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Restart?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by adsin15, Apr 9, 2016.

  1. chuckh89

    chuckh89 Prince

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    The "Restart" option is only available on Turn one,...

    Go to "Main Menu",..."Restart Game" is the first selection.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    If my first ruin is Barbarian Camps, - Restart

    If 2 of my first 3 ruins are Surrounding Area,...Barbarian Camps - Restart

    A mining resource is also normally a must to settle ON,...that way you can trade for a lump sum 10 turns after meeting/declaring war on the first opponent,...


    My games ALL have predetermined goals.

    Therefore,...certain conditions are necessary to have the ability to set a sold benchmark that will be able to out duel other players best efforts. (and, of course they are all doing the same)



    -
     
  2. KingKong76

    KingKong76 Warlord

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    You can see it once in a while but I think you are right, mostly in jungle.
     
  3. KingKong76

    KingKong76 Warlord

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    Not saying its not annoying, but would you really scrap a really good land for this?
    Especialy since, you next 2 ruins (if you are lucky enough to get more) are very unlikelyto be empty one.

    Not a retorical question, I'm actualy really interested to read the answer.
     
  4. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    I doubt all players are doing the same. Most players understand maps are very different and the best times come from insanely goods starts. Rerolling for that reason only makes sense if you are playing a challenge series vs. other players, otherwise who cares?

    My personal opinion is I do what is most fun for me. If you never give yourself the chance to improve by learning to adapt to more challenging situations, you miss out on some of the challenge imho--the feeling of surviving a difficult situation is better then being ahead all game for me. You can do what you want but I'd recommend at least trying a bit more variety. You might be surprised at how fun it is to adapt your game to the situation rather then find a situation that matches the way you want to play. Religion is a fun way to do this making many kinds of terrain better.

    I also don't understand why you "require" to settle on a mining luxury. Sure it's decent for the extra early gold/production but hardly required. Personally I'm happy and consider it a nice start if I just get to settle on hill/river. I'll get plenty of gpt later when I sell my resources.

    Also, you can't trade AI for lump gold unless they friend you so I don't understand your second comment. Most AI don't friend 10 turns after you meet them and they certainly are less likely to friend after a war. Do you wait for them to friend you? If so you get a major penalty for attacking during a friendship and other people know you by the time you get friend requests unless you are isolated together. This sounds like a terrible strategy for any game with multiple neighbors. With my experience on emperor, immortal, and deity AI will gang up on humans that pull stunts like that (backstabbing friends, etc.) and have larger early militaries then you can support. Even if you fight them all off getting dogpiled early will set you back by requiring you to build a big military and probably remove any small advantage you got from settling on a mining lux. Far better to attack a neighbor early before you meet many others and steal their workers and pillage for some gold, don't wait for friendships and all that drama. If I misunderstood your comment please clarify, the developers only allowed lump gold between friends for this very reason, so players couldn't game the system with DOWs to get loads of free early gold.
     
  5. Volcanon

    Volcanon Warlord

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    A bad start on a high difficulty sucks. I had shoshone spawn in the arctic on deity with one lux and the same lux was the only one around for miles and miles except furs in the dead centre of even more tundra (and not even a river nearby). Gave up on that game because all of other other AI spawned in at least decent starts (or even... uh, grassland starts) and so I was too far behind to catch up to the runaway leaders.
     
  6. adsin15

    adsin15 Warlord

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    On your very first turn, if you click the Menu option like you are going to save a game, the very first option will say"Restart" now.
     
  7. x2Madda

    x2Madda Prince

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    When you get good enough (not insulting anyone here) then their are no bad starts anymore. They will change how you tackle your first 100 turns but they won't be the sole deciding factor on if you would win or lose, merely how fast you are going to win.
     
  8. adsin15

    adsin15 Warlord

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    You are probably right but at some point you are just punishing yourself by playing terrible startsf. Unless you are playing multiplayer against humans i dont see the value in practicing bad starts besides the admittedly important "Bragging rights" which we all despise and yet secretly covet.

    :king:

    There are people that delete their first settler every game and win with just 1 warrior.
     
  9. chuckh89

    chuckh89 Prince

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    I play Gauntlets, or just pick games off the HOF list that have more than a few submissions under the title.

    The answer is a honest YES,...I always restart....Usually starting dirt is not the deciding factor that supersedes early game play,...
    But, if it is a really good setup normally I wait to see if I receive a Faith ruin turn 20-30, if it combines well with the setup then I am still in,....
    For example: Sun God with multiple wheat resources definitely makes up for the earlier ruins.

    OR, if I pop a Technology (Archery), Barbarian Camps, Surrounding Area,... then I remain because I will rapidly produce a archer and have a good chance to upgrade to Composite Bow since the first 3 ruins were not a Upgrade Unit.

    When your competing against others, or looking to better your personal best on defined setups, then it is critical to get positive ruins early!

    Lets say you pop a culture ruin on turn 3, and go Tradition. That is 3 culture every turn, so by turn 20 I will have a extra 51 culture compared to a Barbarian Camp, Surrounding Area ruin combination.

    REALLY,...
    The most important thing is what you mentioned,...
    If I get more ruins than three then yes I am likely to get a "Positive" ruin upcoming,...
    BUT,..
    You are also increasing the possibility of 2 Barbarian Camps down the road (If you popped a total of 5 or 6). And, your getting another "Positive" ruin thrown into the mix on Turn 20 (Faith). So, better to start Positive....The Domino effect of early culture and population builds your starts even more than awesome dirt many times.

    The current rewards received from ruins is one of the things I dislike about BNW,...
    I personally would combine Barbarian Camps and Surrounding Area, would add the Heal option for wounded units, and also add a Promotion possibility once out of the Ancient Era. Science can be kept in the fold even after all Ancient Techs are discovered, it should become a % and increase as Eras progress.

    All Ruins should be adjusted according to Era, so if you find a island ruin that needed Astronomy to discover, it wouldn't be worth 20 Culture in the Renaissance Era (When your making well above that on that Turn alone).

    Vadalaz, Cromagnus, and Zenmaster, probably aren't rerolling many times. But, for the rest of us that are one step below Elite,...I would say it is "Common". Like I mentioned earlier ALL of my games have a predetermined strategy, and YES it is for competition. Even if I am competing against my previous time my goal is never to JUST beat the game,...instead it is HOW QUICKLY I can beat the game.

    I said nothing about being friends,...You can acquire lump sums in Peace Treaties

    Settle on resource you have Technology for(or will have soon), meet AI Civ on Turn 4ish (Immediate DOW), 240 Gold lump sum given (Or whatever they have acquired at that point) in return for resource on turn 14. DOW on that same Civ on turn 24 to get your resource back,...That's Civilization 101, my friend! ;)
    It's also why I put Isabella in many of the (Choose opponent) competitions. If she finds a Natural Wonder,...Easy Money!

    The Challenge is to win as quickly as possible,...I can Win every time I play on all levels.

    "Improve by learning" That is exactly what I am doing! I actually was a pretty terrible player prior to following the HOF,...Why? Because I thought I was good! It is not til you set your game up for equal parameters that you can judge this,...

    If you just hit random every time,...how do you know it was a good game? I am not even talking about the HOF, just challenging your own personal best.
    Playing the same setup multiple times reinforces which strategies are the correct ones for those settings.

    For me personally, it is the Challenge, Competition, and constant improvement that gives me enjoyment.
    "Cool,..another win" does not give the same satisfaction!
    Plus, it brings ALL skill levels, Leaders, Maps, Speeds into play,...I could argue that many only play on "Immortal" difficulty every time they play, or only play on "Standard" speed. How is that "Trying a bit more variety"?





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  10. KingKong76

    KingKong76 Warlord

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    Make sens in fact...
    I did underestimate the fact that you are not only trying to beat the AI but also beat other humans that will reroll a lot in order to post the best score/fastest win/whatever you are aimng for.

    It's easier to snowball pop or culture VS barbs.

    And I agree, I would definately combine barbs and map.
     
  11. Sharples

    Sharples Prince

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    I almost never re-roll or save-scum. Bad starts give a challenge for me and make me want to approach the game more differently.
     
  12. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    Thanks for clarifying about the gold I understand your strategy now, but I still don't think it will work on emperor and above. Your comment about it being "101" not withstanding. That is not my experience on Deity BNW. AI gives you nothing for peace unless you are really threatening them which you can't do with 1 warrior in the beginning when they start with 3 and often have another built by the time you show up. I regularly worker steal on Immortal and Deity and the peace is always white peace early which makes me believe you must be playing low difficulty. You are lucky to get the worker and one tile pillaged before you are chased off. You can raid the borders and maybe later steal another worker if you are patient but can't do serious damage early, especially not in the turn range T12-25 as you describe. They have several warriors patrolling their land and you have 1. Because of this, I really doubt they are offering you gold 10 turns after DOW. Many games I've successfully stolen a worker and pillaged a tile or two by turn 25 but even on these games AI never offers more then white peace. By definition white peace does not allow you to add a resource on your side to get gold on theirs. The game prevents any extra trading beyond the peace in my experience. Please describe your strategy in more detail if I am wrong, perhaps you know a detail I don't but first level of peace doesn't allow trading in my experience.

    Also, it's not just elite players who don't reroll. I rarely do it either, that's why I brought up the point. Not everyone plays your way. I won't say I never do because I may reroll something that is just terrible and would be a non-fun grind to recover from, but if it is workable at all I usually take it on a normal game.

    I have no problem with you playing your way, just keep in mind not everyone thinks like you. There are plenty of Deity players that think always playing the same kind of start or only playing a good start makes the game far too easy. I'm in this camp. I prefer challenge over a good time. I've played enough fast science games and they are pretty boring for me now. I'll still win as fast as I can but I'll enjoy my games a lot more if the way I got there was not the same as most of my previous games and if I got to try some new things.

    The AI are not that good of players already and there's really not a risk of losing or even having a hard time if you get a good start. Even on Deity. These games are pretty boring to me because the AI fall behind so fast. Personally I like my maps random because it adds more surprises. But I don't feel this limits me by not being able to compare my performance between games. Rather, it makes my playstyle more diverse because I experience more scenarios. This is what I like. The surprise and challenge factor, and I think many players are with me here. Along with my desire for making each game unique and interesting I also play slower game speeds and all map sizes in my games not just standard. It keeps things interesting for me.

    HOF players like you that replay the same essential scenario to shave off turns are in the minority from my experience so please don't talk like your way is the only way to play. I'm cool with you playing your way if you want, but don't say stuff like "all players do what I do" because I don't and I bet many other players don't either. I like viewing HOF times and games because it puts a nice upper bound on what is possible, but that's all it is. It's optimal playing on good maps. To speak like no one should play anything but that is silly. I get you like improving yourself on specific scenarios and competing with others--that's really great--but please don't denigrate the majority of players that don't care about time or HOF as much.

    You may wonder why I'm harping on accepting the diversity of the community. Here's why: I've met several players on this forum that criticize posted games that players are excited about and want to share with comments like "wow that time is pretty bad" or "best times are X below that, but nice try". It's condescending and not nice. It's also not applicable since these games didn't reroll for hours to find a nice start. They just played the game with an average one. And even if they did play non-optimally it shouldn't matter. Not everyone finds microing every aspect of play fun. I do a fair degree of micro in my games but prefer to play faster and relax a bit more. I did try optimal timing play before but didn't get the same joy out of it that you seem too. shaving 10 turns off finish time just doesn't seem worth it to slow down my game that much. But that's my opinion I know lots of players enjoy it.
     
  13. chuckh89

    chuckh89 Prince

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    Your points were well taken, totally respect your thoughts and playing ability,...I am going to try some of your suggestions.
     
  14. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    I like the option too -- but not usually for a weak start -- but because I am trying to getting engaging behavior from the AI. I very much appreciate that the game keeps settings between starts. I wish there was a way to save the starting options as some kind of configuration file.

    I did this a lot recently for submitting games for CDG trying to get an interesting map for weaker civs, namely Denmark and Byzantium.

    For Byzantium I rerolled if non-coastal (since I want to build the UU in the cap) and if the dirt was terrible for a pantheon.

    I don't think this is really correct. The game uses an algorithm, so your starting plot will not be terrible in an absolute sense. (I guess you could over populate the map, so the algorithm can’t do much. But for standard maps, your starting plot is always decent.)

    On the other hand, you might be ice locked or otherwise really disadvantaged. I submit that the “truly tragic starts” are not obvious on T0. Sometimes, once you reveal horses and iron, the poor start is quite good. Or there are a couple Natural Wonders within settling distance. These are features that are not revealed by your opening screen shot.

    I think the folks that routinely re-roll “poor” starts before exploring for ~20 turn are routinely throwing away good maps!
     
  15. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    Thanks man! :) And I think gauntlets and GOTM are fun too, it's just that I don't have the patience to play every game that way. I think it's cool that you do and I like reading advice from players that have really put the time in to optimize some strategies, but you guys must be a bit more meticulous then me to play that way all the time. ;)
     
  16. docbud

    docbud Emperor

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    I just quit a game and restarted on turn 120.

    I was playing as Babylon on Emperor level. Had a fantastic salt start.

    The problem was none of the AIs were expanding. Rome, France, Germany, and Korea were sitting there at one city.

    It got pretty boring and I said screw it.

    Fantastic start but what fun is it without a little war (or at least a skirmish)
     
  17. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

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    You can only really restart on single player, and I have only really completely finished ~20-30 total single player games in their entirety. This is because after not too long single player becomes incredibly tedious. It's a total bore stomping through rows of units, especially because there's no real tactical aspect to it; it's all grand strategy, which obviously I enjoy because I play Civ, but there is absolutely no micro strategy or tactical opportunity in single player war. It's all slamming hammers against the AI, and seeing if you have enough beakers and gold and hammers to outweigh their bonuses. In multi, there can be smaller goals; war is about gain, weighing loss and victory with potential. It's possible to lose a war as single player, or to fall behind because of war, but in multiplayer the issues are just more, and you can't restart at all.

    So my answer is, whenever I can restart-- IE, single player games-- I probably do most of the time because I get bored of SP games by the Industrial Era.
    In multiplayer the late game is something to look forward to, so I wouldn't restart even if I could. But Pyrrhic nonsense isn't fun for me, so I usually end up late "restarting" games in SP, meaning with new settings all around.
     
  18. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Inspired by this thread, I did some experimenting. If you load any “Autosave Initial 0000 BC 4000” file and then “Restart Game”, you will spawn a new map with the same settings. Unfortunately, you cannot then use the “Exit to Main Menu” option to see or adjust the settings. So it is not as good as a starting options configuration would be, but it can still be helpful for replaying older game settings (if one renames and saves an initial file).
     

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