Resource required in City Vicinity

[aoklo]

A lot of buildings require certain resources in the cities working area before it can be built. Most of them make sense, but some of them have requirements are so strict that it is incredibly unlikely for it be to fulfilled unless you use a great farmer to create it.

Some examples:
Homing Pigeon Coop
Requires Stone and Poultry in city vicinity
Is there a reason why a Flock of poultry built by subdued ducks, turkey, etc dont count for the poultry requirement? Or better yet, why cant a subdued pigeon build this, it would make much more sense.
Falconer is similiar, requiring poultry and grapes (wut). It also must be built by a subdued hawk,eagle, or haast eagle. Its effect is rather minimal for how difficult it is to build.

Shaman invocation Hut (animal)
These huts require bison,cow,deer,sheep, or some other animals to be in city vicinity. Shouldnt a herd built by one of the subdued animals count for this? Many of these animals are fairly rare, and dont even reveal when you get shamanism. Most of the time you cant build any of the special buildings for Druidism and Shamanism. Even if you find a resource later, you can only build the invocation hut for the city nearby, and if you want it in other cities it must be placed by a great farmer, requiring a large amount of effort.

It would probably be too much to allow a single resource to enable these buildings in all your cities. But I dont think its unreasonable to allow herds of animals to satisfy the requirement. These animals must be subdued, and you cant multiply them (for some reason despite.... having animal husbandry + herds living in your city) to spread to your other cities. You must subdue more of the animals to get more herds (sometimes impossible if you dont have enough land left). Actually some buildings already do this.

A good example are the animal trainers like "Llama trainer, Horse Trainer, Elephant Trainer". Having the animal in the city vicinity enables you to build them, but having a Herd of said animal also allows it. Having the resource in your civ isnt enough to build it.
Yet, you cant build a Horse Farm with a herd of horses. Or a Oxen farm with a herd of cows. Its not very consistent and most of these buildings provide very minimal benefit, so it doesnt make sense.
Also, resources in the civipedia dont tell you what they can make. So while I have this great farmer and can put down many resources, it is actually hard to tell what each resource allows me to build in the city. If you dont know ahead of the time (like Rice or some other resources allows you to build Farmers Market, a amazing building) you can miss out on important buildings.

 

[Yudishtira]

I agree with you about the stone, poultry and grapes etc.

Just not about the Shaman Invocation Hut. These must be wild animals - although any wild animal should do imho. In (indigenous) Australia we have 'dreamings' (equivalent to vision quests in Native America) relating to just about every animal - from the kangaroo, emu and cassowary, through the koala and platypus, and down to the native bees and beetles. Even plant 'totems' perhaps should not be ruled out.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@aoklo

City Vicinity and Subdued Animal buildings are not directly compatible. This has been an issue since the beginning of C2C since I have focused on City Vicinity buildings and DH has focused on Subdued Animal buildings.

We have however made sort of a hybrid build such as the Elephant Trainer that can require a Elephant Farm (City Vicinity) OR Herd - Elephant (Subdued Animal) OR National Elephant Breeder (Resource).

As for why a Subdued Pigeon cannot build a Homing Pigeon Coop is because its based on the City Vicinity requirements. We do have 2 type for some such as a Falconer is City Vicinity while the Hawking Hut is Subdued Animal. Both do more or less the same thing, but are obtained 2 diffrent ways.

In addition some of the city vicinity buildings came before we had animal units. Such as the Homing Pigeon Coop has been in the game long before we had the Pigeon unit. And even before we had a Poultry resource. Before it just required Stone resource.

Note that the reason why vicinity buildings have A + B resource is so not every city can build that building. In the same way that the subdued animals only spawn in specific areas on the map. Not every city will get every type of building. Even with a Great Farmer's help.

@Yudishtira

Many of those are already represented in the "Myth" buildings (ex. Myth of the Crocodile).

 

[Yudishtira]

@Yudishtira

Many of those are already represented in the "Myth" buildings (ex. Myth of the Crocodile).

It's no big deal to me as I was just musing, but my relevant point was that vision quests - certainly in the Australian indigenous spirituality - would not require specific resources in the vicinity. In game terms, I would argue for the requirement (it was the Shaman Invocation Hut we were talking about) being any unimproved resource or wild animal. A dreaming of a beehive, a silkworm or an indigo grove is perfectly valid to shamanism in a generic sense, if not to some specific historical/cultural manifestations of it. A tribe would certainly not suspend shamanic practices due to a lack of accessible resources (although it does make the vision/quest generally more valued if some hardship was involved in attaining it).

An inherited dreaming like a pre-existing myth 'building' would not be suitable, I'm sure you would agree. It needs to be the shaman's own vision.

 

[aoklo]

@aoklo

City Vicinity and Subdued Animal buildings are not directly compatible. This has been an issue since the beginning of C2C since I have focused on City Vicinity buildings and DH has focused on Subdued Animal buildings.

We have however made sort of a hybrid build such as the Elephant Trainer that can require a Elephant Farm (City Vicinity) OR Herd - Elephant (Subdued Animal) OR National Elephant Breeder (Resource).

As for why a Subdued Pigeon cannot build a Homing Pigeon Coop is because its based on the City Vicinity requirements. We do have 2 type for some such as a Falconer is City Vicinity while the Hawking Hut is Subdued Animal. Both do more or less the same thing, but are obtained 2 diffrent ways.

In addition some of the city vicinity buildings came before we had animal units. Such as the Homing Pigeon Coop has been in the game long before we had the Pigeon unit. And even before we had a Poultry resource. Before it just required Stone resource.

Note that the reason why vicinity buildings have A + B resource is so not every city can build that building. In the same way that the subdued animals only spawn in specific areas on the map. Not every city will get every type of building. Even with a Great Farmer's help.

@Yudishtira

Many of those are already represented in the "Myth" buildings (ex. Myth of the Crocodile).

Ah I guess that comes with multiple developers. Im sure with a big mod like this its difficult to find the time to go over the old stuff for inconsistencies. As for the intention of not letting every city build something... it makes sense but I wish those specific buildings made a bigger impact.

In my current game, there is amber in my national borders. I built a mine over it, and now I have Amber. However, even though its in my border, its too far from any city, so I cant build a Amber mine. Without the amber mine, I dont have access to gems, which means no gemcutter, no jeweler.
This situation makes me sad, I have amber, but no gems!? Some of these things could really use looking over someday.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have been reworking some of the Subdued Animals to fix some of the problems you are encountering and I and Hydro are having discussions on how to fix some things. The amber problem you mention is one thing in particular I want to fix. Basically we need an improvement which can only be built on a resource outside and city boundaries that provides the same result as the vicinity building. My original idea on that would have the special improvement revert to the normal improvement as soon as the plot became inside a cities vicinity.

With the Shaman Invocation Hut - it can be built in any city with shamanism in it. The special altars need the resource. So if you have cow and deer in the vicinity then you can build both the Shaman Invocation Hut (Cow) and Shaman Invocation Hut (Deer) after you build Shaman Invocation Hut.