Return of the Shadow: The War of the Ring

[Klyden]

I finally got this to download and play a few positions. Excellent scenario and certainly one of the best of the Middle Earth scenarios. I don't know if you have ever done the ME play by mail/email, but this seems to have some elements of that (which is great, don't get me wrong, especially with the use of the palantiers).

I played a long game with the elves and manged to wipe out Isengard and took out Dol Guldur. Unfortunately before Isengard went down, I got to watch the ring change hands several times among several combatants. Mordor forces finally got their hands on it from Rohan and I was powerless to stop them from taking it for a VP win.

I also played a Dwarf game and it was over within 30 turns as Mordor again won with a ring victory.

I have a Gondor game going at the moment and after managing to hold off assaults from both the Corsair and Mordor, I have managed to recapture Osgiliath. I lost Sam, but have Frodo and Gandolf in a fairly safe spot. It is not really safe to try to get past Isengard yet, so I don't know if I can get a vp win or not. I finally got two armies going with full cav in them, so I will soon be knocking on Minas Morgul's door. Rohan really helped me with a wave of attackers that distracted Mordor's forces enough for me to finally go from the defense to the offense concerning Osgiliath. Gondor really has issues with moral and perhaps a luxury item might not be a bad call for them.

I also plan on getting a game going as Mordor, but sort of stayed away as the despot government seems tough to deal with, but we shall see.

Overall, great job with this.

 

[Lord Malbeth]

I finally got this to download and play a few positions. Excellent scenario and certainly one of the best of the Middle Earth scenarios. I don't know if you have ever done the ME play by mail/email, but this seems to have some elements of that (which is great, don't get me wrong, especially with the use of the palantiers).

I played a long game with the elves and manged to wipe out Isengard and took out Dol Guldur. Unfortunately before Isengard went down, I got to watch the ring change hands several times among several combatants. Mordor forces finally got their hands on it from Rohan and I was powerless to stop them from taking it for a VP win.

I also played a Dwarf game and it was over within 30 turns as Mordor again won with a ring victory.

I have a Gondor game going at the moment and after managing to hold off assaults from both the Corsair and Mordor, I have managed to recapture Osgiliath. I lost Sam, but have Frodo and Gandolf in a fairly safe spot. It is not really safe to try to get past Isengard yet, so I don't know if I can get a vp win or not. I finally got two armies going with full cav in them, so I will soon be knocking on Minas Morgul's door. Rohan really helped me with a wave of attackers that distracted Mordor's forces enough for me to finally go from the defense to the offense concerning Osgiliath. Gondor really has issues with moral and perhaps a luxury item might not be a bad call for them.

I also plan on getting a game going as Mordor, but sort of stayed away as the despot government seems tough to deal with, but we shall see.

Overall, great job with this.

First, I'd like to say, I'm glad you enjoy it!

It's good to hear that the game is working well, and, if I have assume correctly, the game is fairly balance. Mordor is very dangerous and will destroy you. Just like in the books, Gondor was about ready to cave in if it hadn't been for the destruction of the One Ring. You have to carefully guard that sucker, or, as you found out, it will get taken...

Playing as the Elves and Dwarves is really rather hard, since you don't start out in a good position and you have your own internal problems/barbarians/border ruffians/etc. to deal with!

The luxury item in Gondor might not be such a bad idea. I made Stewardship, its government, pretty crappy so that as soom as the AI researchs Gondorian Monarchy, they'll switch. It's by far the best. The down-side to this is the human play get stuck with a stinky gov for half the game. Maybe in Gondor's .biq I should make Stewardship a little better?

Anyway, I hope to hear how the remainder of your games goes. Hope you win! Best of luck!

 

[Klyden]

And we have a winner! Gondor scores a VP win on turn 63. I was on the middle difficulty setting.

I got 4 armies in a short period of turns (6-7 turns) and after that, it was just a matter of getting 3 of them filled up with cav. The 4th got the 2-3-1 specialist unit as a big defender to screen the cav. It took some doing, but I manage to take Minas Morgul after a fairly tough fight and then took several cities inside Mordor. I decided to move Gandolf and Frodo down and was on my way. I did stumble across a Barrow Wight and was fortunate that I was able to smoke him before he got a shot at me. Gondor had harrasment from the south and along the coast, but I managed to fight them off.

Now as far as specific things I would suggest looking at, but then again some of those things might be intentional:

City improvements are very expensive. I found myself doing just about none of them in any of the various games I have played. (Elfs did battlefield medicine). The only ones I was doing was the Runestone that gave 2 culture (the entry is misleading on this one as it offers no additional defense according to the editor and appears to be tangled up with the civil defense improvement), walls, and the barracks to do vet units. With a short time frame, it is not good to spend 20-30 turns on an improvement, especially when they don't have any really earth shattering effects. The Battlefield medicine for most is a 20-25 turn endeavor and most of the positions just can't afford to tie up their production into something like that (that is a ton of military units).

As Mordor, I took Osgiliath on the first turn only to have it blow up on the Gondor turn (my guess is it didn't have any culture). Now when I played Gondor, they took it on the first turn and it stayed. Probably need to see what the difference is. Osgiliath needs to stay obviously.

For Gondor, a tweak on happiness is probably needed. Tough to manage their happiness for sure.

For the tech tree, The min is 15 turns and the max is 30. Most civs have issues trying to get it less than 30, let alone down to 15. The other thing is that without trading, there is no way to even get close to getting through the tech tree within the time frame of the scenario. Most of the "untradable" flavored techs, each position is stuck at max time. This might be hurt by the fact that the improvements that normally help with something like this are very expensive to build. In my game with Gondor, I had started on the third tech and had 13 turns left or something like that so it would have been turn 70 something before I could have implemented the new government type and I would not have had much time to enjoy it before the game ended. My guess is right now, it doesn't really come into play.

My hat is off to you tho as this scenario had me playing more Civ3 in the last couple of days than I have played in quite some time.

 

[Klyden]

Ok, I figured out why Osgiliath got smoked after I took it with Mordor, but why it stayed around when I was Gondor.

Basically, it was reduced to 1 pop (normal) and the square under the city generates 2 food. (Need 3 per population point). The land it was using was stepped on by a Gondor pikeman and so the city starved. Important tip if you want to keep Osgiliath as the Mordor player is to put their food supply in a secure spot where Gondor can't get to it until you get the area more secure.

 

[Lord Malbeth]

And we have a winner! Gondor scores a VP win on turn 63. I was on the middle difficulty setting.

Congrats! Good to hear that.

City improvements are very expensive. I found myself doing just about none of them in any of the various games I have played. (Elfs did battlefield medicine). The only ones I was doing was the Runestone that gave 2 culture (the entry is misleading on this one as it offers no additional defense according to the editor and appears to be tangled up with the civil defense improvement), walls, and the barracks to do vet units. With a short time frame, it is not good to spend 20-30 turns on an improvement, especially when they don't have any really earth shattering effects. The Battlefield medicine for most is a 20-25 turn endeavor and most of the positions just can't afford to tie up their production into something like that (that is a ton of military units).

I do realize that city improvements are a bit expensive, but just like during the War of the Ring, city improvements really weren't being built as they would've used too many resources. With some expections, (walls, barracks, runestones, etc.) most of the players production should be going towards units. Battlefield Medicine is intentionally expensive, as it is a powerful Small Wonder to have under your control.

As Mordor, I took Osgiliath on the first turn only to have it blow up on the Gondor turn (my guess is it didn't have any culture). Now when I played Gondor, they took it on the first turn and it stayed. Probably need to see what the difference is. Osgiliath needs to stay obviously.

As per your suggestions, I've fixed this.

For Gondor, a tweak on happiness is probably needed. Tough to manage their happiness for sure.

Patched this as well.

For the tech tree, The min is 15 turns and the max is 30. Most civs have issues trying to get it less than 30, let alone down to 15. The other thing is that without trading, there is no way to even get close to getting through the tech tree within the time frame of the scenario. Most of the "untradable" flavored techs, each position is stuck at max time. This might be hurt by the fact that the improvements that normally help with something like this are very expensive to build.

I've knocked down the minimum to 5 turns, and the max to 15. Hopefully that'll cut down on the research time now.

My hat is off to you tho as this scenario had me playing more Civ3 in the last couple of days than I have played in quite some time.

I'm very glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for all the suggestions. I will, without a doubt, add to the new version that which you have suggestion. Thanks!

 

[Klyden]

And another winner as the Riders. Turn 94 VP, which is tricky since Rohan doesn't have control over the Fellowship. Basically, I got lucky when Sam came wandering next to my capital headed for Mordor all by himself. I surrounded him with a pile of pikemen to keep him from moving and held him there for at least 40 turns where I could protect him.

Gondor went down fairly early so it was just me against the Mordor and Corsair hoards from the south. I blew the road in the mountain to protect my back door so I could concentrate on fighting only two fronts instead of three. I got a army unit finally, built the wonder to allow me to build another, built that and then attacked Isengard and knocked them out. (The Elves had been knocking them around already). I then moved my forces towards Osgilith and held at the edge of my territory while I built up. I made a thrust and captured Osgilith and got another army out of it. I then took out Minas Morgul and captured 3 more cities inside Mordor over the next couple of turns. I then knocked Mordor out of the game.

While sending the armies down south to get some revenge on the Hardawath position, I released Sam and eventually he wandered over to Mt Doom and that was a winner. I did knock Hardawath position out and was fixing to lay into the Corsairs when the game ended.

I can certainly say the wild card is the One Ring and keeping control of it is absoulutely critical and also makes it very hard for say the Dwarfs to effectively play the game because the AI will do something stupid with the Fellowship, resulting in the ring being captured by the bad guys and losing the game. It might be that a biq is needed for each position on the Fellowship side or they likely face defeat unless they are very lucky.

 

[Lord Malbeth]

And another winner as the Riders. Turn 94 VP, which is tricky since Rohan doesn't have control over the Fellowship.

Any chance of some screenies? I think this page needs more previews.

I can certainly say the wild card is the One Ring and keeping control of it is absoulutely critical and also makes it very hard for say the Dwarfs to effectively play the game because the AI will do something stupid with the Fellowship, resulting in the ring being captured by the bad guys and losing the game. It might be that a biq is needed for each position on the Fellowship side or they likely face defeat unless they are very lucky.

I'm divided on this issue. On one hand, if I give the Ring to the Elves and the Dwarfs, then it becomes possible for them to win the game. On the other, if I don't it is more realistic to the books. The problem, as you put it is that it's very hard (Maybe impossible ) to win as the Dwarves. The Elves aren't too hard to win as, you just have to follow the ringbearer around till someone snuffs him.

I think Rohan is perfect the way it is. Since they're the 'middle-man' you can follow the ring until either A) it's captured and you can get it or B) you surrond it like you did. This fits with the books, since Rohan survived mainly by luck.

 

[Arc Terrat]

Hi, Lord Malbeth, I registered specifically to congratulate you on a fantastic mod. As both a Civ and LotR fanatic, it's just about the perfect game. I've got about two games under my belt now, one as Arnor, one as Gondor, and I've got a couple ideas and suggestions if you're willing to listen.

First, settlers. Playing as Arnor I'd love to be able to rebuild Annuminas, Fornost, et al. Perhaps make it so only ruins can be rebuilt, that way you don't need to make up new city names for civs? Then we can rebuild lost cities and such, if a civ falls, or if they're sacked and razed. I don't know if that is technically possible, but I'd love to see a resurrected Arnor.

One thing you've really captured is the feel of Middle Earth, I definitely feel as if I'm in the books. Maybe instead of cutting down tech research times, just give most of the techs to them and make the Gondorian Monarchy what they research, and let it take a while, something they work on almost like a technological version of the wonders. Or just let them research the path that leads to it in each individual case, or something.

I did have a bit of a problem with the mass regicide feature though. In my first game as Arnor, Gondor died within about 5 turns, assumably because every one of their leaders died. With no way to rebuild their civilization, it left a huge gap in power between the sides. It also makes it impossible to capture Isengard and Umbar, and other important cities that were once part of Gondor. Is there a way to turn this feature off, let us keep the kings but lose the regicide? Or I suppose if we have settlers we can replace them (but then we'd lose their wonders).

Another thing I was thinking a lot about is the unit strengths, I came up with some ideas on how to further make them cool, at least on the human side (as that's all I've played at this juncture). The Rangers, frankly, are bad ass, I love them, and I was thinking that to balance things out between Arnor and Gondor, you could make it so that Arnor can't build the Royal cavalry (until unification maybe?), but the Rangers could have two moves, or stealth attack or treat all terrain like road or something in addition to their stealth ability. Especially since the Shirriffs seem to be stronger than they are, according to the 'pedia, at least...

Similarly, I was kind of disappointed with the Tower Guards. Here we have these guys who are supposed to be major bad asses, the elite, but they're really not that strong, particularly compared with the Rangers. What about making them 3-4, as a counterpart to the Rangers? Or giving them extra hitpoints, as more pure blooded Numenorians? Same with Gondorian Royal Cavalry, while they're less powerful than the Rohirrim, as Numenorians, maybe give them an extra hit point. Maybe even do that with the Rangers.

I agree with the earlier poster about happiness conditions in Gondor. Was it by design that you basically couldn't grow in size, since you'd continually be in riots? I found it very limiting, that and the food requirements and government not allowing irrigation bonuses, it seemed. Since Aragorn returns Gondor and Arnor to glory, perhaps these are remedied by the Gondorian Monarchy government? Despite winning, I still haven't reached that level of tech to try it. It really is kind of hard to reach.

One thing I really like that isn't really by the book is that destroying the one ring doesn't destroy Sauron, so Mordor keeps playing. If I've got a good game going, I like to keep playing, and losing Mordor as a foil to the victorious Gondor would make it too easy. Maybe if regicide is disabled, it could destroy Barad-Dur but not the other citadels and cities of the Orcs? Guess that depends on the Regicide part as well.

Again, congratulations on a fantastic mod, I've got to go play some more and get my fix. Sorry if this post seemed negative, it really wasn't meant to be. Those were just a couple things I thought of while playing obsessively last night. Which should be a good sign, right?

Cheers, and thanks!

 

[Lord Malbeth]

Hi, Lord Malbeth, I registered specifically to congratulate you on a fantastic mod. As both a Civ and LotR fanatic, it's just about the perfect game. I've got about two games under my belt now, one as Arnor, one as Gondor, and I've got a couple ideas and suggestions if you're willing to listen.

Welcome! I feel very honored indeed that you choose to register specifically for this mod. Thank you very, very much. And yes, I'd love to listen to suggestiosn.

First, settlers. Playing as Arnor I'd love to be able to rebuild Annuminas, Fornost, et al. Perhaps make it so only ruins can be rebuilt, that way you don't need to make up new city names for civs? Then we can rebuild lost cities and such, if a civ falls, or if they're sacked and razed. I don't know if that is technically possible, but I'd love to see a resurrected Arnor.

I actually like this idea, quite a bit. I think what I might do is make settlers available to Gondor and Arnor (And only them) via the "Gondorian Monarchy" tech. This way, when which ever side researches the tech, they can rebuild and see the glory of Numenor full-filled. I will change this.

One thing you've really captured is the feel of Middle Earth, I definitely feel as if I'm in the books. Maybe instead of cutting down tech research times, just give most of the techs to them and make the Gondorian Monarchy what they research, and let it take a while, something they work on almost like a technological version of the wonders. Or just let them research the path that leads to it in each individual case, or something.

That actually might be an easier alternative. I'll look into that.

I did have a bit of a problem with the mass regicide feature though. In my first game as Arnor, Gondor died within about 5 turns, assumably because every one of their leaders died. With no way to rebuild their civilization, it left a huge gap in power between the sides. It also makes it impossible to capture Isengard and Umbar, and other important cities that were once part of Gondor. Is there a way to turn this feature off, let us keep the kings but lose the regicide? Or I suppose if we have settlers we can replace them (but then we'd lose their wonders).

That, unfortunately, will happen sometimes. I think in the patch I will make Faramir a king for Gondor, thus giving them more, and hopefully, that will lower the chance they are eliminated.

Another thing I was thinking a lot about is the unit strengths, I came up with some ideas on how to further make them cool, at least on the human side (as that's all I've played at this juncture). The Rangers, frankly, are bad ass, I love them, and I was thinking that to balance things out between Arnor and Gondor, you could make it so that Arnor can't build the Royal cavalry (until unification maybe?), but the Rangers could have two moves, or stealth attack or treat all terrain like road or something in addition to their stealth ability.

Similarly, I was kind of disappointed with the Tower Guards. Here we have these guys who are supposed to be major bad asses, the elite, but they're really not that strong, particularly compared with the Rangers. What about making them 3-4, as a counterpart to the Rangers? Or giving them extra hitpoints, as more pure blooded Numenorians? Same with Gondorian Royal Cavalry, while they're less powerful than the Rohirrim, as Numenorians, maybe give them an extra hit point. Maybe even do that with the Rangers.

Good points, and good ideas. I will change these.

I agree with the earlier poster about happiness conditions in Gondor. Was it by design that you basically couldn't grow in size, since you'd continually be in riots? I found it very limiting, that and the food requirements and government not allowing irrigation bonuses, it seemed. Since Aragorn returns Gondor and Arnor to glory, perhaps these are remedied by the Gondorian Monarchy government? Despite winning, I still haven't reached that level of tech to try it. It really is kind of hard to reach.

Stewardship, frankly, is an awful government. At his time in Middle-Earth, the realm of Gondor was falling apart and corrupt. When Gondor switches to Gondorian Monarchy, they will see a drastic change. It is by far, the best gov in the game. They just have to wait and see. I think I will add some more luxuries, though, to balance it a little better.

One thing I really like that isn't really by the book is that destroying the one ring doesn't destroy Sauron, so Mordor keeps playing. If I've got a good game going, I like to keep playing, and losing Mordor as a foil to the victorious Gondor would make it too easy. Maybe if regicide is disabled, it could destroy Barad-Dur but not the other citadels and cities of the Orcs? Guess that depends on the Regicide part as well.

I see where you're going with this, but I'd like to stick to the Quest to Destroy the Ring. That's the main point of the game. If you would really like to keep playing, you just need to hit that button at the end that says, 'Let me play just a couple more turns'.

Again, congratulations on a fantastic mod, I've got to go play some more and get my fix. Sorry if this post seemed negative, it really wasn't meant to be. Those were just a couple things I thought of while playing obsessively last night. Which should be a good sign, right?

I very glad you enjoyed it. I will definitely go back through the .biq's and fix errors, and add fixes here and there. Thanks for all the info and feedback! I really appreciate it! Keep playing!

 

[Arc Terrat]

So I finally got to the Gondorian Monarchy, (played a game on easy just to get there and see what it did). It certainly makes it so you can grow more and run a better civ, but it took me almost the entire game just to reach it, had something like 8 turns left by the time I got it. Also, it says on the pedia that when you get it you become king of the re-united kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor. It would be supremely awesome if Gondor and Arnor actually combined, or could at least use each others units (both get rangers and guards and cavalry, etc.) and cities and such, upon adoption by either. Dunno if that's technologically feasilbe or not.

Definitely looking forward to your patch, particularly for those settlers and units, sounds like it will be sweet.

As for some strange glitches or bugs, I don't know if this happened for anyone else, but the colonies I've seen in the game have the Civilization trademark information on them, in addition to the standard civ name and resource info. Also, it says the Gondorian Monarchy causes tiles producing more than two of commerce, food or shields to produce one less, which definitely hasn't been the case.

I was thinking, and I agree with you when you said that by this stage of the development of these civs, the cities really did have most of their improvements, and should focus on units or maybe wonders. So why not just make it so cities like Dol Amroth and Pelargir actually have improvements in them? Giving Gondor actual cities, developed and populated, at least in the populous falas and ports, would help it with tech, the war, and unhappiness. And let's face it, they'd been there for a thousand years, they'd have taverns and such, right? Might kill two birds with one stone there.

You might also want to try giving each civ more than one King unit, just so that they're a bit harder to kill off. Giving Saruman a "Sharky" character in Dunland, or near the Shire, for instance, so that if Isengard falls, it can be captured and Saruman can still be pesky, or giving the Corsairs an extra one in case Umbar falls, etc.

I very much like the quest to destroy the ring part, actually. I was saying that I really liked how that doesn't destroy Mordor, so you CAN keep playing and have a good time beating up on orcs and such, because destroying the ring doesn't destroy Sauron. Makes it more fun!

I played the Elves, liked their units. You'd think as the Elves though, they'd basically have reached all their units and advancements, why would they need to research tech, they're leaving anyway, right? It might be better to just let them have their cool techs and units, but make them longer to build. After all, elves reproduced and grew to maturity slower than humans, right, which is why they had a harder time bouncing back after each war with Morgoth and then Sauron. So let them have their bad ass guys, but make them pretty expensive, so that they have far fewer of them in the long haul.

I also played as Mordor. My big thing is that the Orcs seem kind of weak, particularly compared with everyone else. The Nazgul and the Witch King are cool, but the Orcs of Mordor were supposed to be pretty tough, if not as tough as the Uruk Hai. Now yeah, after three techs of research you can get the Olog, orc, who rock, but I was wondering if it would be possible to switch the Orc and Goblin stats. Make the ones in the wild the weaker ones, and the ones under Mordor's thumb the stronger ones, which is probably how Sauron would do it. Thought it was like that in the books too, orcs were usually larger than goblins there. Plus, that would make it more balanced if the strength of Gondor's units goes up. And let's start with a few more Nazgul, muahahahahaha, maybe in random places on the map as if they're hunting for the Ring.

Question: I found the Istari, now how do I get them to join me? Sending a unit to them just seems to kill them.

Cheers again, still loving it!

 

[Arc Terrat]

So I noticed you've got maps of Beleriand and Arda and the Second Age. Any chance we'll see an adaptation of this one for the War of the Shadow with Elendil, et al? Same map, tweaked units and kings, full on Arnor and Gondor and Eriador and Moria dwarves versus uber-Mordor and the Easterlings and Southrons? Could be a fantastic war scenario, without the worries about a ring bearer, so only one biq needed, I'd think, and lots of multiplayer potential...

Same for Arda and Beleriand, elves vs Morgoth, Numenor vs all, etc. That'd be loads of fun!

 

[Lord Malbeth]

Ah, that I do. Yes, I do have some plans for a Silmarillion scenario, a Numenor vs. Middle Earth scenario, and a War of the Last Alliance scenario. As of right now, they're on back-burner, but I'd love to get them made, regardless.

 

[Lord Malbeth]

As for some strange glitches or bugs, I don't know if this happened for anyone else, but the colonies I've seen in the game have the Civilization trademark information on them, in addition to the standard civ name and resource info. Also, it says the Gondorian Monarchy causes tiles producing more than two of commerce, food or shields to produce one less, which definitely hasn't been the case.

Whoops! I'll fix these...

I was thinking, and I agree with you when you said that by this stage of the development of these civs, the cities really did have most of their improvements, and should focus on units or maybe wonders. So why not just make it so cities like Dol Amroth and Pelargir actually have improvements in them? Giving Gondor actual cities, developed and populated, at least in the populous falas and ports, would help it with tech, the war, and unhappiness. And let's face it, they'd been there for a thousand years, they'd have taverns and such, right? Might kill two birds with one stone there.

Can't believe I hadn't thought of that... HaHa, thanks. Will do.

You might also want to try giving each civ more than one King unit, just so that they're a bit harder to kill off. Giving Saruman a "Sharky" character in Dunland, or near the Shire, for instance, so that if Isengard falls, it can be captured and Saruman can still be pesky, or giving the Corsairs an extra one in case Umbar falls, etc.

I think I'm gonna give a few more king units.

I played the Elves, liked their units. You'd think as the Elves though, they'd basically have reached all their units and advancements, why would they need to research tech, they're leaving anyway, right? It might be better to just let them have their cool techs and units, but make them longer to build. After all, elves reproduced and grew to maturity slower than humans, right, which is why they had a harder time bouncing back after each war with Morgoth and then Sauron. So let them have their bad ass guys, but make them pretty expensive, so that they have far fewer of them in the long haul.

All good ideas. I think that'll help out with some other issues I've ran into too.

I also played as Mordor. My big thing is that the Orcs seem kind of weak, particularly compared with everyone else. The Nazgul and the Witch King are cool, but the Orcs of Mordor were supposed to be pretty tough, if not as tough as the Uruk Hai. Now yeah, after three techs of research you can get the Olog, orc, who rock, but I was wondering if it would be possible to switch the Orc and Goblin stats. Make the ones in the wild the weaker ones, and the ones under Mordor's thumb the stronger ones, which is probably how Sauron would do it. Thought it was like that in the books too, orcs were usually larger than goblins there. Plus, that would make it more balanced if the strength of Gondor's units goes up. And let's start with a few more Nazgul, muahahahahaha, maybe in random places on the map as if they're hunting for the Ring.

I think what I'll do to fix this is to make the orc A: 3 D: 1 and then remove some of the Nazgul units and place a lot more orcs. That should help things out a bit.

Question: I found the Istari, now how do I get them to join me? Sending a unit to them just seems to kill them.

There we have a bug. I made the unit require a tech that human players don't get, thus, they are destroyed every time they're captured. In the patch, this will be fixed and you can capture them.

Alright, I'll get to work. Thanks.

 

[Arc Terrat]

Tried Isengard, built the Military academy, but still couldn't build armies. And when I tried the Dwarves, I lost my first turn. When I started, my units had moved, leaving my cities open to attack from dragons. Is that intentional?

Also, I was thinking, shouldn't Aragorn have more experience and hit points, to start? He'd spent the last 80 years tracking, fighting and leading soldiers after all. Maybe some more cool abilities too. He should be the biggest bad ass out there aside from Gandalf and the Witch King.

And maybe some kind of Dunedain unit...

 

[Klyden]

You have to have a minimum number of cities per army standard or you can't build them. For this scenario, that is 1 army per two cities so you must have had one already with Isengard (or lost the other starting city they have). This hinders a lot of positions early, except Mordor and Gondor. This is especially true with the civilization collapse that takes place. You want to grab a few cities before knocking a position out just so you can get more armies.

I agree on more leaders for a couple of positions. You may consider making a Gondor leader or two immoble and putting them in Dol Amroth and/or Linhir. Makes it really rough when Mordor captures two cities and doesn't have to worry about Gondor at all anymore.

 

[HectorOfTroy]

First of all, congratulations on your work, it is a wonderful scenario, and it captures nicely the atmosphere of the book. By all means, please try to build a scenario for Silmarillion too. Note: I mention that I played the version that I downloaded friday, 17.07.2009.

Secondly, in what concerns some issues that have been raised in this thread:
- In the matter of scientific research, I have played 4 games this week-end: a game as Arnor, one as Elves, one as Gondor and one as Isengard - all of them finished in 30 turns or less. So I am begining to wonder if there is any point of doing any research at all, especially because the units or the governements are quite far. That's why, I think the price of the advances should be reduced, and/or the strong benefits should be more at the base of the research tree.
- Related to research too, in the case of Gondor and of Elves, the type of governement was already that which I should have received if I researched an advance (i.e. for Gondor I had the stewardship although I had not researched the advance). This is not very coherent...
- I too think that having another king unit for Gondor, and maybe positioned at start in a city far from capital, would benefit the balance (in my Isengard game, on Orc difficulty, Gondor got wiped out in about 7 turns).
- In addition, in my Gondor game something rather funny happened: Rohan remained without horses and, as I had a suplementary horse resource, I sold it to them; if I remember well, in the book Rohan was the master of the horse, so maybe preconecting the second horse resource they have would be a solution? or positiong the roaded resource in a more protected place?
- There are also some issues for which I do not agree with what seems to be the general opinion in this thread, but I must mention that this is based on my assumption that Dwarf is a rather difficult level (please also see my question on difficulty levels in the next paragraph)... In the matter of Gondor, all its problems are compensated by the fact that it already has a science advance that only Elves have, so selling it got me 1000+ gold. Using this gold, I bought improvements, namely for Minas Tirith (with the walls and the runes a veteran garison made the Witch-king retreat with one health point - maybe I got lucky too, but the defensive power is really big) and rushed units in all other cities. This, plus a 2-3 turn sell of the world map to all allies (the reckon power is very useful to see inside Mordor), enabled me to rush a lot of units, conquer Minas Morgul and send Frodo with the ring safelly accompanied by 2 armies, and all in only 26 turns, on the Dwarf difficulty level. So I think that Gondor has enough resources (the big number of cities is very important), it does not need further power, or if you decide to make some upgrades to it, maybe give to more of the allies the research advances Gondor has. Also, during this game, the Hardawath I thin, the guys that are south of Mordor, send in a total of 3 units, and I doubt they had somebody else to fight...Maybe they would need some strentghing?.

Thirdly, some new issues :
- I have tried to pass some marshes and had troubles - from the way it happened, I think you modelled it with some very strong and invisible units. However, I had luck and used a trebuchet (any zero-attack unit would have the same effect I think), which received the message that civilian units could not attack. Thus, I was able to find my way in the marshes fairly easy - I do not know if you are aware of this or your intention was that the marshes were even more dangerous.
- A question about difficulty levels: the Orc level is the hardest for the human side and easiest for orc side? I ask this because in my Isengard game I played on orc difficulty, and Gondor was decimated in about 7 turns, as I already mentioned, so I deduce that Mordor was really strong. Also, in the game interface, the Orc level is indicated as the hardest.
- In my Elves game, I (think I) had silk, but I could not make spiders.
- I had a look at Mordor (my next game?) and saw that their capital city is not on a river, is there an improvement to build in order to pass the population of 6 or this is a deliberate limitation?
- Related to the reckoning missions, do (should) they show the invisible units too? I am thinking also this could help Elves (and maybe dwarfs and Rohan - I do not know if they have a reckoning ability) to better protect the ringbearer, thus making them more interesting to play (maybe even more interesting than if having control over the fellowship).

In what concerns reporting on my other 3 games, the one with Arnor was my first one, and wandered a little with the fellowship until realising I was far off the trail, in which moment I abandoned. It gave a nice feeling of being lost in the woods and trying to find a way to go to the destination (unfortunately, the knowledge long forgotten that enlighted Gandalf to find a solution at the moment of passing the mountains had remained in a dark corner of my memory). The second game, with the Elves , was really relaxing, but ended in 20+ turns, with the capturing of the ring, which really made me think I should be more careful in protecting the ringbearer in the future games...In the forth game, with Isengard, I had the luck (notice I was the bad guy) to catch Frodo, but was stupid enough not to realise that Sam could be around and instead spend my time looking (in the palantir) after Gandalf, so the ring was returned to Mount Doom in about 15 turns.

Ok, finally, I just want to appologize for not always using the right names , I like LotR but do not have a good memory of the names... Also, I expect eagerly the patch/new version of the scenario.

 

[Lord Malbeth]

And when I tried the Dwarves, I lost my first turn. When I started, my units had moved, leaving my cities open to attack from dragons. Is that intentional?

Well... You shouldn't have lost. Yes, they're supposed to attack some of your cities, this is to represent the Dragon Raids of the north.

Secondly, in what concerns some issues that have been raised in this thread:
- In the matter of scientific research, I have played 4 games this week-end: a game as Arnor, one as Elves, one as Gondor and one as Isengard - all of them finished in 30 turns or less. So I am begining to wonder if there is any point of doing any research at all, especially because the units or the governements are quite far. That's why, I think the price of the advances should be reduced, and/or the strong benefits should be more at the base of the research tree.
- Related to research too, in the case of Gondor and of Elves, the type of governement was already that which I should have received if I researched an advance (i.e. for Gondor I had the stewardship although I had not researched the advance). This is not very coherent...

This will be fixed in the update. Gondor will have more techs, and the improvements effects on defense will be lowered.

- I too think that having another king unit for Gondor, and maybe positioned at start in a city far from capital, would benefit the balance (in my Isengard game, on Orc difficulty, Gondor got wiped out in about 7 turns).

This too will be fixed in the new patch.

- In addition, in my Gondor game something rather funny happened: Rohan remained without horses and, as I had a suplementary horse resource, I sold it to them; if I remember well, in the book Rohan was the master of the horse, so maybe preconecting the second horse resource they have would be a solution? or positiong the roaded resource in a more protected place?

Whoops. That was obviously a mistake on my part. I shall fix that. Kind of the antithesis of the books, ain't it?

Also, during this game, the Hardawath I thin, the guys that are south of Mordor, send in a total of 3 units, and I doubt they had somebody else to fight...Maybe they would need some strentghing?.

That's acually a good idea. THey aren't real big players. The corsairs on the other hand can be MEAN!

- I have tried to pass some marshes and had troubles - from the way it happened, I think you modelled it with some very strong and invisible units. However, I had luck and used a trebuchet (any zero-attack unit would have the same effect I think), which received the message that civilian units could not attack. Thus, I was able to find my way in the marshes fairly easy - I do not know if you are aware of this or your intention was that the marshes were even more dangerous.

Those invisible units are supposed to represent the Dead Men of the Swamps north of Mordor. It's OK if you can get around them, they're just supposed to be sort of a temporary pain in the butt.

- A question about difficulty levels: the Orc level is the hardest for the human side and easiest for orc side? I ask this because in my Isengard game I played on orc difficulty, and Gondor was decimated in about 7 turns, as I already mentioned, so I deduce that Mordor was really strong. Also, in the game interface, the Orc level is indicated as the hardest.

I just renamed the difficulty levels to correspond to the Civ ones, such that Orc = Chieftain, Illuvatar = Sid.

- In my Elves game, I (think I) had silk, but I could not make spiders.

Those are only availible to Mordor.

- I had a look at Mordor (my next game?) and saw that their capital city is not on a river, is there an improvement to build in order to pass the population of 6 or this is a deliberate limitation?

This is deliberate for several reasons. 1. I don't want Barad-Dur to get too big, and 2. During the WoTR, Barad-Dur wasn't by a river.

- Related to the reckoning missions, do (should) they show the invisible units too? I am thinking also this could help Elves (and maybe dwarfs and Rohan - I do not know if they have a reckoning ability) to better protect the ringbearer, thus making them more interesting to play (maybe even more interesting than if having control over the fellowship).

Sadly, Reckon missions, do not show invisible units, which is good, because if they did, Sauron would just have to find Frodo once and the game would be over.

Ok, finally, I just want to appologize for not always using the right names , I like LotR but do not have a good memory of the names... Also, I expect eagerly the patch/new version of the scenario.

Not to worry. I knew what you meant every time. Hope you enjoyed it. I will get the new patch out ASAP!

 

[Arc Terrat]

Haha, by lost, I meant that I started at the end of my turn instead of the beginning, so the turn was lost, not the game. Thanks, I got it now.

Klyden, thanks for that. I haven't played Civ3 much lately, forgot about the city to army ratio, that explains it.

For the Gondor leaders, making Faramir and Imrahil would do it, I expect. So long as they have a few. Or just allowing regicide to be turned off would also solve that problem as well.

 

[Lord Malbeth]

For the Gondor leaders, making Faramir and Imrahil would do it, I expect. So long as they have a few. Or just allowing regicide to be turned off would also solve that problem as well.

I'm planning on making them kings. I'm debating whether or not to turn Regicide off. One one hand, if I kill Sauron while playing regicide, Mordor is destroyed as it should be. On the other, Mordor can kill Gondor in just a few turns. I'll think about it.

 

[Arc Terrat]

Faramir and Imrahil should rightly be king units, if king units remain in the game, as they are leaders of Gondor. Also, thinking aloud, the king units should be pretty tough, and given the scenario, they shouldn't be locked down in one location. They were heroes and warriors, not just guys who sat in towers. Even Denethor was a fighter in his youth. So it doesn't really solve the problem to force Imrahil's king to be bound to Dol Amroth, you know? Let them fight, let them risk their lives, and let them win eternal glory on the field of battle!

Also, why doesn't Boromir get any love? Sure he was flawed, but he was still bad ass!

I've been playing more and more as Gondor, and I love them, but the weakness of the Guards is eating me up. Seems like every civ's swordsman unit is twice as strong at least, from the Olog Hai to the Ironbreakers to the Elvish Swordmasters, etc. Even the Shirriffs are stronger! What about upgrades for both the Rangers and the Guards upon the restoration of the monarchy (in addition to making them a bit cooler to start)? More hit points and higher attack/defense values, special abilities like can build roads and forts, etc. Would be sweet....

Won a game at middle level difficulty with Gondor the other night, was much closer at first, but basically only Mordor was fighting me. Harad and the Easterlings weren't doing much, though the Corsairs were typically annoying. Anyway to jack up the heat from them and make a real fight of it in the middling difficulty levels? I didn't feel much of a difference from easy to middle.

As for Sauron, the thing is, he shouldn't really be killable, should he? He's Barad-Dur itself, after all. Now, maybe what you could do is make it so that Sauron/Barad Dur is destroyed when the Ring is destroyed. And if Regicide is turned off, that leaves the rest of Mordor still fighting, but their most powerful city and leader unit gone.

Seriously though man, I can't stress enough how much I'm loving this scenario. Can't wait for ones with Angmar, or the last Alliance or the Second Age, etc. Hopefully with the ground work laid and maps built, they won't take as long... Of course, what do I know, I just play these things...