RFC Classical World

[srpt]

yeah I was thinking the same about the ptolemys. I will replace the third goal with a tech one. 1st to discover cartography and medicine might suit them.

and yes I'd also like to replace some of the generic conquest goals. most of the civs I have never even played for a few turns, so I'm hoping to attract some testers by at least having some kind of goal coded for each civ.

and I'm working on a 220AD scenario to make it easier to test the later civs, cause I've never really played any of them.

 

[The Turk]

The UHVs look good, especially for a first draft. I'm not too fond of "control territory your historical counterpart controlled" goals unless they're really remarkable achievements (like Alexander's or the Roman Empire), but that's of course personal preference. But for example the Ptolemids certainly could replace theirs with something culture or science related.

I slightly disagree Leoreth, most of these Empires/Kindoms are in here because they are famous for expanding their realm to new places, so having a UHV like that is always very interesting, especially when it will lead to the AI trying to emulate its own historical success. But of course, not all UHV's should be primarily territorial ones.

@SRPT
Also you should perhaps think about tidying up your first post, to make it more appealing by perhaps adding some more up to date photos, and listing the civilizations, new tech tree, civics (in game photos of these screens) etc. Although this is perhaps not a priority, it would make your mod more appealing for new people to this mod.

PS. Starting a game as Carthage I noticed a few things:
You should not have two UHV's which are identical, which in this case is the two luxury goods ones, I would recommend therefore that another one, should instead be something about Trade income, you should have Carthage attain a high trade income by xx date. Also the one about "capturing" (should be control) Rome, should rather be something about controlling the territory that they did before the 1st Punic War:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/CarthageMap.png
And also perhaps the annihilation or vassalization of Rome. Also there should be an oligarchy civic option for civilizations like the Roman Republic (which were just that), but also for Carthage, who were a Merchant Oligarchy.

Another consideration I urge you to take up, would be the removal of religions from the tech trees, and allow them instead to spread naturally/historically. When you have such a large map, with many different civs, I would find it more appropriate to have certain religions be founded on their historical foundation time, and then through provinces, control where religions are more likely to spread (ex. no Christianity in China, no Buddhism in Persia).

Two other civilizations to consider: Kingdom of Goryeo (Korea) and the Sui Dynasty (reunification of China and Buddhism spreaders).

Out of curiosity why did you add Jainism, a relatively minor religion, but you did not add any Phoenician religion for the Carthaginians or Monophysitism, which in the eyes of the Byzantine Empire was a very large heretical belief that spread in Syria, Armenia, Egypt and North Africa, it is largely why many of these provinces were willing to "flip" to the oncoming Islamic tide, after decades of persecution from Constantinople.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monophysitism

Also it should be the Arab Caliphate, not the Arabian Kingdom (that sounds more appropriate for some pre-Islamic Bedouin tribe)

I would try to write/test more, but I have exams coming up now, and my vacation has just ended, so I will be busy for about a week or two, but will try to keep active on this forum! Great mod nonetheless!

 

[Leoreth]

What do UHV goals have to do with AI performance?

 

[The Turk]

What do UHV goals have to do with AI performance?

No I meant, that the human player would go for a more full representation of their Empire, and that if you have territorial UHV's, you can open up more border provinces for the computer to expand to, but I have yet to look at all the border provinces for each civ, so I'm still in the dark about this to some extent.

 

[Leoreth]

Well, border provinces and such should be influenced by historicity anyway, regardless of UHV goals.

 

[srpt]

the civs, UUs, UBs, UPs, UHVs and civics are listed comprehensively in the 3rd post. the screenshots in the first and second post are not really obsolete in any way, but I will post some more if I get some cool ones. I prefer to just type out the civics since with a screenshot you cannot show all the details at once.

Goguryeo and the Oligarchy civic are both included. the thing about the Sui dynasty is they only lasted 29 years... thats a little short. I did include 4 Chinese dynasties.

the 2 carthaginian luxury goals are actually quite different in that one can be achieved without trading outside the medditerranean while the other requires trading with India or China.

the Carthaginians' religion died with them roughly 100 years into the time frame of the mod, while Jainism survived the entire time, patronised by many south indian kingdoms. Also I wanted india to be distinguished by religious abundance.

Most of the religions are already founded at the start of the mod. Christianity will found in a random mediterranean city that has both Judaism and Hellenism, but I will set things up so that the mediterranean civs plus Armenia have a chance to found it through research. Christianity did spread all the way to China in the classical period by the way, it just didn't really stick there. Manichaeism is the wild card, anyone can found it as far as I'm concerned. Islam will be almost impossible to get before the Arabs spawn with it, as usual.

if I can think of a way to include heresies/schisms without creating whole religions for them it would be fun to including Monophysites, Shias, and Arians in some way.
there are religion and civ-specific spread rates in the DLL, same as SoI, so I should be able to achieve reasonably historic results by tweaking them.

all that being said, I'm not trying to make a mod that sticks to history as much as SoI. for one thing, the level of detailed information available is often almost zero, so speculation has to play a role.

 

[rrosen]

Some impressions with Carthage revision 177:
I really like the early game dynamics they have in relation to the barbarians and Rome!

I think a good strategy is to try to keep Sicily when it tries to flip, which initiates a first Punic war when the Roman conquerors spawn. They need to be defeated. The continuous stream of barbarians in both Africa and Spain is a serious threat, and you need to balance how large standing army you have. Due to their special power, the primary army is mercenaries - which cost money. You also need a thematically large fleet, to transport mercenaries and protect your fishing.

For the second Punic war, you need to conquer Rome. The Romans have a humongous stack of legionaries, which usually heads towards Greece. Therefore you must strike quickly and you need to utilize your fleets and land a large force close to Rome. I don't see any realistic way to conquer and keep Rome against their huge army, so I'm strongly against changing the UHV the way The Turk proposes.

The first UHV was very easy. The six happiness resources were pearls (Sardinia), ivory (Africa), silver (Spain), salt and wine (Sicily) and dye (Masilla). Only area which needed conquering was Masilla.

I accomplished to remaining four in 100 BC, by conquering the fur in Gaul, gold in Egypt and olives/incense from Jerusalem.

Playing Carthage, especially the early game, has a very good historical touch. The first UHV is (unintentionally?) easy. The third UHV is bugged, it failed automatically, either from the start or very early on, even though it is "control 10 luxuries by 100 AD".

For some reason I get alot of espionage points for free (20 early on, 28 at the end), which gave vision of several other civs. What is the source of them?

Military economyc is listed TXT_KEY_CIVIC_MILITARY_ECONOMY_STRATEGY.

My stability was very low (-10 to -20) for quite a long time, without any city declaring independence. How are the revolt mechanism working?

To summarize, I am very satisfied with how Carthage plays out, don't change too much

 

[srpt]

well oops, slat and olives were supposed to be health resources so the luxury goals aren't that easy. I also moved the furs NE a bit. the 3rd goal is fixed.

sometimes stability behaviour seems a little odd but civs do collapse. I can't remember if I've seen any cities declaring independence.

I've no clue about the espionage points.

I'm glad you enjoyed Carthage. with salt and olives out of the picture the third goal should require trading beyond the mediterranean. how did you get the incense? did you conquer jerusalem? also it seems the north african elephants disappeared as early as 100BC according to wikipedia so that ivory should be coded accordingly. I'll let them keep it til around 50BC so they can use the elephants against Rome. I thought another interesting goal for them might be: prevent Rome from controling any mediterranean provinces at a certain date.

 

[rrosen]

With ivory gone it will certainly be harder. With the given changes above, I think I will not conquer Gaul and instead befriend them, as they were willing to trade a fur away. The incense came from a conquest of Jerusalem, and a dye can also be found in the Levant. At some point I had pepper traded from India, but with salt & olives gone an additional resource is needed.

An anti-Rome goal in addition to just conquering Rome would require you to gather an army which could defeat their large stack of legionaries. I wonder if that is realistic. Perhaps I ought to try a game with the explicit goal of defeating their stack.

 

[srpt]

hey if you have any cool looking screenshots please post them.

also, all 36 civs now have UHVs. they are all listed in the 3rd post.

 

[rrosen]

I don't have any savegames, but will definitely remember screenshots in the future. It is probably nicer to see player reports with screenshots included

 

[rrosen]

Carthage, revision 179:

Initial plan:

Get siege engines, then save up a humongous amount of gold. Buy an army around 200 BC, and kill the Roman legionaries. Spain/North Africa. is well defended with several stacks against barbarians.

All goes well in the first Punic war.

Spoiler :

I realize the source of the mystical espionage income - fish merchants.

The second punic war is initiated by a huge fleet of mercenaries landing near Rome (more awaiting in Carthage). With a lightning strike, Italy is conquered before the huge stack has returned.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

We pursued the puny Romans to their holdout in Athens. The Romans collapsed, without we actually having to fight their huge army! It seems like a decent strategy: hire a gargantuan army of mercenary, then either fight on very favorable ground, or use hit-and run tactics to wear the Romans down. I've changed my mind, winning a straight up fight against them is possible.

Spoiler :

It is now 126 BC, and I really ought to get to bed. I have conquered Italy, Greece, Anatolia, the Levant and Mesopotamia. I have seven luxuries at the moment: Dye (Levant), fur (trade from the Celts), Gold (trade from Egypt), silver (own mines), wine (several locations, including Sicily), pearls (Sardinia) and ivory (North Africa). Incese will come any year now, as Damascus expand. BOth Indian civs dislike me, and their trade network isn't connected. At the moment, I feel that the best course of action is to slip a strike force for India through the Parthian lands (open border), declare war to steal a pepper, and finally do a suprise attack against Parthia to steal the sugar from Susa.

Spoiler :

The Carthaginians have an enormous military potential, if you build the economic infrastructure necessary for it. You can radically improve the quality of the army fighting Rome by continuously checking for high level mercenaries (nearly all mercenaries cost 1 gold in upkeep for them).

By the way, I just now realized that whipping is allowed here. I've gotten so used to SoI, where it is not included. While an incredibly powerful tool if used correctly, I think the game is more fun without it and some other effect for slavery.

 

[srpt]

thanks for the detailed report. looks like a fun game. the Indian civs would probably trade with you if you gave them some gold, no? do they have a reason for not liking you? did you get open borders with egypt and send a boat through the canal/fort?

companies no longer give commerce per resource (they weren't intended to), just the bonuses from the buildings they allow.

mercenary maintenance costs have been increased a bit.

there is now a 220AD start which needs a lot of work but its there anyway.

there is also a barb event for the Mauryans around 185BC, representing the Sunga coup. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunga_Empire). the player gets a warning and then a few turns later some barb elephants and other troops spawn in Magadha inside the Mauryans borders. this is intended to collapse the AI Mauryans and allow them to respawn as the Sungas. I did this partly just to see how it would work and partly because the Mauryans seem a bit OP so far.

I've been very busy with music the past couple of weeks and haven't had much time for modding but I should be back at it soon.

 

[rrosen]

Yep, it was fun. The Indian civs were at war with each other, and I had open borders with both of them, giving a negative impact. After connecting to their trade network, I would probably quite quickly be able to trade resources after giving some gifts. I couldn't send a boat eastwards, since the Egyptians culture didn't include the fort.

Speaking of warnings, would it be possible to include a delay+warning for the Roman Legionaries (which city they are going to spawn close to)? Particularly for the Seleucids it would be beneficial, as they could shift troops and hope to defend a city, instead of giving it away. Perhaps then the number of Roman conquerors could be increased, making the first Punic war somewhat harder.

The first Carthaginian goal is very easy. You get essentially ivory, pearls, silver, wine and fur (trade from Celts) for free, so you only have to trade/conquer a single resource, which is not very demanding to do until 100 BC. If the second luxury goal is kept, you still have to defend the elephants and settle Sardinia.

 

[rrosen]

First failed try with the Celts at revision 182:
The goal to be the most culturally advanced civ in 50 AD is bugged and scores almost immediately.

Tooltip for Gallic warrior and Dun is bugged TXT_KEY_VISGOTHS_DESC.

My initial plan was to befriend Rome by making war with Carthage, capturing Iberia in the meantime for the UHV. This was a bad plan, as the defense against barbarians in Iberia required a large portion of my units. Furthermore, Carthage collapsed, and the Romans quickly declared war on me, catching me off guard.

 

[DC123456789]

What's the difference between svn and non-svn?

 

[merijn_v1]

The non-SVN version is a version we release once in a while. So it's possible it's outdated. The SVN version is constantly up-to-date. Everytime a change is made to the mod, it's automatically update to the SVN.

 

[DC123456789]

How can I download the svn?
The non-svn still has the bug where all your starting cities get razed and your settler ends up in the mountains in Siberia.

 

[merijn_v1]

First, you need tortoiseSVN.

Then, you can use the Checkout and use this root:
https://projectname.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/rfccwsvn


This should be it. Let me know if you have some questions.

 

[srpt]

I will post a new non-svn today. you can get svn here.

@ rrosen and generally: fixed the Celts UHVs and tried them a couple of times but got my lunch handed to me by you-know-who. the Celts are an ahistorical civ right off the bat in terms of being a unified enity so I think its appropriate that they will usually get elimanted and that their UHVs be very hard. I want to find a way to make it extremely difficult to beat the Romans but still possible. Right now I think its impossible. You just don't have a unit that counters Legions at all. I could give Gallic Warriors a larger bonus vs melee but make it attacking only. I was thinking of founding my capital further north and razing Masillia so you have no border contact with the Romans for a while. Obviously you will need suicide catapults to deal with the legions and you need time to get a few of them. I can't let them start with archery or siege engines because I've never read about them using either of those weapons in war. also about the first goal: you don't need to control the provinces, just have a city in them.

about the Roman conquerors: they only spawn on the Egyptians, Carthaginians and Seleucids and only in Africa, Libya, Egypt, Judea, Syria or Anatolia. the aim is to get the Romans into the African coast/eastern Medditerranean so they come face to face with the Persians. so for Carthage you only need to defend 1 or 2 cities.

and where exactly did you see the Visigoths text key? I couldn't find it. Perhaps merijn fixed it?

and I don't know what to do about the mediterranean/red sea link. move Alexandria 1 tile east? I don't want to do that but I really want this connection to exist.

a note about the 220AD scenario: in it the Romans and Han are playable but are not meant to be. I'm trying to figure why the Romans starting stability is so bad while the Han's is fine. the Romans expansion stability is minus fifty something even though all their cities are in their border provinces. as a result they collapse before the Byzantine spawn, which I don't want.