Research + Economy suck! What am I doing wrong!?

[Janook]

Hi everyone. I need some help.
Every game, no matter what I do or try, I get into problems.
I'm ALWAYS lagging behind in research, and I need to bring my research down below %30 to keep my money in the positive.

I don't know why, I can't figure it out. I'm playing on Noble.
I just can't find a way to make more money!

Take a look at my save game, I'm uploading it. (Warlords)
I'd really appreciate any help!

In this specific game, I started off with one rival on my island. He started on a peninsula to the south, so I blocked him off with my own city, then pumped out swordsman, and captures/destroyed each of this 3 cities.

After that, it's been peaceful. I've been building, researching, and just expanding to fill up my island. I haven't completely filled it because, like I said, I've just got no money!

I don't know what to do.. I'm using the better AI mod, with automated workers and automated citizens. I've got ALOT of workers and most of my terrain is upgraded.

HELP!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97106/upload.CivWarlordsSave

 

[mice]

You're working your cottages so this econ will recover. The problem is 9 cities pre - currency.

That's too many usually. Currency gives 1 trade route per city, so 1 gpt to help it cover costs. Also courthouses are needed if you want to take so many cities.

A basic strat could be to stay at 4 cities until currrency/CoL , and then expand it out to 9-10. Work the cottages as you have, and tech trade wisely. This way you will stay ahead of the AI on Noble, no trouble at all.

You have some great land there. Could you replay the game from the point of 3 or 4 cities and Beeline to Currency/ CoL to expand. See if it works out better. Waiting maight mean you face longbows, but thats just the way it goes.

 

[Harbourboy]

Without even looking, I can suggest that problem is almost certainly too many cities.

 

[Mercenary82]

This game is very hard to salvage, its 1350's and you don't have CoL and currency yet, you need to get these 2 techs before expanding beyond 5-6 cities.

 

[Jorunkun]

In general, I'd say the main drivers of stalling economies in the first third of the game are:

1. too many cities
2. not enough cottages or other sources of income
3. military upkeep

Nine cities is far too many this early in the game, try to make do with three to five well developed ones instead. Focus on specialising one or two of them as commerce/science cities, with early cottages and libraries, then scale up the size of your empire in line with what your economy can support.

Also, it really pays to have early libraries running scientists for a steady stream of GSs. Even if you are poor monetarily, you can stay competitve by lightbulbing techs.

 

[Janook]

Thanks for the tips, everyone.
Generally, what %science are you able to uphold during the beginning of the game? 100%? 80? 50?

 

[pigswill]

Quick look at save. Like everyone says CoL and Currency. Currency allows you to build money to sort out your cashflow as well as extra trade route and market places.
I'd research currency first then CoL. Whip courhouses asap. Your economy should be back in shape by 1500.
Science rate is misleading. The factor that determines research speed is beakers/turn.

As has been said already in your next game its probably better to build three or four cities at the start; build up a decent army and then go to war once you've got currency and/or CoL either by research or by trade.

 

[UncleJJ]

I took a quick look at your save as well. You have been successful in war and captured or built 28 workers... that is far too many for 9 cities and this stage of the game where most tile improvements have been made. I would delete 18 workers that are sitting idle in your cities to save about 9 gold / turn.

Once you have researched Currency I would adopt Slavery and whip away those unhappy citizens. Unhappy citizens don't only eat 2 food and do nothing useful they also increase the maintenance costs in the city and the cost of your civics. If you haven't tried Slavery before it is an amazingly powerful way to control your population and get lots of production at the same time, but you do need something useful to whip in. I suggest you research Code of Laws after Currency and then whip in courthouses after markets. Incidently with furs and ivory a marketplace will add 2 happiness to the city and get rid of the unhappiness as well.

Trade with other civs: You can trade furs to Saladin for 8 gold per turn and that is a great deal. Selling Ivory to Ragnar might not be such a good idea at least until you have something that can stop War Elephants.

Good Luck.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Thanks for the tips, everyone.
Generally, what %science are you able to uphold during the beginning of the game? 100%? 80? 50?

Science percentage only tells you how much of your commerce is diverted to research, not how much total science you are generating. The real number you should be looking at is how many beakers you are producing empirewide. That will tell you how fast you are going to get tech.

Work two scientists in a library and you are making +6 beakers before the 25% bonus, or 7.5 from two scientists. Since none of this is generated from your commerce, you still get the 7.5 beakers per turn at 0% science rate. A single specialized Science city like those described in the articles on city specialization can still plow through tech at a decent clip, even at 30% science rate.

Oh, back to the game. Same advice as everyone before:
Before CoL and currency, having 9 cities is real hard to manage unless you are working as many scientists and cottages as you can afford in an attempt to reach these two technologies ASAP. Once there, get those marketplaces in place for more happy people working and get those courthouses in place asap where the maintenance costs are highest.

One extra point - I didn't check if you had already gone to Hereditary Rule (Monarchy) but that can help raise your happy cap too (turning those unhappy citizens into productive citizens can help you get CoL and Currency faster).

 

[cabert]

Can't open the save right now, but wow 1350 AD and no CoL and no currency???
Seems so unlikely I just can't imagine it.
If you check some of the GotMs, you'll see that some people already have mass media at this time .
Can you trade something?
Can you do some pointy stick research? (= attacking then sueing for peace, gaining some techs in the peace treaty)
Did you have some Great people already?
If not, you can gain them fast (the first ones are cheap) and lightbulb your way to some tradable techs. Building libraries almost everywhere and running 2 scientists will give you enough teching power at 0% and the lightbulbing will let you catch up. Just be aware of the GP tech preferences.


And 28 workers for 9 cities? Let's hope you didn't build them all...
18 would be a lot.
If you're done with most improvements, disband some of those.
The trades uncleJJ indicated seem fair to me.
Building wealth isn't possible until currency, but maybe you can build a wonder for the sake of failing to get it. It's 2 gold / hammer invested, meaning that a failed pyramids can give you over 800 gold

 

[Lord Sandwich]

There's no problem with going for an early war, just don't keep the cities. The AI's city placement tends to be subpar at best, so you're just keeping the space open for yourself. There are two ways to go about this:
1. Burn their outer cities, leaving yourself room to expand and for barbs to come at you for free xp.
2. Burn their inner cities, crippling their economy and production and generating sweet cash from all that pillaging.

 

[PublicEnemy]

Not having CoL and Currency by 1350AD would explain why you have these problems every game.

You obviously didn't understand the value of these two techs. Start a new game and make these techs a much higher priority. With the extra trade route per city and courthouses everywhere you'll realise where you've been going wrong.

 

[Bursk]

Is it generally better to get Currency or CoL first?

 

[UncleJJ]

Not having CoL and Currency by 1350AD would explain why you have these problems every game.

You obviously didn't understand the value of these two techs. Start a new game and make these techs a much higher priority. With the extra trade route per city and courthouses everywhere you'll realise where you've been going wrong.

I suggest he plays this game through to the stage of researching Currency and Code of Laws and then installs marketplaces and courthouses in his cities. Then he'll appreciate more fully the effect these can have on his empire's economy as the gold he's haemorrhaging at present is reduced and much more is earned. Then maybe start afresh and modify his research and warfare strategies.

 

[PublicEnemy]

Is it generally better to get Currency or CoL first?

I often find that part of the tech tree varies greatly from one game to the next.

Once you have Mathematics you have a choice of Calendar, Construction and Currency. If you add Literature and CoL into the mix then it's hard to give a definite answer to your question. It really depends on the circumstances of the game.

 

[UncleJJ]

Is it generally better to get Currency or CoL first?

A difficult question that depends on many other things besides how it affects your economy.

Currency gives a trade route, allows trading techs for gold and building marketplaces (for 25% bonus, upto +4 happiness and running 2 merchants) and building wealth (turns hammers to gold).

Code of Laws gives the civic Caste System, allows courthouses to cut city maintenace by 50% and the first civ to research it founds Confusionism.

Those are all very different sets of things and depending on your Leader's traits, the map situation, who your neighbours are what sort of game you want to play you might decide to research one before the other. But you definitely need both and the sooner the better in most circumstances. Both are high priority vital techs.

 

[Bursk]

Thanks, you two. I thought there probably wasn't a definative answer.

I'm aware that they are both key techs, but I usually find myself wondering which to go for first.

 

[UncleJJ]

If they are both equally valuable to you and you can research both then Currency will give a small research discount to Code of Laws. So if all other things are equal take Currency before Code of Laws.

 

[cabert]

If they are both equally valuable to you and you can research both then Currency will give a small research discount to Code of Laws. So if all other things are equal take Currency before Code of Laws.

right

Also remember that CoL and currency can be traded for, provided you have something to offer. Metal Casting is usually the best trade bait for this.

 

[Bursk]

That makes sense, especially if I'm not likely to be the first to CoL. Thanks, UncleJJ and Kermit.