Research + Economy suck! What am I doing wrong!?

[pigswill]

With a number of neighbours tech trading is the easiest way to catch up on techs. As cabert said metal-casting is good because few AI research it early. One of the other factors to consider in tech-trading is that you have the pre-requisite techs. If you want to trade for CoL and Monarchy then you need to know priesthood, if you want to trade for construction, currency and calendar then you need to know mathematics. Another good trade tech is alphabet.

 

[jeremiahrounds]

I got currency without even pressing next turn =) I saw the primary reason neither of my neighbors liked me and wouldnt trade something for drama was our religions. So i canceled my state religion and traded drama for currency to saladin..

Though to be honest I only got currency cause everyone else was digging it. I think maybe monarchy might be better in this situation.

I also think strategically we are making nice with our neighbors for as long as possible. So I gifted an extra luxury to each. One of them still refuses to trade but maybe in time. I really want to move over to their religion but thats not an option yet.





Note i am not using your AI. Also disband about 10 workers. And also take control of them. And btw I think windmills are a better choice for those green hills around old sarai.

At this skill level you can recover this. Just focus a ton of energy into making nice with your two neighbors. Also cave to any demands they make! Those result in +1 relations instead of -1.
Turn 1:
cancelled religion. traded saladin drama for currency
disbanded workers to 7 unit cost
started researching monarchy (7 turns to research after anarchy)
negotiated open borders
Turn 2:
traded saladin one extra copper for 7 gold a turn and one of his extra silver.
took aim at removing barbarian generating fog of war from continent
after trade research at 50% with-12 coinand monarchy in 5 turns.

Turn 1370 (what ever that is 4 or 6 or something)
realized cities werent using all available commerce. went around putting a priority on commerce and food in the short term.
research at 50% coin at +1 a turn!

Turn 1376 AD
Change government to monarchy. Went back to paganism to save money since we cant use a religion to pacify and make more likely trading partners out of our neighbors.
Ragnarz is pleased with our wisely choosen civics, given tribute, fair trade, years of peace.
He trades us Code of laws for Drama and 50 gold. He offered literature and 410 gp passed on that.

Turn 1388 AD
We live under hereditary rule. We have a city of size 12, two of size 11 and two of size 10. And none of those cities have to deal with any citizens refusing to work. [ponder that some people wanted those useless citizens whipped]
We are up to researching literature in 3 turns from start to finish.

Started a forest chopping campaign to build infrastructure.

Our neighbors are set up as pleased and an ally to the pleased guy. (easy enough to keep the peace).

We should be able to recover and close the gap in time to win.

Basically your idea is to draft on your neighbors until you are strong again. At this point you arnt trying to beat your near bye friends dont antagonize them. They arnt the war. the war is the whole game and right now you need those guys as buddies.

disclaimer: better ai might be meaner.

 

[axident]

If they are both equally valuable to you and you can research both then Currency will give a small research discount to Code of Laws. So if all other things are equal take Currency before Code of Laws.

Lots of good answers. I like this one. But if you really want to found a religion or something and it's still available, you may want to go CoL first.

What I do is usually go for Currency if I'm still building granaries or other basic infrastructure, but if I'm about to run out of buildings to build, I'd rather go CoL and build courthouses. Good part about Currency is that it's an IMMEDIATE boost to your economy, whereas CoL requires that you build courthouses to get the benefit. But CoL's benefit is usually greater than the +1 trade route benefit of Currency.

 

[CliftonBazaar]

Go for Code of Laws and change over to 'caste system'; then you can put a Great merchant in each city.
With 9 cities that would make 8 Merchants (there will be at least one city that can't afford to run a specialist) - for a total of 24gp a turn.

If a city can afford more than one Merchant then get another one,

 

[Janook]

Thanks for all the help, especially jeremiah, that's more effort than I expected anyone to put in.

I started a new game, with a new emphasis on CoL and Currency. Things are going much better. With the help of the other AI, united by religion, we wiped out India. I got his two biggest cities, which included 1 wonder and the founding of 3 religions AND the religous wonder buildings, so I've got a solid economic setup. (2 or 3 cities on the west where Ghandis.)

Right now, I'm trying to solidify my defenses with musketmen. When I get my defenses up, I'll be making sure every city has a courthouse, forge, and market. Then, I'll start building knights, or if I have them, Calvalry(baracks + Ger = 6 starting xp.) I'll either attack Mao Zedang, whose my current threat, or Alexander, since he's the natural enemy to me + the other 2 AI, due to religious differences.

Whatdya think? Again, Warlords, using BetterAI. Worker and citizens/specialists are automated.

P.S. Just now, for the first time, I'm using the emphasis buttons. Hopefully I did the right things; I've never really tried it before.

save game: http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97106/upload.CivWarlordsSave

 

[cabert]

Thanks for all the help, especially jeremiah, that's more effort than I expected anyone to put in.

I started a new game, with a new emphasis on CoL and Currency. Things are going much better. With the help of the other AI, united by religion, we wiped out India. I got his two biggest cities, which included 1 wonder and the founding of 3 religions AND the religous wonder buildings, so I've got a solid economic setup. (2 or 3 cities on the west where Ghandis.)

Right now, I'm trying to solidify my defenses with musketmen. When I get my defenses up, I'll be making sure every city has a courthouse, forge, and market. Then, I'll start building knights, or if I have them, Calvalry(baracks + Ger = 6 starting xp.) I'll either attack Mao Zedang, whose my current threat, or Alexander, since he's the natural enemy to me + the other 2 AI, due to religious differences.

Whatdya think? Again, Warlords, using BetterAI. Worker and citizens/specialists are automated.

P.S. Just now, for the first time, I'm using the emphasis buttons. Hopefully I did the right things; I've never really tried it before.

You don't need a market everywhere (except if you have ivory; silk, fur and whales ). THe money will come from your shrines. Build the market there, and let the other cities build libraries or units.

 

[axident]

Go for Code of Laws and change over to 'caste system'; then you can put a Great merchant in each city.
With 9 cities that would make 8 Merchants (there will be at least one city that can't afford to run a specialist) - for a total of 24gp a turn.

If a city can afford more than one Merchant then get another one,

Are you sure you know how the GPP system works? This has got to be the antithesis of GP farming... and for MERCHANTS and not engineers and scientists?!

 

[cabert]

Are you sure you know how the GPP system works? This has got to be the antithesis of GP farming... and for MERCHANTS and not engineers and scientists?!

sure he said great merchant
but if you translate this to merchant specialist, the rest of the post is right.

 

[UncleJJ]

I took a quick look at your new game and you are doing a lot better. Well done. Here are a few comments.

The cities with shrines should get grocers as well as marketplaces for another 25% gold boost.

New cities nearly always need a granary before a courthouse. A granary effectively doubles your food production and hence population growth. That will boost future growth more than anything else.

You are running the Organised Religion civic which boosts hammer production by 25% when building buildings and wonders. But it only works in cities with your state religion. So be sure to spread Buddhism to all your cities to get the benefit only about half have it now.

Another reason to spread your state religion is to give +1 culture. Border cities need to have culture to counter act the culture of your neighbours and to expand your territory. Samarquand and Ning-Hsia both need a Buddist missionary at least.

Have you considered what type of victory you are going for? I'd say you can win by Space (if you concentrate on research), Diplomatic (you have very good relations with everyone) or Domination (if you build up a very strong military).

Good luck.

 

[pigswill]

Janook: don't forget that once you've got 8 cities and 6 courthouses Forbidden Palace becomes available which also helps with distance maintenance.

 

[Janook]

Erm, pardon my noobiness.. but what are shrines? I don't see them anywhere or on the civilopedia.

 

[axident]

Erm, pardon my noobiness.. but what are shrines? I don't see them anywhere or on the civilopedia.

Founding a religion is nice, in that if you spread it around, your neighbors might convert to your religion. But to make it even sweeter, get a Great Prophet and tell him to build a holy shrine in your holy city. The shrine produces 4 culture and you get a gold per turn for every city in the WORLD that has that religion, plus it speeds up the spread of that religion. E.g., if you found Buddhism, and get a great prophet to build a shrine to Buddhism, then Buddhism spreads faster. That 1 gold per turn per city in the world starts to add up as the game progresses, and oftentimes you can run 90% or even 100% research if you spread your religion around enough so that your holy city pays maintenance all by itself. Add Spiral Minaret and sell some spare resources and you're guaranteed 100% research rate.

EDIT: One other thing I forgot to add: if you have the holy city and it has the shrine, then you get line-of-sight into every city in the world that has that religion. It's like spying way before you can build actual spies.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Shrines are the unique buildings that can be built by Great Prophets only in the holy city of a religion. An example is the Church of the Nativity, the shrine of Christianity. Shrines give you a line of sight into every city with that religion (if it is your state religion), and they generate lots of cash as well as culture. So now you have an added reason to conduct foreign missionary activity.

[EDIT: Dadgummit, axident beat me to it! Oh, well, I hope this helps anyway.]

 

[Janook]

Oh, those. Yeah, my religious foundations are turning into a real powerhouse. I've got every shrine built (except for taosim, whose founding city I don't own), and I also have the 2 wonders that give production and gold for each religious building that is my state religion.

 

[UncleJJ]

EDIT: One other thing I forgot to add: if you have the holy city and it has the shrine, then you get line-of-sight into every city in the world that has that religion. It's like spying way before you can build actual spies.

Not quite right. If you have the Holy Shrine of your state religion then you can see into all other cities that have that religion. If you have multiple shrines you can change your state religion to look at other cities.

Spies give a lot more information than holy shrines (like information about happiness, buildings and build queue) . I'd say the shrine is more like having a scout in each city, letting you view stacks and tiles.

Janook; in your latest game Delhi has two shrines already built, if I remember correctly, I guess you captured them. You can see they already give you a nice gold income and I was suggesting you boost that by building a grocer in Delhi. You can also boost the shrine income by spreading the religions to more cities using missionaries. You can spread religions to other civ's cities if you have open border.

edit: I see you've found out about the shrines

 

[axident]

Not quite right. If you have the Holy Shrine of your state religion then you can see into all other cities that have that religion. If you have multiple shrines you can change your state religion to look at other cities.

Spies give a lot more information than holy shrines (like information about happiness, buildings and build queue) . I'd say the shrine is more like having a scout in each city, letting you view stacks and tiles.

Janook; in your latest game Delhi has two shrines already built, if I remember correctly, I guess you captured them. You can see they already give you a nice gold income and I was suggesting you boost that by building a grocer in Delhi. You can also boost the shrine income by spreading the religions to more cities using missionaries. You can spread religions to other civ's cities if you have open border.

edit: I see you've found out about the shrines

I said that a holy city/holy shrine gave you line of sight; I did not say that it gave you more than line of sight, so I wouldn't read everything as literally as you seem to be reading it. I said it was "like" spying in that it gave line of sight.

Also, I think it's a matter of common sense that if you have multiple holy cities with holy shrines, you can switch to get various line of sight bonuses.

You're right about open borders speeding things up as well.

Also note that it's possible, albeit rare, to have a single city be holy in different faiths. Religions get founded where none exists, so it's usually your pop-1 city out in the hinterlands that founds your new religion, but if all of your cities have religion, or if you only have one city, you hit the mother lode of gold. Build as many shrines as you can in that city and spam missionaries, build wall street, bank, grocer, and marketplace, and watch the dough roll in.

 

[pigswill]

If you've got a city with a shrine (or even two!) that's often a good location to build Wall Street because shrines give you gold independent of research/money slider.

 

[bardolph]

Hi everyone. I need some help.
Every game, no matter what I do or try, I get into problems.
I'm ALWAYS lagging behind in research, and I need to bring my research down below %30 to keep my money in the positive.

I don't know why, I can't figure it out. I'm playing on Noble.
I just can't find a way to make more money!

Take a look at my save game, I'm uploading it. (Warlords)
I'd really appreciate any help!

In this specific game, I started off with one rival on my island. He started on a peninsula to the south, so I blocked him off with my own city, then pumped out swordsman, and captures/destroyed each of this 3 cities.

After that, it's been peaceful. I've been building, researching, and just expanding to fill up my island. I haven't completely filled it because, like I said, I've just got no money!

I don't know what to do.. I'm using the better AI mod, with automated workers and automated citizens. I've got ALOT of workers and most of my terrain is upgraded.

HELP!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97106/upload.CivWarlordsSave

Hmm... I downloaded the save game, and it looks like your "improved" save instead of your "problem" save, so I can't really comment.

Salvaging a crashed economy is a very useful skill, and contrary to popular opinion, it CAN be done. However, you may have to take drastic measures.

I recommend playing from your original "problem spot," and try the following:

• Drop the science slider to zero.
• Address all unhappy/unhealthy citizens, either by making them happy, or slaving them away.
• Disband units until you get out of the red.
• Make sure you're working cottages wherever you can.
• If you own a shrine, spam missionaries for that religion. Don't stop spamming missionaries until your economy is recovered.
• Trade your extra resources for gold.
• Make sure you have open borders with some civs, the trade routes can help.
• Research CoL and Currency for courthouses and markets. (You may have to use specialists if your science slider is at 0%).

If you follow this plan, your economy will eventually recover, and you can slide your research back up.

I've played several games where I crashed my economy in the classical/medieval era, then recovered for a win. It just takes planning, persistence, and patience.

When you play aggressively, it's easy to expand faster than your economy can handle. When this happens, it is NOT the end of the world. Just take some time out to address your economic issues.

This strategy does have risks. If you end up disbanding many military units, you may be vulnerable during your recovery period. However, if your neighbors are badly damaged by your recent attacks, it's likely they will not be able to exploit your vulnerability anyway. If you DO get attacked during this period, then losing a few cities may be the fastest way for you to recover your economy anyway, so again, all is not lost.

I think it's important to "play on" from difficult positions, rather than giving up and restoring a previous save point. Your game will improve best when you're facing real challenges.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Thanks for all the help, especially jeremiah, that's more effort than I expected anyone to put in.

Whatdya think? Again, Warlords, using BetterAI. Worker and citizens/specialists are automated.

I'm surprised nobody commented on this.

I recommend you NEVER automate workers and AVOID automating specialists. (Even the smartest AIs are still pretty ignorant compared to us human folk.)

I usually want hella Scientists when the AI thinks I should be running Engineers.

And depending on what my city's building and how close I am to teching into another building opportunity, I'll often sacrifice hammers to grow my city or my cottages faster.

"Micromanaging" takes longer when you first start doing it, but after a few games, it becomes second nature and blends right into your game.

The computer seems to be the worst when it comes to Worker automation, though.

My biggest example is building cottages on plains. In the early game, having that hammer is nice while you're working your cottage, but what about the end game?

Assuming a Golden Age and all the goodies like Printing Press, Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, Irrigation, etc., if you decide to Farm one and Cottage the other, your late-game Golden Age might look like this:

Farmed Grassland = 5 food, 2 commerce
Town Plains = 1 food , 3 hammers, 9 commerce
Total = 6, 3, 11

Town Grassland = 3 food , 2 hammers, 9 commerce
Farmed Plains = 3 food , 2 hammers, 2 commerce
Total = 6, 4, 11

During a Golden Age, that extra goes a long way.

This is a gross exageration (especially since it assumes so many things), but I find in most situations, building a Town on a Grassland seems the smarter choice if I have to choose between an equally rich Plains tile.

Long story short, your play style and early-game:late-game preference may not be that of the AI. Before automating your workers, make sure they're orders jive with your goal.

BTW, if I automate, it's usually 2 workers to make a trade network -- ensuring newly discovered or cultured-in resources are connected as quickly as possible in the event I overlook them.

I recommend playing from your original "problem spot," and try the following:

Ditto this. Even if you lose the game, you'll learn heaps about how to maintain a thriving economy by nursing a sick one back to health.

Some of my most rewarding games have been the ones I wanted to just <Alt><F4> out of. Sticking with a game and looking at it from every angle is usually the best recipe for learning.


Hope that was helpful.

 

[bardolph]

I'm surprised nobody commented on this.

I recommend you NEVER automate workers and AVOID automating specialists. (Even the smartest AIs are still pretty ignorant compared to us human folk.)

I usually want hella Scientists when the AI thinks I should be running Engineers.

The worker automation under the BetterAI mod is decent. When you're learning city management and how to wage war, having to micromanage your workers can be overwhelming (not to mention tedious). I usually end up running about a third of my workers under automation. Under Options, you can instruct your workers to leave existing improvements.

One problem with automation, however, is that if you cancel a worker's orders after the AI has given him a task, that worker loses his turn

Once you learn how to run city governors, you can usually get any result you want, and much faster than micromanaging your tiles.

If you want scientists, you can select "Emphasize Science/Emphasize Great People." If you're only after maximum beakers (GPPs aren't important to you), then just Emphasize Science.

You can emphasize any combination of hammers, commerce, or food, or even all three (if you want to avoid specialists), and the "avoid growth" button will take city growth down to 1 or 0, depending on available tiles.

If you need particular specialists, then you can "lock in" those specialists using the specialist dials.

And the biggest benefit from using a governor is that it'll automatically assign new citizens according to your priorities, instead of leaving them as 1H "citizens"!

The only thing that the city governors won't do is starve your city, so if you want to run a food deficit, then you have to turn your governor off.

"Micromanaging" takes longer when you first start doing it, but after a few games, it becomes second nature and blends right into your game.

This is true. But managing your governors can give you the same results.

The computer seems to be the worst when it comes to Worker automation, though.

My biggest example is building cottages on plains. In the early game, having that hammer is nice while you're working your cottage, but what about the end game?

Assuming a Golden Age and all the goodies like Printing Press, Universal Suffrage, Free Speech, Irrigation, etc., if you decide to Farm one and Cottage the other, your late-game Golden Age might look like this:

Farmed Grassland = 5 food, 2 commerce
Town Plains = 1 food , 3 hammers, 9 commerce
Total = 6, 3, 11

Town Grassland = 3 food , 2 hammers, 9 commerce
Farmed Plains = 2 food , 2 hammers, 2 commerce
Total = 5, 4, 11

During a Golden Age, I'd rather the extra than the extra .

I wasn't aware that Golden Ages produced bonus food at all.