Goodfella
Showing results for
Why is it that every civ has one star production, trade, etc.? Was this done intentionally?
RFC Classical World
- Thread starter srpt
- Start date
CrossRFC
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2008
- Messages
- 1,248
Edit: Nevermind, I triggered both on the same turn, so I was wrong.
Maybe add a sheep above Ancyra for its food supply?
Further edit: Also, despite having code of laws, I can't seem to form defensive pacts. Is there something I'm missing?
new changes:
Kalingas UHVs are coded
3rd Pontic goal changed to friendly relations with 3 civs
added Timber resource, adds hammers and doubles production speed of ships, requires camp improvement
added Tea resource, revealed with Crop Rotation, +1 happiness
added resources in Cappadocia and changed a peak to a hill. it supports 1 decent city
added some improvements to the map in 320BC to allow some civs to get up and running faster, mostly Antigonids and Mauryans
Kalingas UHVs are coded
3rd Pontic goal changed to friendly relations with 3 civs
added Timber resource, adds hammers and doubles production speed of ships, requires camp improvement
added Tea resource, revealed with Crop Rotation, +1 happiness
added resources in Cappadocia and changed a peak to a hill. it supports 1 decent city
added some improvements to the map in 320BC to allow some civs to get up and running faster, mostly Antigonids and Mauryans
CrossRFC
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2008
- Messages
- 1,248
I intend to test the new balance in the near east soon, will play through Pontus and the Successors and give my impressions.
Playthrough 1: Antigonids
Loving the new Antigonid starting situation. Military nerf, city buff really puts the emphasis on choice.
The early game presents many interesting choices, such as:
-Do I send my military to retake the Greek and Macedonian homeland, or to defend against Seleukos and Ptolemy? (It is impossible to manage both in the early game, whereas previously doing both was the norm.)
-Do I risk losing my only protection against the Egyptian fleet by sending the galley off, or do I use it defensively? (The addition of fishing boats from the start in Syria add value to the galley you start with.)
-Which of the two successors do I take the most action against? (Egypt is now a bigger threat, but still realistically so.)
-Should I prepare for Roman and Pontic interference, or send all my assets against my Successor rivals?
Other comments:
Pella and Ancyra now on par with most other cities in terms of value, which in both cases seems historically fair.
Egyptian army bug where it wanders it the desert seems to be improved.
Seleucid army bug where the huge stack stays around Babylon has not been solved however.
Do religious shrines count as world wonders?
Pontus AI is really struggling. It is unable to produce many units, can't capture Trapezous, won't settle Cappadocia, etc. The AI might need a Mithridatic event or the like. Pontus should start becoming a serious problem around 180 to 150 BC, forcing any player in Anatolia to keep an eye on them while expanding Eastwards.
Rome vs Carthage rivalry needs to be much more intense. Rome's focus should be Carthage above all Near Eastern conquests. Defensive pact signing relations requirement should be lowered for Carthage, encouraging it to form alliances with one of the Successors or the Gauls (the Carthaginians managed both).
There are some shenanigans going on in Armenia, where its capital gets either captured or razed by independents or barbs. I can understand how the Georgian region gets hit hard, but the Armenian heartland going dark while its other cities are fine seems strange.
In this version and the last few versions, the Parthians have been having a hard time on both fronts.
Edit: Whoa! Rome just spawned 5 stacks in different cities around my empire at declaration of war! That's odd.
Playthrough 1: Antigonids
Loving the new Antigonid starting situation. Military nerf, city buff really puts the emphasis on choice.
The early game presents many interesting choices, such as:
-Do I send my military to retake the Greek and Macedonian homeland, or to defend against Seleukos and Ptolemy? (It is impossible to manage both in the early game, whereas previously doing both was the norm.)
-Do I risk losing my only protection against the Egyptian fleet by sending the galley off, or do I use it defensively? (The addition of fishing boats from the start in Syria add value to the galley you start with.)
-Which of the two successors do I take the most action against? (Egypt is now a bigger threat, but still realistically so.)
-Should I prepare for Roman and Pontic interference, or send all my assets against my Successor rivals?
Other comments:
Pella and Ancyra now on par with most other cities in terms of value, which in both cases seems historically fair.
Egyptian army bug where it wanders it the desert seems to be improved.
Seleucid army bug where the huge stack stays around Babylon has not been solved however.
Do religious shrines count as world wonders?
Pontus AI is really struggling. It is unable to produce many units, can't capture Trapezous, won't settle Cappadocia, etc. The AI might need a Mithridatic event or the like. Pontus should start becoming a serious problem around 180 to 150 BC, forcing any player in Anatolia to keep an eye on them while expanding Eastwards.
Rome vs Carthage rivalry needs to be much more intense. Rome's focus should be Carthage above all Near Eastern conquests. Defensive pact signing relations requirement should be lowered for Carthage, encouraging it to form alliances with one of the Successors or the Gauls (the Carthaginians managed both).
There are some shenanigans going on in Armenia, where its capital gets either captured or razed by independents or barbs. I can understand how the Georgian region gets hit hard, but the Armenian heartland going dark while its other cities are fine seems strange.
In this version and the last few versions, the Parthians have been having a hard time on both fronts.
Edit: Whoa! Rome just spawned 5 stacks in different cities around my empire at declaration of war! That's odd.
iOnlySignIn
Prince$s
Nov 14th, non-SVN version.
This repeatedly during auto-play (Parthia, 320BC):
This repeatedly during auto-play (Parthia, 320BC):
I'm doing likewise, although mainly for fun!
I also like the Antigonid military nerf - I ended up using my initial HS and Peltast to capture Byzantium to get iron, and whilst that was hooking up I made most of my conquests with mercs. Ended up with four Heavy Spearmen all with CRIII able to crush everything, with their cost funded by conquering cities, whilst normal HS followed to occupy the cities they took, which I thought was nicely historical.
I didn't find that to be an issue - Egypt attacked me with its galley straight away, lost, and then didn't build another one! Tho' my mercs killed them pretty early on - Egypt didn't really have any defence after I killed its Galatians and took Jerusalem - maybe a metal resource in Egypt to help them out here? Seleucid also didn't build many Hoplites after the initial one or two, so again maybe something needs to be done here.
My strategy ended up being capture Byzantium, raze Damascus and Aleppo (those are useless cities imo - no unique resources that can't be worked by Antioch, Tyre and Seleucia), peace with Seleucids, kill Egypt, ship troops to Greece to get Athens and Pella (just in time for GS to build Statue of Zeus), kill Seleucids. All worked out pretty easy in the end, thanks to my uber mercs, and they were both dead by around 200 BC.
Maybe the AI successors need some buffs, as I think the AI will struggle to cope with the new starting situation - AI Antigonids will be very easy to kill with only one HS and Peltast in Antioch.
Getting Monarchy was also fairly easy - I just beelined it from the start and maxed out tech as much as possible. My tech rate went as low as 30% at some points, but generally hovered around 50%. Not sure how much competition I faced - by 100BC most civs still wanted to trade it from me.
Had a weird UHV bug around 100BC - had killed both Seleucids and Ptolemy, and so got a GA when I researched Monarchy. But then in 96BC It said I had failed the UHV to kill or vassalise the successors. Not sure what caused that!
Pella yes, still doubt I'll ever build Ancrya as it only has six tiles which can't be worked by other cities, and none of the resources are super valuable. I think when I need Cappadocia I'll just push culture in Sinope, Ephesus, Antioch and Byzantium to get the region through culture cover.
Hadn't seen that before, but did see an Egyptian javelinman fly through Jerusalem on its way to explore Arabia right before I conquered it. I only had just enough attackers to capture, so that was a crucial mistake by the AI helping me win.
Didn't see this - in my game the Seleucids sent an elephant, hoplite and three spears against Antioch, then when I attacked they had two elephants, two archers and catapult in Seleucia. Babylon just had a couple of archers.
No. Neither do national wonders. In my game Ishtar Gate was destroyed when I captured Babylon (bug?), so I had to take Athens, Diospolis and Babylon, and then build the GLib, GLight and Colossus to get the 3rd UHV. Did it in around 70BC, slave rushing the Library and Colossus around the same time so it was quite a comfortable victory in the end.
Agree - By the end of my game Pontus still hadn't expanded at all, even with independent Trapezous. Kept thinking they were going to DW on me, but it never came.
Also agree - Rome and Carthage should never peacefully coexist once Rome is established. In my game Rome actually sent legions to conquer independent Cyrene whilst still at peace with Carthage!
Also saw this - Artaxsht disappeared early in my game, and Armenia was left with Davrezh in Media as its capital, not ideal as the city was squeezed by Seleucia and Ecbatana. They founded Derbent on the hill, but it was captured by barbs and Armenia then collapsed. I think AI Armenia needs a buff against the Steppe barbs.
EDIT: Also, saw a weird graphical bug where Dacian units were represented by red dots. It basically looked like the map had acne...
thanks for all the feedback
I think the Armenians problem is that I put Artashat in as an indy city before they spawn. they should be spawning on top of it, destroying it and re-founding it.
perhaps Anatolia should be just 2 provinces then, with Cappadocia and Pontus merged
I will work on Pontus' settler and war maps and try to make them more aggressive
I can also make the Roman AI automatically go for WARPLAN_TOTAL when they declare on Carthage
I have been seeing many mercs with crazy promotions so I'm going to limit that
Damascus has incense that can't be worked by another city and I will move the olives to an exclusively-Aleppo spot.
I think the Armenians problem is that I put Artashat in as an indy city before they spawn. they should be spawning on top of it, destroying it and re-founding it.
perhaps Anatolia should be just 2 provinces then, with Cappadocia and Pontus merged
I will work on Pontus' settler and war maps and try to make them more aggressive
I can also make the Roman AI automatically go for WARPLAN_TOTAL when they declare on Carthage
I have been seeing many mercs with crazy promotions so I'm going to limit that
Damascus has incense that can't be worked by another city and I will move the olives to an exclusively-Aleppo spot.
CrossRFC
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2008
- Messages
- 1,248
I have always found Aleppo and Damascus to be useful (not bad production, and good buffer), but moving those olives would probably further incentivise keeping them.
As for Anatolia, there are two ways of looking at it:
2 provinces: one centered around the Mediterrean coastline (Asia+ southern Cappadocia) and another around the Black Sea (Pontus+ nothern Cappadocia).
In this division, we can clearly see which provinces should be required for which UHVs of certain civs i.e. Asia but not Pontus as the "control the Mediterrean" UHV for Rome, or again, Asia but not Pontus for the Seleucids (Pontus was never a great focus for Alexander's empire). This also clearly delimits areas of different strategic value: Mediterrean vs Pontus Euxinus.
3 provinces: as is.
Cappadocia can serve as a buffer region that incurs less stability cost for civs (like the Antigonids or Pontus) when lost, as the Ancyra region is likely to change hands very often. The thin Pontic strip is thus harder to access, with mountains and Cappadocia shielding it. This is good for Pontus. Cappadocia, as mainly an inland region, can be the delimitation of non-Mediterrean Near Eastern civs' stability area.
Either way, Ancyra should continue to be a viable city, as it is now, thanks to some improvements, as it shields both Asia and Pontus from the Levant and gives some life to central Anatolia.
As for Anatolia, there are two ways of looking at it:
2 provinces: one centered around the Mediterrean coastline (Asia+ southern Cappadocia) and another around the Black Sea (Pontus+ nothern Cappadocia).
In this division, we can clearly see which provinces should be required for which UHVs of certain civs i.e. Asia but not Pontus as the "control the Mediterrean" UHV for Rome, or again, Asia but not Pontus for the Seleucids (Pontus was never a great focus for Alexander's empire). This also clearly delimits areas of different strategic value: Mediterrean vs Pontus Euxinus.
3 provinces: as is.
Cappadocia can serve as a buffer region that incurs less stability cost for civs (like the Antigonids or Pontus) when lost, as the Ancyra region is likely to change hands very often. The thin Pontic strip is thus harder to access, with mountains and Cappadocia shielding it. This is good for Pontus. Cappadocia, as mainly an inland region, can be the delimitation of non-Mediterrean Near Eastern civs' stability area.
Either way, Ancyra should continue to be a viable city, as it is now, thanks to some improvements, as it shields both Asia and Pontus from the Levant and gives some life to central Anatolia.
I moved the dates on the Euphrates instead of moving the olives. they were in a weird spot, 2 tiles from both Babylon and Aleppo but not workable by either.
a 2-way split of Anatolia gives the player more flexibility so I may go with that.
Pontus not attacking an indy city in its core is weird but maybe a Crimean conqueror event if they get a Great General would be appropriate. they are set to treat Pontus, Cappadocia, Asia and Crimea as core provinces for AI war (not flipping or stability) purposes.
I think it would be cool for one of the successors to respawn as Macedonia if one of them dies and if Thrace and Greece are indy. the Seleucids currently respawn as the Sakas so I guess it would be the Antigonids.
a 2-way split of Anatolia gives the player more flexibility so I may go with that.
Pontus not attacking an indy city in its core is weird but maybe a Crimean conqueror event if they get a Great General would be appropriate. they are set to treat Pontus, Cappadocia, Asia and Crimea as core provinces for AI war (not flipping or stability) purposes.
I think it would be cool for one of the successors to respawn as Macedonia if one of them dies and if Thrace and Greece are indy. the Seleucids currently respawn as the Sakas so I guess it would be the Antigonids.
One solution to the Cappadocia issue could be to move Ephesus one tile west, thus closing off that little inlet that it sits in. That would give Ancrya a wider strip of unique land, and you could possibly move a food resource from Ephesus into Ancrya's BFC? That would mean a bit of crowding between Athens and Ephesus, but would increase the space in central Anatolia.
Alternatively, you could replace Cappdocia with Cilicia, which would include Antioch. That way the province can be controlled from Antioch and Syria doesn't have four cities in it.
IIRC Damascus gets sheep and incense, but both of those are available in Jerusalem, and neither Damascus or Aleppo have enough unique food tiles to make it worth slowing the growth of Seleucia and Antioch. Maybe add some olives NW of Aleppo to make it even more valuable? IIRC olives are one of the main foods farmed near there at the moment.
Tho' the tendency to abandon the cities may just be down to me - I like to keep my economy lean and mean by ditching any cities that aren't vital, and you can control Syria with the more valuable Tyre and Antioch. I'd always be tempted to ditch them due to the fact that the majority of their terrain is desert and semi desert, so I might never be happy no matter how many resources you add!
Alternatively, you could replace Cappdocia with Cilicia, which would include Antioch. That way the province can be controlled from Antioch and Syria doesn't have four cities in it.
IIRC Damascus gets sheep and incense, but both of those are available in Jerusalem, and neither Damascus or Aleppo have enough unique food tiles to make it worth slowing the growth of Seleucia and Antioch. Maybe add some olives NW of Aleppo to make it even more valuable? IIRC olives are one of the main foods farmed near there at the moment.
Tho' the tendency to abandon the cities may just be down to me - I like to keep my economy lean and mean by ditching any cities that aren't vital, and you can control Syria with the more valuable Tyre and Antioch. I'd always be tempted to ditch them due to the fact that the majority of their terrain is desert and semi desert, so I might never be happy no matter how many resources you add!
As the Selucids I got decent use out of Aleppo and Damascus, Aleppo for instance was strategically helpful for me since it was attacked by both Egypt and the Jews. I was able to use it as a base to beat them back and take Jereuslum.
I like to control historical stuff so I never abandon cities if I can help it, even to my detriment. I tried to hold onto to Bactria for instance even though it was a terrible waste of resources.
I like to control historical stuff so I never abandon cities if I can help it, even to my detriment. I tried to hold onto to Bactria for instance even though it was a terrible waste of resources.
CrossRFC
Emperor
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2008
- Messages
- 1,248
You are exactly right! Antigonos' son Demetrius conquered some of Greece and Macedonia after retreating to Ephesus after Antigonos' disastrous defeat in 301 BC. Although it could indeed be a respawn upon their collapse, it would be even more fitting if they somehow worked naturally towards that goal after, in all probability, historically losing the Levant. Technically the Antigonid reign was never ended, it just shifted West.
On the topic of Rome, I have thought of an "event" to counterbalance what some may think is "unfair"/"cheating"/"arbitrary" in the Roman stacks, no matter how Rome is doing at home: if Rome declares war on Carthage, if a Successor (maybe even Pontus) is played by a human, they have the option of "coming to the defense of Carthage/stemming the Latin tide", which offers the player no benefit, causes war with Rome and spawns a Rome stack as usual. However, on some victory condition, Rome could be considered "defeated" and stop spawning AI war stacks. Victory here, probably around 240 to 180 BC, would be a costly affair, and would be a serious unneeded distraction from their UHVs, but available at the player's discretion.
Oh and as for "Crimean conquerors event": 90% of the time, Crimea gets attacked by barbs and the city gets captured by them (or razed). Sinope's "palace" culture alone is enough to convert this barbarian city to Pontus. It's really on the mainland that it is lacking.
Edit: Cappadocia is not in the Roman area, so it flips to barbs on capture. This is probably true for a few other civs, so you may want to check those "normal" areas, or whatever they're called. Also, "Media" flips to barbs when Bactria captures it. That province is not too far away from the Bactrian core in my opinion.
Pontus
So I've played a portion of a Pontus game and this is how its gone so far.
Early on I moved my capital 1E and settled Sinop. After that I sent my 2 Uzali to conquer Byzantion. I raised mercenaries and conquered Pella, Athens, and Trapezus as they spawend. Chersones was razed by barbarians before I could take it.
One thing I noticed is that barbarian pressure on Byzantian is significant. 2-3 Scythican, or Sarmatian horses come at the city every few turns, it was tough keeping them from razing that pasture. If the AI Pontus had taken it they would probably lose it shortly. Aside from that barbarian harassment was annoying but noting that couldn't be handled.
I had the good fortune of getting a Great Prophet and building a shrine in Athens which gave me a real boost. It took some work and effort but I was gradually able to catch up to the big dogs, the Selecids and the Romans. The Antigonids got crushed by Roman stacks, but no Romans ever spawned in Greece and while the Romans have Ephesus and Antiochia, our relations are catious.
I founded that city in Cappdocia, it's decent enough now and has strategic use to put pressure on Roman Ephesus. The Selucids sent a large stack into Armenia which gave me a heart attack when I saw it because I thought they were coming for me, but they conquered Armenia before it spawned and kicked them out.
The Celts founded a city in Bavaria that's giiving a TXT ERROR MESSAGE
It took me till 84 BCE to get the cities I conquered into a good shape and build my infastructure. I'm still behind technologically but I'm now in a position where I can build up the military rather than just focusing on buildings. Mercenaries made up the vast bulk of my army up to this point. The shrine allowed me to hire some good spearman and horseman that have been quite good at defending my borders so far. No shortage of mercenaries really.
I'm not sure if it's possible, but maybe you could make mercenaries regional? It would be nice if Macedonian spearman spawned in Pella and Spartans in Athens or something like that. But might be too complicated.
Overall Pontus is interesting, has a lot of potential now that I have things in gear, but I can see why the AI struggles with it. If you don't expand aggressively and take Byzantion and Greece then I doubt it's possible to achieve much. And the technological backwardness to the neighbors doesn't help either.
My suggestion is to have Pontus flip Trapezus and Chersones automatically, and give them maybe one more Uzali to let them take Byzantion.
Also Kalinga never achieves anything, just sits there with its one city.
I'll let you know how my war with Rome goes. My goal is to take Ephesus and Antiochiea.
So I've played a portion of a Pontus game and this is how its gone so far.
Early on I moved my capital 1E and settled Sinop. After that I sent my 2 Uzali to conquer Byzantion. I raised mercenaries and conquered Pella, Athens, and Trapezus as they spawend. Chersones was razed by barbarians before I could take it.
One thing I noticed is that barbarian pressure on Byzantian is significant. 2-3 Scythican, or Sarmatian horses come at the city every few turns, it was tough keeping them from razing that pasture. If the AI Pontus had taken it they would probably lose it shortly. Aside from that barbarian harassment was annoying but noting that couldn't be handled.
I had the good fortune of getting a Great Prophet and building a shrine in Athens which gave me a real boost. It took some work and effort but I was gradually able to catch up to the big dogs, the Selecids and the Romans. The Antigonids got crushed by Roman stacks, but no Romans ever spawned in Greece and while the Romans have Ephesus and Antiochia, our relations are catious.
I founded that city in Cappdocia, it's decent enough now and has strategic use to put pressure on Roman Ephesus. The Selucids sent a large stack into Armenia which gave me a heart attack when I saw it because I thought they were coming for me, but they conquered Armenia before it spawned and kicked them out.
The Celts founded a city in Bavaria that's giiving a TXT ERROR MESSAGE
It took me till 84 BCE to get the cities I conquered into a good shape and build my infastructure. I'm still behind technologically but I'm now in a position where I can build up the military rather than just focusing on buildings. Mercenaries made up the vast bulk of my army up to this point. The shrine allowed me to hire some good spearman and horseman that have been quite good at defending my borders so far. No shortage of mercenaries really.
I'm not sure if it's possible, but maybe you could make mercenaries regional? It would be nice if Macedonian spearman spawned in Pella and Spartans in Athens or something like that. But might be too complicated.
Overall Pontus is interesting, has a lot of potential now that I have things in gear, but I can see why the AI struggles with it. If you don't expand aggressively and take Byzantion and Greece then I doubt it's possible to achieve much. And the technological backwardness to the neighbors doesn't help either.
My suggestion is to have Pontus flip Trapezus and Chersones automatically, and give them maybe one more Uzali to let them take Byzantion.
Also Kalinga never achieves anything, just sits there with its one city.
I'll let you know how my war with Rome goes. My goal is to take Ephesus and Antiochiea.
Wessel V1
Emperor
I played a game as Armenia today, first game in about 100 revisions so many things have changed. I followed this thread in the meanwhile so I knew the new civs would be in. It's interesting to see that the new civs have changed the dynamic in the region. Previously, the Seleucids were the dominant force until the Parthians, but not anymore. The inclusion of the Antigonids and Pontus made the game a bit easier. It is fun to play though. I remembered Christianity gets auto-founded in Jerusalem so I traded the prerequisite techs with Judea for some things they didn't need anyway. Then it was all about building science until I figured out they may as well be taken out of the game by force. From that point onwards it was a smooth game to the finish, although I had to make sure Pontus couldn't get a state religion. It seems at least 50% of my cities must have a religion to declare it a state religion, which means avoiding one city states to accidently get the religion and convert straight away.
I noticed that too. I think it's easier to defend Byzantium with a couple of spearmen fortified on the hill N of the pasture - they get promoted pretty quickly and are as effective as in the city itself until you get walls.
Not sure how fortunate you were - in general if you capture Athens you will pop a Great Saint from the wonder before you can even build any buildings to get competing great people slots!
I think it's possible to set a larger flip area for AI civs than when they are human controlled (at least Leo managed it in DoC), so maybe that would be a solution for AI Pontus? I think they'd be OP if they flipped Trapezus and Chersonesos when under human control.
Similar threads
