RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[Ekolite]

I think it would weaken the religious warfare dynamic in the area if any Iberian civ had benefits from other religions but their state religion. Gameplay comes first and it would be a bad decision for gameplay.

 

[Issos]

I'm kinda tired of this licitation on "who's more tolerant", seems that my arguments just flow into the void.

I'll just say few things about gameplay.

1.

I think it would weaken the religious warfare dynamic in the area if any Iberian civ had benefits from other religions but their state religion. Gameplay comes first and it would be a bad decision for gameplay.

2. Cordoba has chance to get (apart from islam) jewish and catholic religions spread in their cities. Let's be honest - orthodox, if spreads there, should be fixed. Also, just for few turns before winning UHV, some protestansts.

3. Poland gets all of them (agree- few muslims), and has to deal with protestants for most time of completing the UHVs.

4. Those UHVs involve invaiding regions that are not included in their stab maps, Poland will have too much problems with stability if it tries to mantain religiuos diversity (another UHV) in it's cities in the meantime without that UP.

 

[kochman]

I think it would weaken the religious warfare dynamic in the area if any Iberian civ had benefits from other religions but their state religion. Gameplay comes first and it would be a bad decision for gameplay.

Not really, as the other than state religions would still create instability, and diplomatic relations would still be effected.
Also, they could code in something like a desire to "reconquest" or "jihad" places that a country has lost to a foreign power with a different religion.

 

[civ_king]

how about Poland keeps its UP and Cordoba gets March on all units, far more useful than Medic one, because medic doesn't stack and if it did it would be overpowered

 

[The Turk]

Ok, this is what I propose we do with the UP's, this way everyone wins! Both the Poles and the Cordobans

Cordoba
Unique Power of (Religious) Tolerance
For every non state religion present in a city, the Cordobans get +1 happiness and +5 scientific output

Notes:
I think the happiness gain is good and balanced, but I kind of made up how much scientific output the Cordobans could gain, is +5 to much or too little, perhaps +10?

Poland
Unique Power of Immigration:
Between X year and Y year, Poland gains people from different parts of Europe

Notes:
Basically ripped this one from RFC USA UP. Basically Issos, has been saying that many people migrated to Poland as it was one of the only Christian ""Liberal"" nation in Europe at that time, and he said it lasted from X year to Y year (sorry forgot the dates). I was thinking that we could probably also tack on another bonsus, since its time limited, or just remove the time limit altogether, what do you guys think?

@Ekolite
I am SO happy you've started to respond . Can you tell me what you think about the two new UP's Thanks!

PS Also I don't think that would 'weaken' religious warfare, I mean why would it, if the Cordobans state religion is still Islam, by the way, I think they should start off with more Imams, when they spawn, or they should spawn imams around the year 1085, which was the time of the Almoravid invasion, (they were very religiously astute/ VERY intolerant at the beginning)

 

[Duke of Awesome]

i just want to say about an attempted Norse UHV that i failed (couldnt get to explore all the ocean tiles in time) no religon spread to me until 10something and when it DID spread to me it was orthodoxy not catholicism. shouldnt there be an event or something to simulate the missionary work done there? also i think a similar problem occurs with Bulgaria since i very often see it catholic instead of orthodox

 

[The Turk]

Duke of Awesome I am SO happy you just said that!!

YES! I believe, that there should be events in time, during the game, when missionaries spawn. If you notice in my last response, towards the end of it, I talked about Imams spawning for the Cordobans, and in previous posts I have strongly urged the modders to add missionary spawns for the previously pagan Russian countries (spreading Orthodox Christianity) and also for the Norse and English as well, there DEFINITELY should be some missionaries that spawn in these areas, because historically thats how they spread, through early European Missionaries, so EVEN if you have to slow down the automatic religious spread of religion in the game, I would much prefer if you instead add spawning missionaries to represent real religious missions, (plus I've provided the dates in previous posts, I can supply them again).

Now got to get back to work, because my co-worker across from me is giving strange looks, probably thinking I am typing so fast and enthusiastically

PS. Couldn't let the moment go, 5-5-5 posts!!

 

[Issos]

Ok, this is what I propose we do with the UP's, this way everyone wins! Both the Poles and the Cordobans

No. Please read my last post, Turk.

Ignoring samone else posts is not effective way of discussing, is it? (Of course if You wish to discuss, not just push your own opinion)

 

[wolfigor]

Ok, this is what I propose we do with the UP's, this way everyone wins! Both the Poles and the Cordobans

Cordoba
Unique Power of (Religious) Tolerance
For every non state religion present in a city, the Cordobans get +1 happiness and +5 scientific output

Notes:
I think the happiness gain is good and balanced, but I kind of made up how much scientific output the Cordobans could gain, is +5 to much or too little, perhaps +10?

I don't think it's a good idea.
The happiness bonus has no reason to be there, and it will help too much for stability: historically Cordoba collapsed just after 1000AD and it's important that in most of the games Cordoba follows it's history.
If Cordoba doesn't collapse the AI controlled Spain will never be able to unify the Iberian Peninsula under its rule.

+5 science is already big enough as a bonus... we want good gameplay not pushing some kind of politic agenda in the game.

Poland
Unique Power of Immigration:
Between X year and Y year, Poland gains people from different parts of Europe

How do you justify this?
In first historically immigration into Poland was NOT such a huge flow of people as in USA... in the posts we were talking about some small numbers of immigrants moving into Poland to escape persecution elsewhere, not a huge movement.

Second, one of UHV targets of Poland (if it didn't change) is properly to have the largest population: a UP that directly effects it, is too powerful and reduce the fun to play the Civ.

No. Please read my last post, Turk.

Ignoring samone else posts is not effective way of discussing, is it? (Of course if You wish to discuss, not just push your own opinion)

completely agree with Issos: ignoring posts is not a way to have a good dialogue.



Another point I strongly agree with Issos is that the "tolerance" UP would be much more useful for gameplay to Poland.
Poland in the game almost always receives Ortodox, Catholic, and some Protestant.
The "tolerance" UP make some historical sense (as much as for Cordoba and several others), it positively effects gameplay, and helps the AI to don't collapse too early.

 

[wolfigor]

Duke of Awesome I am SO happy you just said that!!

YES! I believe, that there should be events in time, during the game, when missionaries spawn. If you notice in my last response, towards the end of it, I talked about Imams spawning for the Cordobans, and in previous posts I have strongly urged the modders to add missionary spawns for the previously pagan Russian countries (spreading Orthodox Christianity) and also for the Norse and English as well, there DEFINITELY should be some missionaries that spawn in these areas, because historically thats how they spread, through early European Missionaries, so EVEN if you have to slow down the automatic religious spread of religion in the game, I would much prefer if you instead add spawning missionaries to represent real religious missions,

I'm rather against scripting too much, it's not too nice to have too deterministic flow of the game.
In terms of directly spreading Catholicism, there is already Rome actively doing it.
Once a civ opens its borders, the Pope send missionaries, build churches, and so on.

Anyway, in general, the automatic spread of religions across trade routes does represents exchange of ideas and missionaries.

(plus I've provided the dates in previous posts, I can supply them again).

Dates of "conversions" of monarchs and stuff like that badly represents the real spread of religions.
Scandinavian countries got Christianity very late and it was a thin layer on top of a well rooted paganism.
Same applies to early times in eastern Europe (Russia mostly) too.

 

[kochman]

Well, here is my final post on the subject.
Giving Cordoba a UP that is not historically accurate, but makes the Turk happy (and his constant stream of how to increase the power of already powerful islamic nations in the game), is not the proper way to go with this mod.

Perhaps I speak for myself in saying such a UP would make me lose interest in this mod, which until now, has been the coolest mod available on this site. However, I doubt that I am alone in such an opinion.

 

[Duke of Awesome]

I'm rather against scripting too much, it's not too nice to have too deterministic flow of the game.
In terms of directly spreading Catholicism, there is already Rome actively doing it.
Once a civ opens its borders, the Pope send missionaries, build churches, and so on.

Anyway, in general, the automatic spread of religions across trade routes does represents exchange of ideas and missionaries.

how does the pope send missionaries if its surrounded by independents that i rarely see get conquered? ive seen the pope give me gold and build catholic buildings but ive never seen him convert a city. in fact in my Norse game i previously mentioned i sent a galley into the Mediterranean just so i could find the Pope and he never converted any of my cities (and yes i had open borders)

 

[wolfigor]

how does the pope send missionaries if its surrounded by independents that i rarely see get conquered? ive seen the pope give me gold and build catholic buildings but ive never seen him convert a city. in fact in my Norse game i previously mentioned i sent a galley into the Mediterranean just so i could find the Pope and he never converted any of my cities (and yes i had open borders)

the spread of religion follows trade routes.
If you don't have trade routes active then religion will not spread: this is valid for the Pope too.
With Viking you can reach Rome and get open borders, but still there is no active trade route between you and them.
Historically Scandinavia started "getting" christianity around year 1000, however populations started to get consistently converted only in 13th century (Sami got converted only in 18th century).... Well... 74% of Norwegian are atheist today.
I know you would love to get Christianity and join the "club" as early as possible... but that's one of the problems to play the Norse: you are playing the bloody, fearsome, and aggressive Vikings.
Go and pillage, burn monasteries: that's the good day job of a well mannered viking.

 

[civ_king]

Wait, I thought they demanded money or pillaged you, they didn't give people the choice? And I thought Scandinavians managed decent trading empires?


EDIT: I was the Norse and converted to Protestantism during the Reformation and now Damascus is no longer the holy city, but the Masjid al-Haram is still there

 

[Duke of Awesome]

well that was the problem. i only got Orthodoxy after i got castles and thus my first trade routes. also i had some games where Damascus wasnt the holy city but Sour was

 

[The Turk]

well that was the problem. i only got Orthodoxy after i got castles and thus my first trade routes. also i had some games where Damascus wasnt the holy city but Sour was

Ya I have had that problem, where either Rome stops being the holy city of Christianity, or Damascus stops being the holy city of Islam. (PS. I think it would be better to have The Grand Ummayad Mosque as the Islamic Holy building, rather than the Ka'aba spawning their).


Ok so, to back up my claim, about the UP problem, I noticed that:

a. Hungary still has the "power of tolerance" (but that's going to be changed right?)

b. Poland has the UP of "Golden Liberty", I mean isn't that enough? They already get a whooping 10% research boom (which I think is just wrong, I can't think of many Polish inventions, Copernicus an exception), not to mention they have +1 happiness (spelt wrong in game). So why can't they stick with that, I think thats a more appropriate name for their UP, isn't that good enough?
I would instead make the Polish UP something like this:

UP of Golden Liberty:
+1 happiness and greater stability per city

Notes:
That way, Poland, which should last quite long, can get a stability boost, and get a happiness boost at the same time. And you should remove the 10% research boost, because Poland was never a scientific powerhouse, as much as Cordoba was during its high point, or even I could imagine, France or England being.

c. The Cordoban UP SUCKS, so why not just give them the UP of Religious Tolerance, and you guys said the way I put it was too "powerful", so why not do this:

UP of Religious Tolerance:
+5 research points and +1 Happiness per non-state religion

Notes:
I think this UP is better balanced en par with the rest of the other civ UP's

Other Notes:
1. Cordoba should spawn in 711 AD, rather than 712 (not a big problem, but for the sake of historical accuracy)

2. The Cordoban UB, the Noria, is exactly the same as the Polish Folwark. I would give for one of them, instead of storing 25% of food after growth, why not give the city that makes it +2 food. Doesn't that sound much better

3. The Bulgarians are REALLY overpowered, the Byzantines should be able to check them in place, (and vassalize them even), just like they did in actual history, but I think you guys are working on weakening them, right? Because more power needs to go to Austria and Hungary, so that the Ottomans don't go on a bloody rampage into Europe, so quickly.

4. The Temple Mount wonder is a bit silly. No civilization ever converts to Judaism, and the Temple Mount, is a special quarter inside of Jerusalem. So unless it can only be built in Jerusalem, I think its quite silly to have others be able to build it. So why not instead of a type of "Jewish Community Building", (make it a national wonder as well) it could do something like this:

+2 unhappiness, but 5% research (is that small enough)

Plus you could keep the same textures

5. Research NEEDS to be slower, the game progresses too too fast, therefore each tech needs to be worth more research points, to slow EVERYONE down.

6. The special ability for Westiminister Abby, is kind of ridiculous, why does it enable ALL labour civics? Instead of enabling all labour civics, it should give +1 happiness per city, to represent the final resting place of most of the Monarchs in that civilization.

7. Although I know that the Mongols do a good job at hurting Russia and the Middle East (although I think there should be more Keshiks), there should be keshik's spawning near the Poland/Hungarian border, because as we all know they were able to rout and destroy the Polish army. But since they never fully took control of Poland/Hungary, there probably should be less of them spawning there, but I think they should definitely be affected by the Keshik Horde

So please give my ideas some feedback, especially concerning the Polish/Cordoban UP's.

 

[AdrienIer]

IMO, a good way of making the Cordoban UP useful would be (as some people already proposed) to change the free promotion to march. That would make a good UP, and would avoid the 3 pages discussion on whether or not Cordoba was tolerant. I don't really know about Poland in-game, so I can't say about their UP, but if they have the same UB as Cordoba it should be changed.

 

[civ_king]

I noticed that the Portuguese AI could place the cities more optimally, IMO

Lisboa should be settled one south of pigs so it catches: Whale, Crab, Fish, Horse, Wine

they should also settle Faro which catches: Wine (same as Lisboa), Timber, Copper, Clams

finally Oporto one north of Apples catches Crabs, Apples, Wine and Iron

these three cities blanket Portugal quite well and use nearly all the resources

 

[AOS9001]

5. Research NEEDS to be slower, the game progresses too too fast, therefore each tech needs to be worth more research points, to slow EVERYONE down.

...

7. Although I know that the Mongols do a good job at hurting Russia and the Middle East (although I think there should be more Keshiks), there should be keshik's spawning near the Poland/Hungarian border, because as we all know they were able to rout and destroy the Polish army. But since they never fully took control of Poland/Hungary, there probably should be less of them spawning there, but I think they should definitely be affected by the Keshik Horde

So please give my ideas some feedback, especially concerning the Polish/Cordoban UP's.

I'm very hesitant to get involved about the whole religious tolerance thing (It's medieval times, everyone is a bad guy when it comes to this stuff), I do agree about the research. In three games (Spain, Byzantium, and Germany), I've been getting professional army by 1300. That's about 150-200 years early...

And I did notice in my Byzantium game, there was a small stack of Keshiks spawning in Hungary. Speaking of Bulgaria, I've found them extremely easy to crush within their initial spawning time. This may be due to the fact I haven't played above Viceroy in this mod though...

 

[civ_king]

I on Monarch (as Norse) found tech progress to be roughly on track ±50 years, until I converted to Protestantism at which point I (singlehandedly) finished the tech tree by ~1700, it isn't hard to get -40% on techs (Missionaries+Cathedrals+Belfries+Church+Schools+Seminary), in addition I got all of the colonies except one (Cuba)