the number of population due to rounding. This is always annoying.

This dovetails into my original plan long ago (year and a half?) of having a bar that would show the various population points so you could reach a threshold without going over. Yes, I could show how many you'll get whipping now, but I also want to see how many I'll get for 1 less population so I know how many more I can add before whipping to maximize overflow.