Research agreements great scientists will they finally fix it?

[ShahJahanII]

According to 2 German articles, you will now need to be close friends with an empire to sign Research Agreements.
So that is half the problem fixed

 

[apocalypse105]

According to 2 German articles, you will now need to be close friends with an empire to sign Research Agreements.
So that is half the problem fixed

Yeah I was happy to hear that

however I thinx grea scientist are the most strongest abuse hope they fix that olso

 

[turingmachine]

There's no need for a per turn limit or complicated average beaker cost calculations to fix them. Just make them give a base amount times a modifier that adjusts based on the era and not allow overflow (like how the engineer's hammers work). Early techs would be instant, you'd only get part of later techs, you can't really use 2 in a row because you wouldn't be getting the most benefit out of the second.

 

[chazzycat]

I think adding techs to the tree will help cut down on GS. If RAs aren't as available to push through the industrial, plus with more techs, you would need a lot more GS. It changes things if you need 10 or 15 of them instead of 5 or 6.

 

[Louis XXIV]

yeah and you shoud olso limit it per turn so you can't save scientist for massive bulbs

Well all that does is force you to wait one turn. That's why I proposed what I did. Say you have a 100 beaker tech, a 200 one, and a 300 one. Your average is 200. The GS can pop anything up to 400. If the next tech in line is 400 you can get that. However, your average now would only be 250 and you can't go for the 500 cost tech after the 400. You certainly can't go for the 750 cost tech after that.

The point is, the deeper you go, the less you're able to use GS to forge ahead. You have to research similarly expensive techs to raise your average.

EDIT: Maybe I'm just making it too complicated. It could give something like 10x your current beaker amount or something like that and would be nice and simple.

 

[Nials]

There's no need for a per turn limit or complicated average beaker cost calculations to fix them. Just make them give a base amount times a modifier that adjusts based on the era and not allow overflow (like how the engineer's hammers work). Early techs would be instant, you'd only get part of later techs, you can't really use 2 in a row because you wouldn't be getting the most benefit out of the second.

Would make them more in line with how Civ IV scientists behaved, which were still strong for sling-shotting given the right circumstances, but not overpowered.

Btw. I love your name

 

[dexters]

I believe one of the previews noted RA will now only be possible with friends so that limits the number of RA per cycle. Not sure if this will be back patched to the vanilla game, but it seems like a general balance issue that could make it into the vanilla game.

GS should work like engineers. Late game techs- Late industrial to modern era should take at least 2.

They should provide set beakers scaling by era, rather than giving 1 free tech.

That + limiting RA will go a long way in slowing down tech pace and RA exploits. I also wouldn't exclude a redo on all the social policies to accommodate the new features. At which point the 50% RA bonus from the Rationalism opener could well be changed to something else. or toned down, or moved deeper into the tree.

 

[Gucumatz]

I also kind of hope they change Babylon's UA. Perhaps keep the increased production for Great Scientists, but remove the free great scientist. Multiplayer becomes a mess with it.

 

[apocalypse105]

I also kind of hope they change Babylon's UA. Perhaps keep the increased production for Great Scientists, but remove the free great scientist. Multiplayer becomes a mess with it.

I don't feel like all the unique thraiths are designed for multiplayer but more for single player


I mean the greece city state bonus is uselless online if you are playing a dual map or 2 VS 2 with no citystates however they have good units but thats all...

the same with the bazar
And india is pretty much useless

 

[apocalypse105]

I believe one of the previews noted RA will now only be possible with friends so that limits the number of RA per cycle. Not sure if this will be back patched to the vanilla game, but it seems like a general balance issue that could make it into the vanilla game.

GS should work like engineers. Late game techs- Late industrial to modern era should take at least 2.

They should provide set beakers scaling by era, rather than giving 1 free tech.

That + limiting RA will go a long way in slowing down tech pace and RA exploits. I also wouldn't exclude a redo on all the social policies to accommodate the new features. At which point the 50% RA bonus from the Rationalism opener could well be changed to something else. or toned down, or moved deeper into the tree.

I am glad about the research agreement change but I thixn great scientist are the biggest exploit.

ANd you olso ignore other great peron's I had a hotseat game where I had a rule of great scientist you can only use them if you researched half of the technology you want to bulp made other great person better

Why would you go for a great merchant if you could go for a great scientist? You could say you are wasting great people points because you will get great scientist slower this doesn't sound really balanced

You should be happy if you get a merchant same with artist I usally don't go for artist except if I want a culture victory

 

[dexters]

I am glad about the research agreement change but I thixn great scientist are the biggest exploit.

ANd you olso ignore other great peron's I had a hotseat game where I had a rule of great scientist you can only use them if you researched half of the technology you want to bulp made other great person better

Why would you go for a great merchant if you could go for a great scientist? You could say you are wasting great people points because you will get great scientist slower this doesn't sound really balanced

You should be happy if you get a merchant same with artist I usally don't go for artist except if I want a culture victory

I don't play MP so it's a non-issue for me. Also, rebalancing all the great people is beyond the scope of the thread and context of what I was responding to.

We're talking about Firaxis confirming RAs getting readjusted as a friends only compact and speculating on GS adjustments to limit science exploits. I also mentioned the 50% RA bonus from rationalism opener should be moved deeper into the tree or reduced.

It's difficult to argue engineers and scientists are the strongest GPs in the game. But there's really no clamour to make all of them equally useless. If anything Great Artists and Merchants should get something else added to their use, but that's off-topic .

Also you might want to use a browser with spellcheck built in ; it's difficult reading your posts.

 

[bcaiko]

The GS fix actually obviously is:
Make him work like the GA, where he can only culture bomb/discover a free tech every x turns.
(cb is 10 turns afaik, I'd make 'get a free tech' even be blocked for 15 turns).

No more chaining, no more saving up 5-10 GS for rushing completely trough industrial, modern and future era at once.

I like this idea, too. You could also make Great People more exponentially more expensive as they hang around doing nothing (with maybe the exception of Great Generals). That would discourage people from saving up Great People for chains, as well.

 

[MkLh]

I like this idea, too. You could also make Great People more exponentially more expensive as they hang around doing nothing (with maybe the exception of Great Generals). That would discourage people from saving up Great People for chains, as well.

Forced to use GPs instantly would mean less strategy involved. There are too small amount already.

 

[tomaalimosh]

What if the special ability for great people would work like the way the golden ages great people trigger works. For each subsequent use of the same kind of Great person, the effect decreases. And let the great artist have the ability to rush policies...

 

[CYZ]

I think the research agreement should be different entirely.

I'd propose that a research agreement means you both research the same tech, and your beaker input into that tech is combined. This way you won't get an ''instant'' tech but you'll speed up the research of a tech (double it if other civ has the same amount of beaker output). Also, you'll be stuck with researching that tech (or breaking the research agreement->diplomatic penalty), so you need to seriously consider your options.

Also, you can only have one RA at a time then, and it adds a new layer of diplomacy (''I don't want to research that tech with you, but if you pay me x gold then ok'').

 

[MadDjinn]

I think the research agreement should be different entirely.

I'd propose that a research agreement means you both research the same tech, and your beaker input into that tech is combined. This way you won't get an ''instant'' tech but you'll speed up the research of a tech (double it if other civ has the same amount of beaker output). Also, you'll be stuck with researching that tech (or breaking the research agreement->diplomatic penalty), so you need to seriously consider your options.

Also, you can only have one RA at a time then, and it adds a new layer of diplomacy (''I don't want to research that tech with you, but if you pay me x gold then ok'').

except that it's totally unworkable given that 'advanced' civs already have the tech, so 'lagger' civs won't be able to sign RAs with them.

 

[CYZ]

except that it's totally unworkable given that 'advanced' civs already have the tech, so 'lagger' civs won't be able to sign RAs with them.

Oh, I didn't think of that...

How about:

Research agreement means you both get 5% (or 10) of the other's beaker output on top of your own. It will also cost gold based on the amount of beakers your recieve.

That would make it sensible to make RAs with anyone (except your enemies), though civs will only do so if they like you enough (perhaps make DoF a requirement for RA).

 

[Seek]

Oh, I didn't think of that...

How about:

Research agreement means you both get 5% (or 10) of the other's beaker output on top of your own. It will also cost gold based on the amount of beakers your recieve.

That would make it sensible to make RAs with anyone (except your enemies), though civs will only do so if they like you enough (perhaps make DoF a requirement for RA).

This essentially how it works in VEM! 3% of combined research, tripled with a DoF. They're also significantly more expensive.

 

[Gucumatz]

I don't feel like all the unique thraiths are designed for multiplayer but more for single player


I mean the greece city state bonus is uselless online if you are playing a dual map or 2 VS 2 with no citystates however they have good units but thats all...

the same with the bazar
And india is pretty much useless

Well here is the thing most games arent duels or 2v2. Most games nowadays are Fractals/Continents/Pangeas with 6 people and city states. The things you mentioned like Bazaars are actually useful. India's UA can be useful too in multiplayer believe it or not.

But here is the thing, Babylon's UA is so unbalanced when it comes to multiplayer that as a civ everyone almost has to team on it or Korea.

With RA's getting fixed I think we can afford to nerf Babylon's ability a bit too so it isnt officialy the best civ in Multiplayer anymore. Meaning getting rid of the free great scientist.

 

[turingmachine]

With RA's getting fixed I think we can afford to nerf Babylon's ability a bit too so it isnt officialy the best civ in Multiplayer anymore. Meaning getting rid of the free great scientist.

It makes much more sense to nerf great scientists directly than nerf Babylon's ability. GS are overpowered as they are. If you nerf Babylon and not address the GS issue, then you still have a problem. If you nerf Babylon and the GS then most likely Babylon will be underpowered. If you fix the GS, then Babylon is indirectly nerfed and you kill two birds with one stone.