RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[FakeShady]

5) Agreed; plus did that ACTUALLY ever happen in real life? The Pope giving away money and building churches?

i believe so...

8) I'm actually surprised you don't know this, considering the fact that you claim to know more about Byzantine history than I do, but you should know that the Byzantines were shipping Turks over to the European side (across the Bosporus) to use them in their own armies and to counter barbarians, thus starting the Turkification of the Balkans.

They're Byzantine mercenaries, the Ottomans back then. They were hired as mercenaries, to help some Byzantine king with his civil war. What if the Byzantines in the game didnt need/hire mercenaries? Thats more than just an army btw, thats a crazy amount of soldiers. And more often than not their first target is Constantinople, so how on earth do they represent Byzantine mercenaries? You tell me lol.

As for the huge Ottoman army, I think if you increase pressure of the Seljuk Turks on the Byzantines, the Ottoman army should be decreased, but I would like to stress more the decrease in settlers, the Ottomans really don't need any settlers anyway.

Thank you!!! I sure am glad we can finally agree on something. I think we would both agree we wanna see a muslim Anatolia, a not so helpless Byzantium and a not too powerful Ottoman Turks, agree?

 

[3Miro]

4) Slow down the tech rate. Its about time someone move Protestantism back to Printing Press, timed to be founded around 1500?

What game are you playing? Protestantism is founded with the Printing Press and it is timed for 1517. It is no listed on the Tech screen since the code is in Python and the AI often times ignores the Printing Press until much later.

 

[FakeShady]

What game are you playing? Protestantism is founded with the Printing Press and it is timed for 1517. It is no listed on the Tech screen since the code is in Python and the AI often times ignores the Printing Press until much later.

errr beta 8, last i checked. ohhhhhhhhhh i see. Germany always founds Protestantism around 1500, so i assumed they reached Industrial Revolution already, my bad

 

[Veshta]

Was the tech trade change still being implemented or at least tried? Kind of sad to start a game with the late spawners and all major players having the same techs with very little variation.

 

[FakeShady]

Was the tech trade change still being implemented or at least tried? Kind of sad to start a game with the late spawners and all major players having the same techs with very little variation.

Seconded, very very seconded. As Austria, which isnt very late, i am already seriously lagging behind. Thats not to say all late spawners is techonologically behind though

 

[3Miro]

About the Ottomans:

Historically, Constantinople was the last thing to fall on the Balkans, the Ottomans had everything else and kept it for some time. However, unlike the real Ottomans and the Human player, the AI cannot transfer troops between Asia and Europe without a land connection. This we have a limited set of options:

- If the Ottomans start without anything on the Balkans, then they will have to fight their way trough Constantinople (the city would be the first thing to fall). As a Human, it would be very easy to hold off the invasion since you could use the Theodosian walls.

- The Ottomans can start with only a large army in Europe, then Constantinople or Adrianopolis would be their first target. Even if Adrianopolis is the first target, Constantinople would have to be the second. Both cities would fall ahistorically early, but it does give the Ottomans a weapon against the Human.

- What I think is the best solution: move the Ottoman start to around 1350AD (conquest of Adrianopolis). Keep everything else on the start "as it is right now". Constantinople would still fall around 1400AD, but this is not as ahistoric.

 

[The Turk]

Ok, here is my suggestion for the Turks:
1. Up the Seljuk Turk Pressure/Barb pressure in general, and have them target the interior of Anatolia.
2. Move their start date to 1326, when they ACTUALLY conquered Bursa, and established themselves as a real power in Western Anatolia. NO settlers
3. Have an army spawn on the other side of the Bosporus in 1347, the year the Byzantine Emperor John gave them permission to make raids against Bulgarians and Byzantine enemies of the Emperor.
4. (OPTIONAL) Have the Ottomans move their capital from Bursa to Adrianople (Edrine) once they capture it, and then move it to Constantinople afterwords.
Tell me what you think
By the way, how are the Janissaries represented in this game? As I believe the Janissaries were a lot more famous and unique than stereotypical "Great Bombards".

 

[3Miro]

Ok, here is my suggestion for the Turks:
1. Up the Seljuk Turk Pressure/Barb pressure in general, and have them target the interior of Anatolia.
2. Move their start date to 1326, when they ACTUALLY conquered Bursa, and established themselves as a real power in Western Anatolia. NO settlers
3. Have an army spawn on the other side of the Bosporus in 1347, the year the Byzantine Emperor John gave them permission to make raids against Bulgarians and Byzantine enemies of the Emperor.
4. (OPTIONAL) Have the Ottomans move their capital from Bursa to Adrianople (Edrine) once they capture it, and then move it to Constantinople afterwords.
Tell me what you think
By the way, how are the Janissaries represented in this game? As I believe the Janissaries were a lot more famous and unique than stereotypical "Great Bombards".

1. Yes with stronger Byzantium we should strengthen the Seljuks.
2. Later spawn date was my suggestion too.
3. Army .... what if the Ottomans and the Byzantines sign peace by then? What if the Ottomans and/or Byzantines get destroyed by then? The army spawn is best done with the flip mechanics. We can spawn the Ottomans in 1347 (which is only 7 turns after 1326) and then they will "flip" Adrianopolis around the correct date, plus the army that can go either vs Constantinople, Thessaloníki or anywhere in Bulgaria.
4. Moving capitals is something I have been thinking of, however, it is low priority since there so little difference (the there cities are right next to each other).

Janissaries are the Ottoman UP, although we should probably change that from draft to just plain "free units upon conquest of a city with Christians".

 

[FakeShady]

Ok, here is my suggestion for the Turks:
1. Up the Seljuk Turk Pressure/Barb pressure in general, and have them target the interior of Anatolia.
2. Move their start date to 1326, when they ACTUALLY conquered Bursa, and established themselves as a real power in Western Anatolia. NO settlers
3. Have an army spawn on the other side of the Bosporus in 1347, the year the Byzantine Emperor John gave them permission to make raids against Bulgarians and Byzantine enemies of the Emperor.
4. (OPTIONAL) Have the Ottomans move their capital from Bursa to Adrianople (Edrine) once they capture it, and then move it to Constantinople afterwords.
Tell me what you think
By the way, how are the Janissaries represented in this game? As I believe the Janissaries were a lot more famous and unique than stereotypical "Great Bombards".

So you're saying up the Seljuks, AND the Ottomans stay as strong? Well what did i expect, you're The Turk.

From a byzantine viewpoint, if theres nothing that can stop Ottomans from swallowing up 90% of your land when actually you're doing very well, then theres really no point in playing them.

EDIT: "Janissaries are the Ottoman UP, although we should probably change that from draft to just plain "free units upon conquest of a city with Christians". Seriously, MORE units? Byzantium is hopeless. Just add it a code that make Byzantium surrender once Ottomans spawn. Save the trouble.

what about the timurids? they should be kicking some ottoman ass real hard but they are just as weak

 

[ezzlar]

So you're saying up the Seljuks, AND the Ottomans stay as strong? Well what did i expect, you're The Turk.

From a byzantine viewpoint, if theres nothing that can stop Ottomans from swallowing up 90% of your land when actually you're doing very well, then theres really no point in playing them.

EDIT: "Janissaries are the Ottoman UP, although we should probably change that from draft to just plain "free units upon conquest of a city with Christians". Seriously, MORE units? Byzantium is hopeless. Just add it a code that make Byzantium surrender once Ottomans spawn. Save the trouble.

what about the timurids? they should be kicking some ottoman ass real hard but they are just as weak

This mod is rigged for Byzantine doom at ottoman spawn. Why are you so surprised when this is discussed?

When I play Byzantines I have no problems with the ottomans. Only they AI.

 

[FakeShady]

This mod is rigged for Byzantine doom at ottoman spawn. Why are you so surprised when this is discussed?

Yep i realized by now. Not surprised at all.

When I play Byzantines I have no problems with the ottomans. Only they AI.

REALLY? And how exactly do you prevent them from swallowing up like, all of yyour lands when you're actually doing quite well?

You guys know what. I give up. Theres no point replaying Byzantium 1000 times when no one hear cares about how well Byzantine is doing. Im not gonna defend that piece of sh!t anymore if people on the forum, well, meant it to be sh!t. If no one can be bothered about Byzantine feedback... well i guess neither can i.

To the Turk, well, guess you've won. You have far too much time and posts and insistence on your side, and whether u admit it or not your constant pro-middle-east posts has had a significant influence on the game. My spontaneous tendency to laugh at things i find hilarious didnt help me either. Still, well played dude

 

[Wessel V1]

Then please raise your player ability. If you cannot prepare an army before the Ottomans spawn and attack them, well, we're very sorry but we have to listen to more 'skillful' testers that say that Byzantium is strong. I mean, if someone says China is very weak in RFC, who would listen to him? With some thought Byzantium can be played very well into a powerciv. To be honest, I believe you are just too much based and frankly just trying to disagree with The Turk. Be honest to yourself, that is not the way you should use your undoubtly very valuable time. I don't mind if people don't have the skill needed to win the game, but then please listen to people that do have skill. Or for example, post a save game where you say: this is clearly wrong. Then we can decide whether it's a lack of style or an actual problem, because at this stage I believe that you are not contributing at all anymore. Believe me, I read any post in this forum.

 

[ezzlar]

When i think about it. Byzantium, norse, arabia and cordoba are all almost nearly scripted to collapse. That means they have to be somewhat unbalanced!

 

[The Turk]

Then please raise your player ability. If you cannot prepare an army before the Ottomans spawn and attack them, well, we're very sorry but we have to listen to more 'skillful' testers that say that Byzantium is strong.

word.

To be honest, I believe you are just too much based and frankly just trying to disagree with The Turk. Be honest to yourself, that is not the way you should use your undoubtly very valuable time.

Good not agree more. Thank You Wessel

@FakeShady
Just play on prince if you have a problem with the Byzantines. The ottomans should not be any problem then

When i think about it. Byzantium, norse, arabia and cordoba are all almost nearly scripted to collapse. That means they have to be somewhat unbalanced!

Byzantium: Collapsed 1453, although by then they were already reduced to ONLY Constantinople, while in this game the AI can still retain several cities in Anatolia and Greece
Norse: pre 10th century they were in rapid decline globally
Arabia (Abbasid Caliphate): 1258 AT LATEST; although after 850 they were in decline
Cordoba: 1039, Al-Andalus collapses into different taifa states, end of the Golden Age.

So why are they "almost" scripted to die away, hmmm... well here are a few suggestions
1) Because their UHV's are finished
2) Its historically accurate, and because of #1
3) They need to make room for another historical empire which is about to rise:
Byzantium: Ottomans; yes surprise surprise the Ottomans destroyed the Byzantines GET OVER IT.
Norse: Sweden; although they also respawn confined to Denmark/Norway which is good
Arabia: Crusaders, Ottomans, possible respawning in Egypt as an Egyptian Caliphate (Fatimid, Ayyubid, Mamluk)
Cordoba: Spain, Portugal and the respawning of the Almoravid/Almohad and later Nasirid Empire's.

Hope that answers your complaint
---------------------------------------------

As for the Janissaries having free troops pop up, is a bit unfair I will say. But why not just have it so that you can draft 2 OR 3 units per turn, and in a Christian city you can make Janissaries, a kind of "new" Ottoman UU.

Tanja should start with Islam and Judaism (and perhaps Catholicism as well) should spread to Cordoba right after the city is founded. Like Judaism spreading to San'a in SoI

The Visigoths did not have horsearchers as which to attack the Cordobans with.

There should be an event in game, (like 1054 with the Great Schism between Orthodox and Catholic civ's) in 750 AD when the Arabs become hostile to the Cordobans, to represent the rise of the Abbasid Caliphate and the massacre of the Ummayad Caliphate leading Abd al-Rahman fleeing to Cordoba. In general post-750 AD the Arabs and Cordobans should be worst enemies.

Aquitania and Provence (which was ruled by the Caliphate of Cordoba for some time) should be a ok stability province for the Cordobans, seeing how far they conquered into France (up to Tours, and stopped in 732). You can look here or here for greater reference.
On that note Arabic for Tolos (Toulouse) is طلوشة; but as I cannot read Arabic, try to find someone who can make that into a phonetic name. Also for your information I got it from this very handy site, you may want to use later

Another fact is that the Cordobans should also get Oran and even perhaps Algiers (debatable) as an OK stability area

Whats the difference between an Islamic Madrassa and a "House of Wisdom"?

All "Church/Cathedral" type wonders REALLY should need their religion present in the city to build. For example building Notre Dame in Cordoba is ridiculous when it only has Islam and Judaism. The same goes for Muslim wonders.

 

[FakeShady]

Then please raise your player ability. If you cannot prepare an army before the Ottomans spawn and attack them, well, we're very sorry but we have to listen to more 'skillful' testers that say that Byzantium is strong. I mean, if someone says China is very weak in RFC, who would listen to him? With some thought Byzantium can be played very well into a powerciv. To be honest, I believe you are just too much based and frankly just trying to disagree with The Turk. Be honest to yourself, that is not the way you should use your undoubtly very valuable time. I don't mind if people don't have the skill needed to win the game, but then please listen to people that do have skill. Or for example, post a save game where you say: this is clearly wrong. Then we can decide whether it's a lack of style or an actual problem, because at this stage I believe that you are not contributing at all anymore. Believe me, I read any post in this forum.

Very well, since you think im biased and obviously doesnt get my point, i shall stop with all the Byzantine feedback and we shall see what becomes of Byzantium by Beta 10

 

[The Turk]

Very well, since you think im biased and obviously doesnt get my point, i shall stop with all the Byzantine feedback and we shall see what becomes of Byzantium by Beta 10

Thats great FakeShady, in fact if you could stop posting all unrelated posts here (a complete 180 degrees for you) I think we might actually get some good ideas into this mod, rather than having trolls control this thread with their petty complaints and arguments.

Moderator Action: Please don't flame other members.

 

[ezzlar]

Ah, it wasnt a complaint. It was more a reminder to testers why some civs feel unbalanced!

 

[3Miro]

Balance is something different in this Mod. We have two goals:

1. Without intervention form the Human, the AI should more often then not follow real history, at least to the extent allowed by the game engine and mechanics.

2. In the hands of the Human, all UHV conditions should be doable AND they should be challenging.

We have 1 done mostly right and we are slowly converging on 2. Once we have those complete, the mod will be Balanced.

Note: this is in no way different from standard RFC, try as Human Babylon to conquer Persia or India, or Human Egypt conquering Rome or the Dutch conquering Russia. Those are not "balanced" in the sense of "equal", but they are "balanced" in the sense of the two conditions above.

 

[FakeShady]

rather than having trolls control this thread with their petty complaints and arguments.

LOL talk about irony

 

[Ambassador]

On that note Arabic for Tolos (Toulouse) is طلوشة; but as I cannot read Arabic, try to find someone who can make that into a phonetic name.

It would be translated to Talusha or Taloosha.

Whats the difference between an Islamic Madrassa and a "House of Wisdom"?

Madrassa is a generic secondary school, essentially it only means "place of teaching". Beginning in the 11th century in Seljuq controlled Iran and Asia minor it was a place to study not only religious topics but also mathematics, logics, astronomy, grammar etc. Similar function to monastery but open to all.

House of wisdom is bait al-hikma in Arabic. It was a kind of university first founded by Abbasid caliph al-Mamun about 820 AD. The collection, translation and dispersion of Greek works on philosophy and sciences was its main task.