Reward chances from ruins?

[thelazerorange]

Hi everyone, so i'm trying to get desert folklore on a hot arid map before any of the bots snatch it up, i'm playing as morocco and like to have ALL the things on deserts. (then they can be desserts )
so anyway, i've been trying to get a faith ruin/find out WTH is going with them and i was wondering if anyone has actually looked at the code (mysterious computer gobble-dee-guk) and can tell me what the actual odds are for finding not just faith but anything in ruins.

also i heard that you can't get faith before turn 20? is that true? and if so is it one of the things that changes with game speed?

 

[joncnunn]

Yup, no religion ruins are ever found before turn 20. I think that's hard coded across all speeds.

As long as you build a Shrine as your first building, there is no real risk of the AI picking Desert Folklore before you do (first AI to a pantheon almost always picks Goddess of Protection among other pantheons the AI prefers.)

 

[LordBalkoth]

As long as you build a Shrine as your first building, there is no real risk of the AI picking Desert Folklore before you do (first AI to a pantheon almost always picks Goddess of Protection among other pantheons the AI prefers.)

This is definitely not true on higher difficulties. Sometimes you'll see RELIGIONS being founded before you can get a pantheon.

 

[joncnunn]

As long as you build a Shrine as your first building, there is no real risk of the AI picking Desert Folklore before you do (first AI to a pantheon almost always picks Goddess of Protection among other pantheons the AI prefers.)

This is definitely not true on higher difficulties. Sometimes you'll see RELIGIONS being founded before you can get a pantheon.

Note that I included the human building the Shrine in the capital ASAP in the above statement (Pottery as first tech, with Shrine built before Granary)

And a major religion doesn't take away a pantheon choice with the exception of Byzantine choosing a second pantheon.

 

[LordBalkoth]

Note that I included the human building the Shrine in the capital ASAP in the above statement (Pottery as first tech, with Shrine built before Granary)

Yes, I know, that doesn't change my statement. The AI *starts* with Pottery and gets 2 faith from Shrines (3 if they go Piety) from what I understand.

 

[Redaxe]

I think with this you should try and get 2 scouts out by the time you finish pottery and hope you find s religious citystattes.

Than you can also wait near ruins until turn 20, often useful if you can block AI scouts from entering a peninsula.

 

[chuckh89]

There was some discussion about ruins a while back,...this probably clarifies most questions.

I still have a hard time believing it (In my head) because "Barbarian Camps" always seem to come up more often, and the biggest reason for rerolls on HoF competitions.

Prior results do affect your future ruin opportunities, in the sense that your two prior ruin outcomes are not available for your third ruin.

At levels above settler, there are 9 possible ruin yields:

<Type>GOODY_POPULATION</Type>
<Type>GOODY_CULTURE</Type>
<Type>GOODY_REVEAL_NEARBY_BARBS</Type>
<Type>GOODY_GOLD</Type>
<Type>GOODY_MAP</Type>
<Type>GOODY_TECH</Type>
<Type>GOODY_UPGRADE_UNIT</Type>
<Type>GOODY_PANTHEON_FAITH</Type>
<Type>GOODY_PROPHET_FAITH</Type>

However, the last two are mutually exclusive and conditional -- the pantheon faith ruin only appears when you don't have a pantheon but can get one, and the prophet faith ruin only appears after you have a pantheon and until you enhance your religion -- so there are really only 8 possibilities on any given ruin. And only 7 possibilities before turn 20, since the faith ruins aren't enabled until then, and after you enhance your religion.

So that leaves a maximum 6 possible ruin outcomes after you have found 2 ruins (5 possibilities if the faith ruins are not available), since your two prior ruin outcomes are excluded from the pool available for the next. Also, once you get an upgrade ruin for a particular unit, the upgrade ruin is no longer available for that unit.

So, if you find 6 or 8 ruins in a game, can you get 3 barb notifications and no upgrade ruins? Certainly. Ever roll a six-sided dice 8 times and get three 2's and no 6's?

The only additional thing that could be added is that the "Science" option disappears once all Techs are completed in the Ancient Era.

 

[beetle]

Thanks chuckh89 for digging that post by Browd out.

I still have a hard time believing it (In my head) because "Barbarian Camps" always seem to come up more often

Part of it is confirmation bias, but it is also just the math. Mentally, I lump maps and barbs camps together as one disappointment. Gold is always kind of blah, and the culture is only helpful if it is early. The free tech is nice, but it is not an option after a while either. So suppose your scout already upgraded and your last two hits were mediocre gold and culture. It could easily be that the only options now are:
<Type>GOODY_POPULATION</Type>
<Type>GOODY_REVEAL_NEARBY_BARBS</Type>
<Type>GOODY_MAP</Type>

Adding gold and culture into the list above only makes the only really good result (GOODY_POPULATION) even less likely! So I think the lesson is not to pop ruins with units that have already upgraded! Hope for a meaningful outcome is already against the odds!

That said, I have to brag about my recent lucky timing with Shoshone where I picked up GOODY_PANTHEON_FAITH and GOODY_PROPHET_FAITH just a couple of turns later. Prior to that, I did not realize those were two different results!

 

[chuckh89]

That said, I have to brag about my recent lucky timing with Shoshone where I picked up GOODY_PANTHEON_FAITH and GOODY_PROPHET_FAITH just a couple of turns later.

Prior to that, I did not realize those were two different results!

Yes, that is a pleasant surprise and the best way (IMHO) to understand ruins is to play as Shoshone....

I really wish that the next Civ game would give Pocatelo a different UA, and incorporate the Shoshone method of acquiring "Goodies" for all Civilizations.

Gold is always kind of blah, and the culture is only helpful if it is early.

The other update should be upgrading Ruins by Era,....How ridiculous is it to get to that island on the farthest outreaches of the map, and get "50 gold" or "20 culture", when you are making 10 to 20 times that amount on that turn alone,...

ALSO,
Science should stay in the mix! But, make it a %....Similar to spreading religion with Missionaries/Prophets with the "Interfaith Dialogue" belief.

 

[beetle]

the best way (IMHO) to understand ruins is to play as Shoshone....

I think that is true. I was always able to avoid the two maps results, even when I found two ruins late game. It took a while, but I got an un-upgraded pathfinder there. I had to a meaningless result for one of the ruins.

I really wish that the next Civ game would give Pocatelo a different UA, and incorporate the Shoshone method of acquiring "Goodies" for all Civilizations.

Eh, then one would never pick the maps. I think they need one more strong result so that Shoshone is always guaranteed to have a choice that is actually good. Or it should be that culture and gold scale with era. They could also combine the map effects to make that result less disappointing.

 

[chuckh89]

Eh, then one would never pick the maps. .

Yeah, probably...

What does that tell you,...???

They need to upgrade those options to make them more inviting,...Maybe "Surrounding Area" also reveals the Hidden Resources in that "Area", and you still can't work them until you get the Tech, but it is great knowledge for planning future cities and Tech pursuit.

Maybe you get Triple Gold (And 3x Culture, if you have the Honor opener) from that "Barbarian Camp" revealed, or get additional influence to CS quests associated with that Barb Camp.

Something,....To be honest! It is my least favorite part of the game! (Not the ruins,...The "Barb Camp & Surrounding Area" option,

OR, maybe they should just Combine both of them....Probably the best option...??!

 

[beetle]

Well, didn't III and IV have the chance of actually bad results from goody huts? It is telling that the best I hope for from a map reveal is another ruin!. Why not just give me that ruin result in the first place?