RFC Classical World

[srpt]

Are the lombards the last civ without UP/UHVs/UB ect. ?

they have UHVs but not UU, UB or UP

 

[Tigranes]

sprt, are you sure that 430 AD Vandals should flip cities in Spain? It is largely accepted that by that time the entire nation has migrated to Africa, later Vandal kingdom is always shown without Spanish cities at all, wit the exception of Balearic Islands.

 

[srpt]

it puts them in conflict with the Visigoths and represents the fact that they came from Spain. the date is not super-important.

 

[Tigranes]

I see, it just looked to be copy-paste of Carthage core. What do you think about idea of capturing-converting any ship that gets too close to Vandal ports? In my game I had a Barbarian Galley threatening Carthage -- but I am a Barbarian myself! Could be pretty cool to see your navy increased by captured ships rather than building them...

Duke could be a UU for Lombards. The urbanisation of Lombard Italy was characterised by the città ad isole (or "city as islands"). Thus Dukes can be some Melee unit with city bonus strength (both in defending and capturing cities). UP could also reflect the urbanization fact -- double speed of growing cottages, for example.

As for UB the following quote about Lombard architecture sounds interesting:

In this period, the construction of monasteries received a particular impulse, not only a places of adoration or as shows of faith of the commissioners, but also as shelters for the latter's assets and persons and as sites of political control. King Desiderius (756-774), and with him numerous dukes, gave a particular boost to this trend, which had no direct comparison in Europe at the time.

Lombard monastery -- adds extra stability, and perhaps reduces maintenance based on amounth of faith points.

 

[soul-breathing]

still no internet at home.

update coming tomorrow with the following features:

Gokturk starting stack split between Karabalasagun and Almaliq, with some extra units

new Pyramids effect: +1 happy in all cities in Egypt

new Colossus effect: +1 trade routes in all island cities

new Han UP: -20% research for techs unknown in the world

new conqueror mechanism is in, but I haven't seen the AI build any yet

tightened some goals for Carthage and the Roman Republic

increased early barbs in Europe

Ostrogoth spawn moved to 475AD

I'm afraid something is missed here in the latest regular download, Han's UP is still cheaper settlers, granaries and aqueducts, but not -20% research for techs unknown in the world.

Also in Scenerio 80BC Han still not controlled Panyu, and the capital is still Luoyang, that should be Chang'an.

Han Empire in 80BC, map from geacron.com

Spoiler :

 

[Tigranes]

We really need some Suggestions and requests thread Just like all the respected RFC forums!

sprt, could you please look into Settler promotions idea.

In could be cool to have different cities founded by different Settlers. Some cities started as Roman forts, some as Trade posts, some as religious refuge camps, etc. What a wonderful depiction of reality and added fun to gameplay!

 

[Crossphazer]

(I'm back!)

The wonder updates make for some interesting, localised benefits that help out in some troublesome areas (like island cities).

Lombard UB, UU, and UP.....

Let us start with wikipedia's say:

The freemen of the Lombard kingdom were far more numerous than in Frank lands, especially in the 8th century, when they are almost invisible in surviving documentary evidence. Smallholders, owner-cultivators, and rentiers are the most numerous types of person in surviving diplomata for the Lombard kingdom. They may have owned more than half of the land in Lombard Italy. The freemen were exercitales and viri devoti, that is, soldiers and "devoted men" (a military term like "retainers"); they formed the levy of the Lombard army, and they were sometimes, if infrequently, called to serve, though this seems not to have been their preference. The small landed class, however, lacked the political influence necessary with the king (and the dukes) to control the politics and legislation of the kingdom. The aristocracy was more thoroughly powerful politically if not economically in Italy than in contemporary Gaul and Spain.

Since the Lombards are threatened on all sides by powerful players (the Byzantines and the Franks, notably), the UU could be "viri devoti", some kind of cheap heavy spearman, who would be the Lombards levy much like the spearman for most other civs.

UP-wise, we can say that the increased prosperity and mobility of the non-noble classes would lead to an extra trade route.

UB-wise,

many Lombard nobles are referred to in contemporary documents as iudices (judges) even when their offices had important military and legislative functions as well.

I'd say a market with a +2 + 2 (I'm trying to tie some kind of judicial function, which I see as a combination of culture and science, with a more noble function, but there aren't really that many 'noble buildings').

We could perhaps brainstorm additional buildings, so that we don't have as many darn UBs that are always of the same buildings... (monument, anyone?) I'm sure there's a plethora of antique and early medieval elements of daily life that we are missing in terms of infrastructure.

Also, in 550 AD start, shouldn't he Byzantine city be Neapolis rather than Pompeii? Also, Constantinople is called Byzantium :O

BUG:
National Epic Lombard UHV does not fire correctly.

 

[DC123456789]

I would personally advise replacing the Pompeii city name with Neapolis entirely. Larger, more important, and didn't get destroyed a third of the way through the timeline.

 

[Crossphazer]

Completely agree with DC.

Also, "Kaisareia" doesn't make sense for the Greeks, since it's based on Caesar... I'd put "Kaisareia" in the Byzantine city name map, but I'd make the Greek one "Stratonospyrgos", the previous, Greek, name.


BUG:

Shwedagon Paya wonders built in Egyptian cities, probably instead of Obelisk.

 

[srpt]

there will be a new version on wednesday (promise) with the following changes:

Celts UB, UP

Pompeii replaced by Neapolis

some unique stuff for the Lombards

fixed city name map

some civics changes

edit: I recently been trying having cottages produce no food as an alternative to the non-adjacent restriction. this seems to have the desired effect of forcing the AI to balance them with farms, which is the point of the restriction. how does everyone feel about this?

edit2: I will also try to get to the plague-cottages change suggested by Jusos

 

[merijn_v1]

I will upload it to the svn if you want.

 

[Jusos2108]

edit: I recently been trying having cottages produce no food as an alternative to the non-adjacent restriction. this seems to have the desired effect of forcing the AI to balance them with farms, which is the point of the restriction. how does everyone feel about this?

Sounds horrid, unless you change farms to give four food from start and five with plow and add one food to all food resources. Actually, I am not sure would even that help; why would anyone bother with cottages, if they take away two food from the tile?

 

[Sitalkas]

I agree, it would be disastrous for all civs except the Chinese and the India ones, where there are a lot of grassland tiles

 

[Jusos2108]

Also what's wrong with AIs current behaviour? To me the AI seems to balance farms and cottages pretty well everywhere; even in Mesopotamia and Egypt, where floodplains make their distribution more difficult.

 

[Swarbs]

edit: I recently been trying having cottages produce no food as an alternative to the non-adjacent restriction. this seems to have the desired effect of forcing the AI to balance them with farms, which is the point of the restriction. how does everyone feel about this?

Like Jusos says, I think this would only work if you add food to farms (perhaps +1 food for farms next to fresh water), and also increase the bonus from cottages. How about just making it -1 food for cottages, same as towns, and adding one commerce from hamlet level up instead? So on grassland it would be:

Cottage: 1f, 1g
Hamlet: 1f, 1h, 2g
Village: 1f, 2h, 3g
Town: 1f, 3h, 4g

That should keep some balance, with each irrigated farm only able to support two cottages on grassland. Would also make floodplains more valuable to farm, as they are by water by default.

 

[Tigranes]

AI already cannot build cottages at every plot, why any further restrictions? I would leave food alone even for Town. It takes so long to grow Town, one needs a reward.

 

[srpt]

I have found in many games in the past the AI putting cottages on every available tile that didn't have a resource. that's honestly what started all this. I also found myself, every time I had to choose what improvements to build(when there were no cottage restrictions), thinking: the city will still keep growing with a cottage and I will get coins and I'm chasing the happiness ceiling anyway so fast growth is wasted. being able to spam cottages and keep growing didn't seem right to me. I wanted there to be more of a tradeoff.

also, I was suggesting the food nerf instead of the adjancency restriction, not with it.

and also, the AI's current behavior is under the adjacency restriction.

I'm happy to try any idea. right now I am at work with no compiler so I can't remove the adjacency restriction so for now I will give them back there food and post the new version. next version I'm happy to try whatever you guys think is best, including going back to the vanilla setup to see what the AI does, and how the map balances.

here is the changelog for 0.1.1

Spoiler :

Bugfixes:
found the bug causing the human Mauryan player to become the Sungas when collapsing to their core
found a solution to the "city ruins" bug so the Byzantines and Guptas (and others) can now spawn properly in pre-existing cities
fixed an error in the Conts.py building list causing various wrong effects

Civics:

Caste System:
Great People penalty lowered to -25%

Religious Freedom:
+10% science in all cities

Dynastic Cult:
Capital gold bonus increased to +30%


Civs:
Antigonids:
Peltast withdrawal chance increased to 30%
Rome:
"make Rome the biggest city" UHV goal moved to 50AD

Celts:
culture UHV goal moved to BY 75bc
new UP: Great Generals can create minor Great Works of 1000 culture
Dun now gives no promotions but allows 1 artist

Japan:
added Calendar, Military Drill, Marksmanship, Siege Engines and Monarchy to the starting techs
Kingdoms of Wu and Shu added as "neighbours" giving the UP tech bonus and Japan must be in contact with the civ in question to get the bonus
the Haniwa now only requires Iron Working and Militarty Drill

Dacia:
Dava now replaces walls, 50% defense and 2xp for melee units

Byzantines:
UU changed to a Feodorati, cheaper Swordsman, available early and starts with Discipline (bonus vs barbs)

Wonders:
Trajan's Column now makes the owner immune to stability checks from losing cities to barbarians and is pre-built in Rome in the 220AD scenario but obsoletes with the Stirrup

Misc:
added indepentdent cities of Kourion/Curium, on Cyprus, and Qiaohsi, on the peninsula east of Qufu
changed Cottage degradation during plague to 1 level per hit
all Cottage type improvements are -1 food

in performance issue news, the next version will have significantly less leaderhead art, thanks to embryodead, so it should run a bit faster and those with older or slower systems may have fewer problems.

and I'm also liking everything I'm reading about Leoreth's new stability mechanisms so I'm sure some of them will be adopted here.

 

[DC123456789]

I don't see what's wrong with the cottages right now. They work fine, and aren't spammed everywhere. There is no need to nerf cottages or change them in any way.

 

[Jusos2108]

I really don't see the point to nerf cottages. The growth in this mod is already really slow and now you lose 1 food by building cottage in order to gain 1 commerce. It is really not worth building anymore. You would have to work the tile for ages it to gain 1 hammer and 1 more commerce and meanwhile lose one food and one barb that you can't repel can ruin it all for you. It seems that it is not worth the benefit & risk to build cottages anymore.

I am sticking with the previous version.

 

[Tigranes]

^^ I strongly agree about no nerf to cottages. It is my favorite improvement, because it is smart and realistic. It is tremendous investment. Graphically it very realistically represents suburbs around a big population center. Adjacency restriction was not a very bad idea after all, it did force AI to switch between Farms and Cottages. Let's leave things as is. Realistically only Town needs to loose a food. Villages and Hamlets are there for agriculture and commerce, while Towns become a place for artisans and production.