RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

The religious tolerance of Cordoba is highly overstated. Paying submission taxes, etc... the annual knock on the head... 2nd class citizen status for non-Muslims. It is overstated because it was the most tolerant of the Islamic empires, which are pretty darn intolerant.

Poland, on the other hand, actually invited the Jews to come live there. Not that they were perfect either.
Uh... Jews reached their apex in Al Andalus, life there was pretty good actually
Sorry I'm a bit confused, could you please rephrase.

@kochman
I would think that the Jews and Christians in Al-Andalus would have been a lot happier their, then in Eastern Europe at the same time (no offense to any Eastern Europeans). You have to realize that the "tax" or jizya, as its known in Arabic, applied to all Christians and Jews, therefore exempting them from military service, and at times this tax was removed completly (especially during times of peace, which were quite abundent). I should also remind you that many Christians and mostly Jews actually, welcomed the coming of the Al-Andalus to Spain, as they threw off the barbaric Visigoths from Spain all together, and in the wake of the Arab/Berber invasion, a large wave of higher culture and scientific understanding washed across Spain, a lot of this was contributed to Jews and Christians as well, who took part in the research as well, and the common well being of the people. And I can absoulty assure you that a Jew in Al-Andalus (overall) would have been much happier their then in Eastern Europe, especially considering the fact that Al-Andalus had hunderds of public libraries, baths, street lamps, things that would not come to the rest of Europe until around the 18th century. And although, sure, there was the occasional Muslim fanatical ruler, who persecuted Jews, we have to remember that for most of the time, some of the closest people to the Emir/local ruler were Jews and Christians. There are tons of reports of Jews and Christians having very high positions in the burracuracy in Al-Andalus, and I doubt this was the same in Poland at the same time, especially considering they would have been stuck in the European Dark Ages.

So that is why the Cordobans should have the UP of Religious tolerance, because it much better suits them overall, I think that there can be another better UP for Poland, which we can find, and since we have a supposed Pole with us, "Issos", I think he can come up with a better UP for them

They didn't actually have street lamps (however they basically had asphalt streets)



The Viking UHV is exceptionally hard, it takes about 20 turns to get to Sicily plus the settler (also you have to declare war on Cordoba), and then you need a settler for Iceland and also France, plus you need to also spam galleys, lots of them to meet the ocean exploration requirement
 
They didn't actually have street lamps (however they basically had asphalt streets)

"Muslim cities such as Cordoba had advanced domestic water systems with sanitary sewers, public baths, drinking fountains, piped drinking water supplies, and widespread private and public toilet and bathing facilities. The first street lamps were built in the Arab Empire, especially in Cordoba, which also had the first facilities and waste containers for litter collection."

They were not street lamps in the same sense that me have them today, I suspect they were rather lamps on high posts, that were lit each night, this is something which would only be introduced to Europe in the 18th century
 
ah gas lamps, I thought I read that they didn't have lamps and that was a myth through T.E. Lawrence, I apologize for being misinformed
 
Sorry I'm a bit confused, could you please rephrase.

@kochman
I would think that the Jews and Christians in Al-Andalus would have been a lot happier their, then in Eastern Europe at the same time (no offense to any Eastern Europeans). You have to realize that the "tax" or jizya, as its known in Arabic, applied to all Christians and Jews, therefore exempting them from military service, and at times this tax was removed completly (especially during times of peace, which were quite abundent). I should also remind you that many Christians and mostly Jews actually, welcomed the coming of the Al-Andalus to Spain, as they threw off the barbaric Visigoths from Spain all together, and in the wake of the Arab/Berber invasion, a large wave of higher culture and scientific understanding washed across Spain, a lot of this was contributed to Jews and Christians as well, who took part in the research as well, and the common well being of the people. And I can absoulty assure you that a Jew in Al-Andalus (overall) would have been much happier their then in Eastern Europe, especially considering the fact that Al-Andalus had hunderds of public libraries, baths, street lamps, things that would not come to the rest of Europe until around the 18th century. And although, sure, there was the occasional Muslim fanatical ruler, who persecuted Jews, we have to remember that for most of the time, some of the closest people to the Emir/local ruler were Jews and Christians. There are tons of reports of Jews and Christians having very high positions in the burracuracy in Al-Andalus, and I doubt this was the same in Poland at the same time, especially considering they would have been stuck in the European Dark Ages.

So that is why the Cordobans should have the UP of Religious tolerance, because it much better suits them overall, I think that there can be another better UP for Poland, which we can find, and since we have a supposed Pole with us, "Issos", I think he can come up with a better UP for them

Ok, previous post edited ;)

I'll begin with clearing one thing. In Poland, we're speaking about tolernace in XIV - XVII century, when it was powerful and rich enouch to attract imigrants. It's hundreds of years after those, so-called, "European Dark Ages".

My speach about tolerance for Turk, and possibly others intrested:

Spoiler :

Jews were invited by king Casimir (Kazimierz - present in game) in XIV c, they were settled in their own towns, as they did't wish to mix with local people. Town Kazimierz is an example of such town-quarter, built just by the capital. Jews enjoyed their own law and separated courts within this catholic kingdom.

When Bohemia was victim of crusades due to earliest attempt of reformation, Poland was the only supporting them neighbour.

Also Casimir had begun our polish verson of drang nach osten. He conquered some small rus principalities. In next 100 years most of them were under polish-lithuanian control. One of effects of that expansion was appereance of huge group in society that was actually orthodox. We left their churches, we left their organisation (until XVII when we became weary of moscovian impact on orthodox bishops - clearly political problem). On these land we had also some muslims - ascendants of Mongols. Their mosques are still standing in Poland, and they were never victims of any extra taxes or attempts of conversion, as far as i know.

In XV cent luteranism spread in Poland among Germans living there, while calvinism became quite popular among polish nobles. As you possibly know, the main political power was in hands of those nobles, they were forming early parliment - sejm. While king was still catholic, in some periods sejm most mostly calvinic (or calvinist?)

Such stade of things resulted in flow of immigrants. especially from Scotland and Netherlands, also from Germany and Italy.

I'd also ask one more thing, Turk, how many "infidels" (in % of society) were there in Cordoba in most "tolerant" period?

I'm asking, because in Commonwealth more than 50% were not-catholic.


But main reason for leaving that UP for Poland is that it suits perfectly its new UHV - about having religious diversity in country.

Btw, what i learnt, was that in most early muslim countries (arabian, not turkish) the only problem for christians and jews was that extra tax... so it's not incredibly unique for Cordoba. It is for catholic kongdom, though.

Also, You and Civ_king gave us examples of Cordoban achievments and progress... so why aren't you satisfied with it's current UP?


Also2 - i think we're in wrong thread.


Also3 -
The Viking UHV is exceptionally hard, it takes about 20 turns to get to Sicily plus the settler (also you have to declare war on Cordoba), and then you need a settler for Iceland and also France, plus you need to also spam galleys, lots of them to meet the ocean exploration requirement

I found it pretty easy, honestly. It demands some effort, but not too much ;)
 
Sorry I'm a bit confused, could you please rephrase.

@kochman
I would think that the Jews and Christians in Al-Andalus would have been a lot happier their, then in Eastern Europe at the same time (no offense to any Eastern Europeans). You have to realize that the "tax" or jizya, as its known in Arabic, applied to all Christians and Jews, therefore exempting them from military service, and at times this tax was removed completly (especially during times of peace, which were quite abundent). I should also remind you that many Christians and mostly Jews actually, welcomed the coming of the Al-Andalus to Spain, as they threw off the barbaric Visigoths from Spain all together, and in the wake of the Arab/Berber invasion, a large wave of higher culture and scientific understanding washed across Spain, a lot of this was contributed to Jews and Christians as well, who took part in the research as well, and the common well being of the people.

You say that the Muslims are welcomed by the people of origin. That means the Muslims weren't tolerant, but the "Spaniards".

And I can absoulty assure you that a Jew in Al-Andalus (overall) would have been much happier their then in Eastern Europe, especially considering the fact that Al-Andalus had hunderds of public libraries, baths, street lamps, things that would not come to the rest of Europe until around the 18th century.

You can't say this for sure. You don't know how they felt in those days. This is just a thing you like yourself, but it wasn't for the Jews in that time. (maybe it was, but you can't know for sure)

And although, sure, there was the occasional Muslim fanatical ruler, who persecuted Jews, we have to remember that for most of the time, some of the closest people to the Emir/local ruler were Jews and Christians. There are tons of reports of Jews and Christians having very high positions in the burracuracy in Al-Andalus, and I doubt this was the same in Poland at the same time, especially considering they would have been stuck in the European Dark Ages.

So that is why the Cordobans should have the UP of Religious tolerance, because it much better suits them overall, I think that there can be another better UP for Poland, which we can find, and since we have a supposed Pole with us, "Issos", I think he can come up with a better UP for them

IMO, the UP definitely doesn't fit the Cordobans more than Poland, but the opposite. You said yourself that "The power of Medicine" fits well for the Cordobans. And Luko (also a Pole) introduced the idea of the Tolerance UP. And many others (Pole and non-Poles) agreed with him.
An other reason why I think it should stay is for the gameplay. (IMO that's very important) The Polish normally have more religions in their territory than the Cordobans. Also, it makes their UHV better doable. If you synchronize the UP with the UHVs, that makes the game more fun to play.
 
You say that the Muslims are welcomed by the people of origin. That means the Muslims weren't tolerant, but the "Spaniards".

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I will try to rephrase, because perhaps you didn't understand me.

When the Muslims first arrived, the Jews and Christians (Romanized Christians) of Al-Andalus were very welcoming of the Arab/Berber invasion. They were happy to throw off the yoke of the old Visigoth regime, which was largely barbaric in manner.

You can't say this for sure. You don't know how they felt in those days. This is just a thing you like yourself, but it wasn't for the Jews in that time. (maybe it was, but you can't know for sure)

Actually modern historians can actually say that for certain. There have been hundreds of accounts of foreigners who have travelled to Al-Andalusia (Cordoba specifically), saying that it was the greatest city on earth, and that it was unrivalled at its apex. When civ_king said, that the Jews reached their apex in Al-Andalus, he is ABSOLUTELY right, probably the greatest amount of Jewish thinkers and scientists were developed in Al-Andalus, and I can say for certain, that there were more famous Jewish scholars from Al-Andalus then there were from Poland. The Jews really did flourish in Al-Andalus, and at one point, Cordoba was the biggest and greatest city in all of Europe (bigger than Constantinople even). Overall the standard of living was MUCH higher than the rest of Europe, and I can say that it was probably much higher than Poland's, at any time during the RFC Europe time frame

IMO, the UP definitely doesn't fit the Cordobans more than Poland, but the opposite. You said yourself that "The power of Medicine" fits well for the Cordobans. And Luko (also a Pole) introduced the idea of the Tolerance UP. And many others (Pole and non-Poles) agreed with him.
An other reason why I think it should stay is for the gameplay. (IMO that's very important) The Polish normally have more religions in their territory than the Cordobans. Also, it makes their UHV better doable. If you synchronize the UP with the UHVs, that makes the game more fun to play.

I said that the UP for the Cordobans, was OK, but it was VERY generalized, in the sense that ANY Muslim civilization in the game could get the power of medicine, although a lot of new technologies were found in Al-Andalus as well, just as many new technologies for medicine were also found by Muslim countries as far away as Persia/Central Asia (Transoxania, as it was known).

And I would say that the Cordobans can get just as many religions, they get easily, Islam, Catholicism, Judaism (they should have an increased number though), and randomly they get Orthodox Christianity from time to time, (and Protestantism when it spawns), so I wouldn't be so quick to say that the Poles get higher religious tolerance, and anyways, when we're talking about religious tolerance, we should really only be talking about Judaism, Christianity and Islam, (although I understand there was a century of Christian infighting, that does not parallel, the conflict between the former religions).

And as for the UHV, I think religious tolerance is VERY important for the Cordoban civ, because you can have it so that there is increased scientific output/ happiness per non state religion, which would help the Cordoban UHV a lot as well.

Overall, all I'm saying is that I think that a better UHV for Poland can be planned out, and that although yes, the Poles were "tolerant" of other religions, I don't think it could have parralleld that of the tolerance of Al-Andalus, and I think that you have concentrated on a minor fact of Poland's long and great history, so rather then focusing on something which they are not very well known for (This is the first time I've ever heard of this), I think you should consider thinking for something a bit more mainstream for the Poles, and I'll help come up with another UP as well for them

@Issos
Could you please tell me where you got your statistic from, when you said that there was MORE than 50% non-Catholics in Poland, because that sounds amazingly steep, a bit unrealistic, please provide your source, its not that I'm doubting you, its that I would like to learn more about Poland as well
 
Overall, all I'm saying is that I think that a better UHV for Poland can be planned out, and that although yes, the Poles were "tolerant" of other religions, I don't think it could have parralleld that of the tolerance of Al-Andalus, and I think that you have concentrated on a minor fact of Poland's long and great history, so rather then focusing on something which they are not very well known for (This is the first time I've ever heard of this), I think you should consider thinking for something a bit more mainstream for the Poles, and I'll help come up with another UP as well for them

And I think that you have concentrated on a fact of Cordobian great achievments. All You came up with was higher standards of life... generally. Poland didn't have oil lamps, nor such glorious city as Al-Andalusia, true... but what's the connection between that, and "tolerance UP" itself? Tolerance isn't only source of welfare and scientific progress ;) . Not even most important, i'm afraid.

Poles are not known for their religiuos tolerance during raging religiuos wars in europe? I had completly different impression while reading this forum O.o

when we're talking about religious tolerance, we should really only be talking about Judaism, Christianity and Islam, (although I understand there was a century of Christian infighting, that does not parallel, the conflict between the former religions).

Since You understand that, why you're not taking it under consideration? If the mod is about europe(not about global aspect), they definetly do parallel!

Could you please tell me where you got your statistic from, when you said that there was MORE than 50% non-Catholics in Poland, because that sounds amazingly steep, a bit unrealistic, please provide your source, its not that I'm doubting you, its that I would like to learn more about Poland as well

I'm typing from my notebook, but those statistics are similar in most works:

Nations and religions of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth after 1569:

Spoiler :

-40% Poles - catholics and calvinists
-20% Rus (Ukrainian&Belarus) orthodox
-10% Lithuanians - catholics
- 8% Germans - protestants (luterans ans calvinists)
- rest: Jews - quess what ;)
Tatars (Mongols) - islam
Armenian - own church
Imigrants from western europe - protestants and catholics
 
Sorry I'm a bit confused, could you please rephrase.

@kochman
I would think that the Jews and Christians in Al-Andalus would have been a lot happier their, then in Eastern Europe at the same time (no offense to any Eastern Europeans). You have to realize that the "tax" or jizya, as its known in Arabic, applied to all Christians and Jews, therefore exempting them from military service, and at times this tax was removed completly (especially during times of peace, which were quite abundent). I should also remind you that many Christians and mostly Jews actually, welcomed the coming of the Al-Andalus to Spain, as they threw off the barbaric Visigoths from Spain all together, and in the wake of the Arab/Berber invasion, a large wave of higher culture and scientific understanding washed across Spain, a lot of this was contributed to Jews and Christians as well, who took part in the research as well, and the common well being of the people. And I can absoulty assure you that a Jew in Al-Andalus (overall) would have been much happier their then in Eastern Europe, especially considering the fact that Al-Andalus had hunderds of public libraries, baths, street lamps, things that would not come to the rest of Europe until around the 18th century. And although, sure, there was the occasional Muslim fanatical ruler, who persecuted Jews, we have to remember that for most of the time, some of the closest people to the Emir/local ruler were Jews and Christians. There are tons of reports of Jews and Christians having very high positions in the burracuracy in Al-Andalus, and I doubt this was the same in Poland at the same time, especially considering they would have been stuck in the European Dark Ages.

So that is why the Cordobans should have the UP of Religious tolerance, because it much better suits them overall, I think that there can be another better UP for Poland, which we can find, and since we have a supposed Pole with us, "Issos", I think he can come up with a better UP for them
Your argument is that "life was better" because Cordoba was more technologically advanced, and the subsequent "happiness" there means the Jews were better off (no mention of the Christians, which were greater in population of course, and were more harshly persecuted)... it has zero to due with tolerance, however, which is the question here... not standard of living as seen through rainbow colored lenses that can't see all the story.

Here is some inconvenient history that you seem to be ignoring:
The history of Islamic Spain begins, of course, with violent conquest. Make no mistake about it.
The Crónica Bizantina of 741 A.D., the Crónica mozárabe of 754 A.D. and the illustrations to the thirteenth-century Cantigas de Santa María chronicle the brutality with which the Muslims subjugated the Catholic population. From then on, the best rulers of al- Andalus were autocrats who through brute force kept the peace in the face of religious, dynastic, racial, and other divisions.

It was Abd al-Rahman I (734?-788) who ordered the demolition of the ancient Catholic church of Cordoba to build the much admired mosque.

During his reign and that of Abd al-Rahman II (822-852), the conqueror of Barcelona, Catholics suffered confiscations of property, enslavement, and increases in their exacted tribute, which helped finance the embellishment of Islamic Cordoba.

Under Abd al-Rahman II and Muhammad I (822-886), a number of Catholics were killed in Cordoba for preaching against Islam, while others were expelled from the city. Among these victims was Saint Eulogio, beheaded by the Islamic authorities. Muhammad I ordered that “newly constructed churches be destroyed as well as anything in the way of refinements that might adorn the old churches added since the Arab conquest.

In addition to building more palaces and subsidizing the arts and sciences in Cordoba, Al-Mansur (d. 1002) burned heretical booksand terrorized Catholics, sacking Zaragoza, Osma, Zamora, Leon, Astorga, Coimbra, and Santiago de Compostela. In 985 he burned down Barcelona, enslaving all those he did not kill.

Later came the Almohades to reunify a fractured Islamic Andalusia. By 1170 the almohades had taken control of Andalusia and unleashed new horrors on Catholics, Jews, and other Muslims. That the ruthless almohades also produced marvelous architecture and were responsible for the beauty of some mozarabic buildings, such as Santa María la Blanca in Toledo, captures nicely the true nature of Andalusian Spain.

The early Muslim invaders were relatively small in numbers, so it was politically prudent to grant religious autonomy to Catholics, while trying to protect themselves from the “contagion” of Catholic influence by segregating themselves from the subject majority. Therefore they maintained the Catholics in a state of dhimmitude —as a “protected” class curtailed from any possibility of sharing political power or compromising the hegemonic position of Islam. In times of war or political turmoil, the Catholics’ freedom was further restricted. Catholics fleeing Muslim rule lost all “protection,” and their property was confiscated by the conquerors. “Tolerance at this extreme,” notices historian Robert I. Burns, “is not easily distinguished from intolerance."

Jews formed, for a time, an intermediary class between the hegemonic Muslims and the defeated Catholics. This was the so-called “Spanish Jewish Golden Age.” But Jews remained "dhimmi", a group subject to and serving the Muslim rulers. These presumably “best of times” ended in any event with the arrival of the jihadist almoravides and almohades. Jews as well as Catholics fell victim to their renewed religious zeal. Many Jews migrated to Catholic lands as a result.

In Granada in 1066 - even before the arrival of the almoravides—rioting Muslim mobs assassinated the rabbi and visir Joseph Ibn Naghrela and destroyed the entire Jewish community; thousands perished - more than those killed by mobs in the Rhineland at the beginning of the First Crusade.

Shall I even get into gender and racial tolerance or lack thereof in this most magnificent center of culture and greatness?

No wonder that when political correctness did not yet exist, the great historian of Islam, Evariste Lévi-Provençal, observed: “The Muslim Andalusian state appears from its earliest origins as the defender and champion of a jealous orthodoxy, more and more ossified in a blind respect for a rigid doctrine, suspecting and condemning in advance the least effort of rational speculation.”
 
I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I will try to rephrase, because perhaps you didn't understand me.

When the Muslims first arrived, the Jews and Christians (Romanized Christians) of Al-Andalus were very welcoming of the Arab/Berber invasion. They were happy to throw off the yoke of the old Visigoth regime, which was largely barbaric in manner.

I did understand you, but you didn't understand me. I said:

The muslim people were not tolerant, but the inhabitant before the muslims were. They allowed the muslims to take their lands. So THEY were the one who were tolerant. If you are allowed to take the lands of someone, you are not tolerant. (just lucky)

I looked in the dictionary and it says:
Tolerant - willing to let other people think and act different (not: you are allowed to take people land if they allow it)
 
Ok first off, and quickly @merijn_v1:
Well the inhabitants of Spain before the invasion were the Visigoths, who of course fought for their lands, why would they give them up voluntarily to the Muslims?

@kochman

I really have to put my hands together for all that you have wrote, and truthfully its very good, and I would love to talk about your short list of exceptions (believe me, this is quite short for the era) and explain to you that all civilizations, ALWAYS have exceptions to them; but alas....
I must wake up early tomorrow for work, and must therefore go to bed:(
So hopefully I'll be able to post here during break time or after work.

But really good job, and I hope you realize that this list is quite marvellously short and bloodless, not to mention merciful compared to the incidents of barbarism and intolerance, which were happening farther North in Europe at the same time, I will suggest you read this book (order on Amazon if you must), its called,
"A World Lit Only By Fire: The Medieval Mind And the Renaissance - Portrait of An Age", its by: William Manchester (American Author, maybe you can connect), but he basically paints a picture of Medieval Europe, which is quite interesting, and shows how it lifted itself up from barbarism to the light of the Renaissance. Also I would LOVE it if you could please suggest a book back to me, as I would love to read something from your mindset, as in something which you though was a good book, I like reading books which challenge my mindset, and I thought such an educated man such as yourself should have a book worthy of what I mentioned above ;)

Also on a final note, before I fall asleep; for future reference, please do not quote historians from the past, like Robert Burns (who was active during the 18th century, for those who don't know him), its like quoting Edward Gibbon about the Byzantine Empire. He was quite ignorant of Byzantium, therefore didn't speak very highly of them, since you didn't have much of an understanding of how important they really were. Overall he really sidestepped them when writing his large volume about the Fall and Decline of the Roman Empire. In that same way, I can imagine that Robert Burns, must have been quite ignorant of histories outside of his locals, and did not posses all the tools modern historians have today; FYI I am very critical of older historians (although I realize some are extremely important)

PPS. I would suggest that everyone who is interested, should listen to Lars Brownworth's, "12 Byzantine Rulers" podcast, which is VERY good, and even kochman should like it since Brownworth is VERY critical of the Muslim invasion of Byzantine territory and of the Ottoman advance (but we won:D) (I think he has quite a bad biasses against them, but perhaps that's just me), but nonetheless, if your not Turkish as myself, you should check it out :) (and his book as well)
 
Ok first off, and quickly @merijn_v1:
Well the inhabitants of Spain before the invasion were the Visigoths, who of course fought for their lands, why would they give them up voluntarily to the Muslims?

If they didn't voluntary give up their lands, why they are welcomed they muslims (and give their lands)?

If I understand what you mean, you say that the muslims had to conquer Al-Andalus (because the land isn't given voluntary). I think that they are NOT welcomed by the inhabitants. Would you welcome people that conquer your house?
 
Merlijn, we both know that the Arabs took Spain by force... The Turk is just using revisionist history here to make fictitious arguments.

Your counterargument, Turk, is that while Cordoba wasn't really tolerant, compared to the others, they were... sorry, that doesn't make them tolerant.

The Turk, my list, short but accurate, was only short because I only spent a few short minutes researching it. If I spent longer, I guarantee could have a lot more, BUT, I made my point, and people don't need to be bored any longer.

Your assertion that historians who are contempary are irrelevant is also completely lame. Where I come from, I don't have to get my sources approved by the state and revisionist historians.

My point was proved.
The idea of a "tolerant Muslim nation", whether it be Cordoba, or at any point in Islam's history, is completely false.
There are dozens and dozens of books that discuss this topic... just go to amazon.com and type in "islam" + "intolerant".
 
Kochman, the fact that you disagree with The Turk does not allow you to call him a "revisionist", nor his arguments "fictitious" without complete, clear counter arguments. Personally, I did not find your arguments very convincing. You are saying that you could make a longer list : well please do, even in a spoiler, because some of us are not convinced with your short list of 65 years of intolerance (822-886), the burning of a church (however great it was) and violences during wars.

For example, one of your argument is to say that Cordoba was more tolerant than most European countries at that time, but that it doesn't mean they were tolerant. We are here discussing whether or not the Cordoban UP should be the power of tolerance (and obviously, whether the kingdom of Cordoba was tolerant or not). The fact that (I'm quoting you again) "compared to the others, they were" tolerant make them tolerant enough for us to grant them the UP.

You have made it quite clear in earlier posts that you dislike Islam in general. You have called in another thread (or was it this one ?) the ottoman empire "evil", and now you are trying to show that the Cordoban kingdoms was highly intolerant towards non-Muslims. It would maybe be better for the sake of this discussion if you tried to put any prejudice you might have towards Islam aside, try to put yourself in the head of someone neutral or who thinks the Islamic kingdoms were quite tolerant in the middle ages before giving us your arguments, to see if you seem convincing. For now, unfortunately, IMO you are not, but if you are able to give reasonable arguments about a huge part of the Cordoban era where the kingdom was intolerant I will accept this argument and rejoin your point of view towards the UP.

And by the way, the fact that a certain number of people say something (like writing books about Cordoba being intolerant) doesn't mean it's true. Especially when these people are Jesuits like Robert I. Burns you quoted previously. I try to never use religious text or writings by men of church as historical evidence.
 
I have presented facts (and well more than 65 years that you point to???) in a few minutes to make my point, being more tolerant than Nazis, for example, does not make you tolerant by exception. That is fallacious logic to say the least! The Cordobans were more tolerant than completely intolerant nations, but they were far, far from tolerant.

There are many many many more facts out there to support my case, than what I have presented. However, I don't feel like spending the time spoonfeeding you the truth.

If it really matters to you, look it up yourself.
If it doesn't, don't look it up.

Frankly, I don't care whether you do or not, or whether you accept what I am saying or what the Turk is saying.
I simply opened the door to a truth for you; it is up to you to walk through it or not.

Me expounding over the internet will not convince anyone of anything, people can only convince themselves. Believe me, there are many many sources other than Burns.

In finale, I challenge you to research it for yourself, if you actually care. I had previously researched the history of Cordoba (why I knew it was not tolerant), and the history of Islam, that is why I am 100% convinced of my opinion.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I will try to rephrase, because perhaps you didn't understand me.

When the Muslims first arrived, the Jews and Christians (Romanized Christians) of Al-Andalus were very welcoming of the Arab/Berber invasion. They were happy to throw off the yoke of the old Visigoth regime, which was largely barbaric in manner.

I don't know if the original populations were really "very welcoming" of yet a new military invasion.
However the Caliphate Cordoba was, for the times, more tolerant with Jewish than some Christian counterpart.
This doesn't mean that Jewish and Christian had same rights, no persecution, or no discrimination at all.

The "golden age" of Jewish in Cordoba started at about 911AD (some historians have different dates) and finished in 1066 with the first major persecution.
December 30 1066 is the date of Granada massacre, when a Muslim mob stormed the royal palace in Granada, crucified Jewish vizier Joseph ibn Naghrela and massacred most of the Jewish population of the city. "More than 1,500 Jewish families, numbering 4,000 persons, fell in one day."
This was the first large scale persecution of Jews on the Peninsula under Islamic rule.

Beginning in 1090 the situation deteriorated further with the invasion of the Almoravids, a puritan Muslim sect from Morocco that made life for the "infidels" much harsher.
Subsequent invasions, Almohads and Marinids, did nothing to improve convivence between people of different creeds.

So, from the historical point of view, the religious tolerance in Cordoba was not that long lived... giving the UP to them is as arbitrary as giving it to any of the other Civs.
We could even argue that maybe Venice deserves the UP for tolerance. :)

In terms of gameplay, and that's the most important point here, having UP of religious tolerance for Cordoba is quite useless.
It doesn't really help as it helped with Hungary (almost all Hungarian towns get both Catholic and Orthodox, plus Protestant when it comes).
I don't know if it will make a huge difference for Poland... I didn't play Poland enough to really judge.
 
Again, I'm not saying that the Cordoban kingdoms were tolerant (I haven't made enough research for that, even though I might take another look on it this afternoon), but that if we are to give the power of tolerance to a civ, it should be the one which had most tolerance in the medieval world. According to The Turk (and others if I remember well), Cordoba was a good possibility, and even yourself said that they were better than most European kingdoms. But maybe the solution would be to forget about the power of tolerance altogether, since apparently no kingdom was tolerant enough for them to have that power. What we all seem to agree on is that in the Cordoban history there were periods of religious tolerance (which is more than what happened in most countries) and some of religious intolerance. Is it enough for them to have the UP, that is the question.
Wolfigor has some points right, the point is for us to give good ideas to those who are kind enough to make this great mod. This is just a game that we are trying to make better, and we are not on a historian's forum debating on the history of Cordoba.
 
I played a game as Cordoba and the UP was really weak, so how about we make it march not medic? Also from other games it seems the AI Spain doesn't try to kill the independent cities that spawn when Cordoba collapses
 
They do, but it takes them a long time to get round to it. Eventually they take control of all of modern day Spain in most cases.
 
They do, but it takes them a long time to get round to it. Eventually they take control of all of modern day Spain in most cases.
They always take over all of Spain, then they expand to other areas, so don't worry, they always will.

On another note, sorry for not responding today, I'm quite busy right now, and I have another early day at the office tommorow morning, so will be going to bed soon, just wanted to say that I think we can all agree that the most tolerant nation in Europe at the time was Cordoba (probably even more tolerant than the Empires in the Middle East), so if we give the power of Tolerance to one nation, that nation should be Cordoba, as they were the most tolerant.

Also civ_king is right, the Cordoba UP right now is pathetically useless/very weak. Thats why I think it would be better to give them the power of tolerance, which would allow them to have increased happiness (per non state religions) and increased science output (per non state religion), I think that makes the most sense.

As for Poland, some people think we're still talking about Hungary, I am POSITIVE that we can find a better and better known UP for them, I was thinking a UP of immigration, basically what Issos was saying before, I think it relates more to immigration, since most of the Christians and Jews were ALREADY in Cordoba at the time, while in the case of Poland, they immigrated, and I think that a immigration UP would be better. Perhaps you could have a UP between a mix of RFC Greece/USA UP, it could be something like this:

Unique Power of Immigration:
Between X year and Y year, Poland gains people from different parts of Europe

**You could add a second part to that UP (since its time limited), or you could remove the time limit all together, what do you guys think?**

So please, can we have some RFC Europe mod makers (who aren't already involved in the conversation) come and give there opinion on my two UP ideas (for Poland and Cordoba), thank you

I'll check in tomorrow, around the same time (I was busy at lunch today, hopefully perhaps tomorrow)
:)
 
just wanted to say that I think we can all agree that the most tolerant nation in Europe at the time was Cordoba
No, we certainly cannot all agree on that statement.
1) It is not very specific (specific time period to which you refer?).
2) You have had several people tell you they see it differently than you, and several agree with you.
That is hardly all of us agreeing.

Please specify the actual time period that you are specifically addressing, when you said "at the time". Maybe you mentioned a certain period in a previous post, but I would like to see which period you are actually referring to.

For the record...
I also love the comment "more tolerant than the empires in the middle east", as if they were known for being tolerant? Come on. I know I am biased, but clearly you are too. I have seen at least 50 posts where you push for more power for either the Cordobans, Arabs, or Turks... it's almost constant, in fact.
And, I am sorry, please stop repeating the fallacious logic of, they were the most tolerant at the time, so they should have that as their unique power. If they were slightly less archaic and intolerant than other places, that doesn't make them tolerant. It is completely off base to have that be their UP, and would really take away from the game.

Perhaps the Power of Taxation would be more realistic, where they get extra income % from cities with Christianity or Judaism...
I do agree their current UP doesn't really help them much.
 
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