Researchers Trace Evolution To Relatively Simple Genetic Changes

The Last Conformist said:
The fragmentation of a larger nebula into a number of smaller, denser, protostellar nebulae. Duh!

This isn't a path I'd like to walk down if I believed in a Creator ...

i never mentioned a creator, why are you bringing that into this conversation that has nothing to do with a creator.

Are you just going to ask this until we get to the big bang?

lets go to before the big bang, where did that matter come from?
 
HighlandWarrior said:
lets go to before the big bang, where did that matter come from?
Who says there was a before the big bang?
 
HighlandWarrior said:
i never mentioned a creator, why are you bringing that into this conversation that has nothing to do with a creator.
A creator, or lack of one, lurks behind all of these dscussions. ;)
HighlandWarrior said:
lets go to before the big bang, where did that matter come from?
Naturally, everything said about what is/was prior to creation is speculative, none the less, it's worth discussing.

Time would have originated with the big bang. Prior to it there would not have been time. Time is bound to change so it started as discrete matter changed. I would suggest that matter did not exist prior to the creation point (the big bang).
 
Smidlee said:
there is a lot in common in manufacturing plants and green plants which both use the laws of thermodynamics can produce a product. Yet the green plants are a lot more efficient than any man-made factory even with our knowledge of the law of thermodynamics.
This is also true when compare to the human brain to a super-computer. The greatest enemy of a PC is heat. the brain is many time more powerful than a big super-computer yet it's uses extremely low wattages compare to even a normal PC. This is probably one reason many engineers rejects evolution since it claims what they design with the complex mathematic of thermodynamics was done better and a lot more efficient by random mutation.

first, plants are quite ineffective - think of the huge lot of energy they lose that you can see as red fluorescence!
second, the brain is working by a different principle than a PC, thus your comparison is totally invalid
Thrid, where are those 'many' engineers?
 
HighlandWarrior said:
ive found it hard to believe since 3rd grade when we learned how the earth was formed. matter does not just come from nowhere, somehow the matter that formed the earth came from somewhere, but where? matter cannot be made from nothing. i refuse to accept a theory that has not been proven by the scientific method.
so your problem is the big bang?

@carlos, point me in the direction a good site on origin of life.
I'll keep my eyes peeled for one - atm I do no know of one that would be understandable for someone who is not a grad student in biology.
 
smidlee, just one simple question I'd like answered before I take any of your posts serious again:

there is a large bunch of evidence FOR evolution, none whatsoever for creation. This has been shown to you about 100 tiems here in various threads.
So far, you never tried to debunk any of the information given, you just ignore it. THis prompts the question how you want to do away with it?


What about all the evidence FOR evolution that cannot be reasonably explained by creation?
 
HighlandWarrior said:
i never mentioned a creator, why are you bringing that into this conversation that has nothing to do with a creator.
Rather someone is a creationists or evolutionists both deals with some kind of a creator. While one creator is an very intelligent spiritual being the other is physical mud. In the begininng mud came to live and formed the bacteria god named Godteria which continues consumed more mud and sunlight to form all complex life forms that exist today. in the Wizard of Ooze strawmen can come alive. ;)
 
Birdjaguar said:
A creator, or lack of one, lurks behind all of these dscussions. ;)
Naturally, everything said about what is/was prior to creation is speculative, none the less, it's worth discussing.

Time would have originated with the big bang. Prior to it there would not have been time. Time is bound to change so it started as discrete matter changed. I would suggest that matter did not exist prior to the creation point (the big bang).

matter did not exist prior to the creation point? so where did the matter come from? matter does just not appear out of no where(or gases or whatever).

I'll keep my eyes peeled for one - atm I do no know of one that would be understandable for someone who is not a grad student in biology.

Give me the one for the grad students. my problem is alot bigger than just the big bang, but i figured why not go to the beginning. I'm still waiting for those fossil records of flowering plants documenting the x number of mutations leading to the formation of the stamen.
 
HighlandWarrior said:
i never mentioned a creator, why are you bringing that into this conversation that has nothing to do with a creator.
You're quite wrong. This discussion has alot to do with beliefs in creators.

If you want to discuss the origins of the Earth without reference to the ev/cre debate, do that somewhere else.
 
carlosMM said:
first, plants are quite ineffective - think of the huge lot of energy they lose that you can see as red fluorescence!
It seems you are referring to the amount of sunlight a leaf can absorb as photosynthesis while I was referring more to the plant as a whole. I realize a leaf though photosynthsis only captures a small amount (3%-8%) of the sunlight with most of it is reflecting back. The leaf can only uses so much sunlight as with an engine cylinder can only use so much gas per cycle. After that it's a waste. Yet once the plant absorbs the energy is very effcient is converting it into work. I would hate to see what would happen if a leaf did absorb 100% of the sunlight for it would seem to me this would make a forest very dark with black leaf trees growing like mad.
 
If photosynthesis were more effective, the plant wouldn't need so much leaf area, which translates into less metabolic cost of building the prerequisite leaf area, which translates into more energy for procreation.
 
Around my house there is this vine that doesn't knows when to stop growing , it was overtake a forest ,light poles and even my mailbox and it extremely hard to get rid of it. if this vine was able to absorbs 100% sunlight it would have conquered the world by now.
 
Smidlee said:
Around my house there is this vine that doesn't knows when to stop growing , it was overtake a forest ,light poles and even my mailbox and it extremely hard to get rid of it. if this vine was able to absorbs 100% sunlight it would have conquered the world by now.
If plants did that there would be numerous things that would slow them down:
1. Increased world oxygen levels would increase photorespiration slowing growth
2. Increased oxygen levels would also increase forest fires,which would decrease the amount of sunlight available and kill plants
3. Increased amounts of plants would increase the amount of herbivores

So a more efficient plant would be slowed by many ways, sure plant levels would increase, but these factors would help keep it in check
 
Smidlee said:
there is a lot in common in manufacturing plants and green plants which both use the laws of thermodynamics can produce a product. Yet the green plants are a lot more efficient than any man-made factory even with our knowledge of the law of thermodynamics.
This is also true when compare to the human brain to a super-computer. The greatest enemy of a PC is heat. the brain is many time more powerful than a big super-computer yet it's uses extremely low wattages compare to even a normal PC. This is probably one reason many engineers rejects evolution since it claims what they design with the complex mathematic of thermodynamics was done better and a lot more efficient by random mutation.
Yes, it does seem rather unlikely that intelligent beings could have designed something has powerful yet efficient as the human brain.

...and that's suppose to be an argument *against* evolution???
 
Smidlee said:
Rather someone is a creationists or evolutionists both deals with some kind of a creator. While one creator is an very intelligent spiritual being the other is physical mud.
Are those the only two choices?
 
Well, no, but it's worth pointing out that while mud is known to be capable of creating quite complex stuff, very intelligent spiritual beings have not even been shown to exist. IOW, the smart money is on the mud.
 
Mise said:
I suppose if your doctor said you needed an operation but your barber said you just needed some frogs and snails and puppy dogs tails you'd take trust him over the professional??

If my physician said I needed an operation I like MANY OTHER people may go to another physician for a SECOND OPINION. People do that ALL THE TIME. Also some people go to someone without a medical degree for a second opinion like an Eastern medicine practioner or acupuncturist or whatever else is out there. I'm not into that, but a lot of people are.

Fact is, there ARE scientists who doubt evolution or parts of it. I'm guessing the number that doubt it or part of it would be similar to the number who doubt the Big Bang theory. The Big Bang theory or the methodology behind it is extremely flawed yet the Big Bang is accepted as dogma.

http://www.cosmologystatement.org/

Look at all the people who signed the statement and note their impressive credentials. For example, one of them is part of Caltech or the Calfornia Institute of Technology which is associated with NASA. Your attitude of "do not doubt the experts" is exactly the OPPOSITE of the attitude that scientists should have and it's the same attitude that causes this problem with the Big Bang theory:

The big bang today relies on a growing number of hypothetical entities, things that we have never observed-- inflation, dark matter and dark energy are the most prominent examples. Without them, there would be a fatal contradiction between the observations made by astronomers and the predictions of the big bang theory. In no other field of physics would this continual recourse to new hypothetical objects be accepted as a way of bridging the gap between theory and observation. It would, at the least, raise serious questions about the validity of the underlying theory.

But the big bang theory can't survive without these fudge factors. Without the hypothetical inflation field, the big bang does not predict the smooth, isotropic cosmic background radiation that is observed, because there would be no way for parts of the universe that are now more than a few degrees away in the sky to come to the same temperature and thus emit the same amount of microwave radiation.

Without some kind of dark matter, unlike any that we have observed on Earth despite 20 years of experiments, big-bang theory makes contradictory predictions for the density of matter in the universe. Inflation requires a density 20 times larger than that implied by big bang nucleosynthesis, the theory's explanation of the origin of the light elements. And without dark energy, the theory predicts that the universe is only about 8 billion years old, which is billions of years younger than the age of many stars in our galaxy.

What is more, the big bang theory can boast of no quantitative predictions that have subsequently been validated by observation. The successes claimed by the theory's supporters consist of its ability to retrospectively fit observations with a steadily increasing array of adjustable parameters, just as the old Earth-centered cosmology of Ptolemy needed layer upon layer of epicycles.

Yet the big bang is not the only framework available for understanding the history of the universe. Plasma cosmology and the steady-state model both hypothesize an evolving universe without beginning or end. These and other alternative approaches can also explain the basic phenomena of the cosmos, including the abundances of light elements, the generation of large-scale structure, the cosmic background radiation, and how the redshift of far-away galaxies increases with distance. They have even predicted new phenomena that were subsequently observed, something the big bang has failed to do.

Supporters of the big bang theory may retort that these theories do not explain every cosmological observation. But that is scarcely surprising, as their development has been severely hampered by a complete lack of funding. Indeed, such questions and alternatives cannot even now be freely discussed and examined. An open exchange of ideas is lacking in most mainstream conferences. Whereas Richard Feynman could say that "science is the culture of doubt", in cosmology today doubt and dissent are not tolerated, and young scientists learn to remain silent if they have something negative to say about the standard big bang model. Those who doubt the big bang fear that saying so will cost them their funding.

Even observations are now interpreted through this biased filter, judged right or wrong depending on whether or not they support the big bang. So discordant data on red shifts, lithium and helium abundances, and galaxy distribution, among other topics, are ignored or ridiculed. This reflects a growing dogmatic mindset that is alien to the spirit of free scientific inquiry.

Today, virtually all financial and experimental resources in cosmology are devoted to big bang studies. Funding comes from only a few sources, and all the peer-review committees that control them are dominated by supporters of the big bang. As a result, the dominance of the big bang within the field has become self-sustaining, irrespective of the scientific validity of the theory.

Giving support only to projects within the big bang framework undermines a fundamental element of the scientific method -- the constant testing of theory against observation. Such a restriction makes unbiased discussion and research impossible. To redress this, we urge those agencies that fund work in cosmology to set aside a significant fraction of their funding for investigations into alternative theories and observational contradictions of the big bang. To avoid bias, the peer review committee that allocates such funds could be composed of astronomers and physicists from outside the field of cosmology.

Allocating funding to investigations into the big bang's validity, and its alternatives, would allow the scientific process to determine our most accurate model of the history of the universe.

OK. Now that you've observed the situation in cosmology, compare that to the situation in the studies of the origins of organisms and and MULTIPLY it by 1000 times and you see that the evolution as dogma is even a BIGGER problem in its field that prevents scientists from doing research into alternative theories and making them afraid to speak out than Big Bang as dogma is in the field of cosmology.
 
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