RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[AdrienIer]

It's fairly easy if you are an experienced player. I'm talking about casual players.

I would define myself as a casual player, and I agree that some of the uhv's are very hard even on viceroy (French 1rst uhv for example). But some are really doable (Germany for example is mainly a waiting game), and it doesn't bother me that much for some uhv's to be hard, since challenges are always interesting.

Your idea seems good, but is it really necessary ?

 

[merijn_v1]

Whatever you want, its your mod, I just call it as I see it. But I'm all open to having new mercenary textures. And I still don't understand your Orthodox Missionary excuse, you do realize you can have the new texture, and give it to everyone right? Anyway, it always the Eastern European player (Moscow, Kiev, Bulgaria, Byzantium, sometimes Hungary), and the texture would work for all of them. My concern is that a lot of the units look crappy, but if you think you need to work on something else, then so be it, but I'll be definetly looking forward to the reworked mercs!

I do realize that we can give the new orthodox missionary to all civs. But that would be even worse, because the new art only fits the Russian civs. If a non-Russian civ build an orthodox missionary and it looks like a russian units, it is realy bad. It's better to have a unit that fits all civs, than a better looking unit that only fits 2 civs. It looks like you think that the orthodox missionary is only for the Russian civs, but it isn't.

 

[Ambreville]

I would define myself as a casual player, and I agree that some of the uhv's are very hard even on viceroy (French 1rst uhv for example). But some are really doable (Germany for example is mainly a waiting game), and it doesn't bother me that much for some uhv's to be hard, since challenges are always interesting.

Your idea seems good, but is it really necessary ?

Having a choice is always a good thing. Being able to snag those nearly-impossible UHV's on Viceroy would be a good way to introduce the game to new players. Once the game sinks in, I would think people would migrate to the normal level of difficulty and play the game as it was intended.

The question remains: is it actually possible modify UHV's based on the chosen level of difficulty?

 

[3Miro]

Having a choice is always a good thing. Being able to snag those nearly-impossible UHV's on Viceroy would be a good way to introduce the game to new players. Once the game sinks in, I would think people would migrate to the normal level of difficulty and play the game as it was intended.

The question remains: is it actually possible modify UHV's based on the chosen level of difficulty?

What part of the UHV do you want to modify? There are few things that I cannot add/modify, the question is what to modify and why.

Take the French UHV for example, on Viceroy you get cheaper units, so it should be easier. We cannot change the timing of the UHV as it will conflict with the Burgundian and German spawn. The only other thing that we can do is to give couple of additional free Units (or another Settler).

It is possible to lower things like the Burgundian culture UHV or the Kiev food one, but this would also make it messier when you need to list the UHV.

Burgundy UHV: Accumulate a lot of culture.

And only when you start the game, do you see a number.

This doesn't look like an elegant solution.

 

[Ambreville]

What part of the UHV do you want to modify? There are few things that I cannot add/modify, the question is what to modify and why.

Take the French UHV for example, on Viceroy you get cheaper units, so it should be easier. We cannot change the timing of the UHV as it will conflict with the Burgundian and German spawn. The only other thing that we can do is to give couple of additional free Units (or another Settler).

It is possible to lower things like the Burgundian culture UHV or the Kiev food one, but this would also make it messier when you need to list the UHV.

Burgundy UHV: Accumulate a lot of culture.

And only when you start the game, do you see a number.

This doesn't look like an elegant solution.

I'm not going to pitch in details willy-nilly on how to do this, since it has not been established as of yet that the coding for alternate UHV's is indeed doable/practical. If not, then why bother?

Coming up with alternate UHV's requires a lot of thinking and playtesting--I would think it to be a project of its own. Have you guys run a poll about the ease of accomplishing each UHV for each Civ (at viceroy)? Part of the trouble with this approach is making sure there is a good sampling of answers from both casual and experienced players (perhaps separate polls?)

Your last point demonstrates what I suspected would get in the way of alternate UHV's (separate text entries). I'm sure other issues will come up to make a coder's life hover somewhere between challenging and miserable!

 

[Opera]

The text wouldn't be a problem, simply use the value for Monarch difficulty, as it is the default one. In vanilla, game speed and other stuff change the beakers needed for a tech and the prod needed for units & all but you don't see "a lot of hammers", you see the value for the default speed.

 

[3Miro]

Ambreville, we would love to make a game that s well balanced for three difficulty levels, but I don't think this is feasible. We balance Monarch and Monarch only. Once the game has reached a more "complete" stage, we can add some units to Viceroy France or artificially give Burgundy extra culture points (say start at 5000 instead of 0) or something like that. We will not do global things like special code for the different names and playtesting.

I don't think you can come up with a meaningful poll for Viceroy as people are supposed to play the game on Monarch and only a few players would chose Viceroy.

If you have trouble and you feel like playing around, you can use the WorldBuilder to give yourself some extra units with France to see would be the minimum needed to make the French UHV easy (on Viceroy). Something like 3 - 4 Swordsman or an extra settler or something like that.

 

[Ambreville]

Ambreville, we would love to make a game that s well balanced for three difficulty levels, but I don't think this is feasible. We balance Monarch and Monarch only. Once the game has reached a more "complete" stage, we can add some units to Viceroy France or artificially give Burgundy extra culture points (say start at 5000 instead of 0) or something like that. We will not do global things like special code for the different names and playtesting.

I don't think you can come up with a meaningful poll for Viceroy as people are supposed to play the game on Monarch and only a few players would chose Viceroy.

If you have trouble and you feel like playing around, you can use the WorldBuilder to give yourself some extra units with France to see would be the minimum needed to make the French UHV easy (on Viceroy). Something like 3 - 4 Swordsman or an extra settler or something like that.

OK then, it sounds like the mod will remain entirely an elitist's mod. Too bad.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the French UHV in your responses to me. I don't believe I have mentioned any specific civ in my posts. My suggestion stems from a conversation with a friend whom I attempted to introduce to the mod. He thought the UHV's were way over his head, and moved on to another game. That was unfortunate to say the least.

 

[Ambreville]

On a different note, I ran into a couple things when I tried the game.

I thought I remembered something about the Protestant religion not getting a "holy city". There was one in this latest release. Is it intended?

I also ran the Swedes when they showed up (I switched from the Genoese). I noticed all Swedish units ended up with a cavalry promotion, including ships and workers. That's got to be a bug.

 

[rock_star]

The UHV goals are a huge part of what makes the game so fun, and they're usually the only way to win - stability makes Domination or Conquest out of the question for most players, so wins by points or UVHs are the best options for winning. Still, some of the UHV goals will absolutely be over a casual player's head. Ta,e Byzantium, for instance - will a casual player know that the last goal pretty much requires them to kill Venice and Genoa? A casual player will probably get frustrated with just how badly stacked the deck is against the ERE - terrible stability, barbs, Arabs, Bulgarians, Italian attacks & the 4th crusade, early extra (Justinian's) plague, Seljuks, Mongols, Ottomans & slow research & production . . . all diverting precious resources from focusing on UHV goals.

However, even a casual player should know to expect some of these things to happen (assuming they have a basic knowledge of history which usually accompanies desire to play this game). The reference folder contains info on these events, but a casual player will probably not realise the folder even exists.

However, we can easily guide the casuals at RC stage the way RFC and SOI do - with a strong strategy wiki. At the beta stage, it's tough to do this, as a goal may change with each release, but at RC stage a thread could easily be made and managed to help out the stumped casual player. Post a loading screen hint or two about the strategy guide's site and some mentions in the civilopedia, and we'll make sure the casuals stand a chance.

 

[Duke of Awesome]

The UHV goals are a huge part of what makes the game so fun, and they're usually the only way to win - stability makes Domination or Conquest out of the question for most players, so wins by points or UVHs are the best options for winning. Still, some of the UHV goals will absolutely be over a casual player's head. Ta,e Byzantium, for instance - will a casual player know that the last goal pretty much requires them to kill Venice and Genoa? A casual player will probably get frustrated with just how badly stacked the deck is against the ERE - terrible stability, barbs, Arabs, Bulgarians, Italian attacks & the 4th crusade, early extra (Justinian's) plague, Seljuks, Mongols, Ottomans & slow research & production . . . all diverting precious resources from focusing on UHV goals.

However, even a casual player should know to expect some of these things to happen (assuming they have a basic knowledge of history which usually accompanies desire to play this game). The reference folder contains info on these events, but a casual player will probably not realise the folder even exists.

However, we can easily guide the casuals at RC stage the way RFC and SOI do - with a strong strategy wiki. At the beta stage, it's tough to do this, as a goal may change with each release, but at RC stage a thread could easily be made and managed to help out the stumped casual player. Post a loading screen hint or two about the strategy guide's site and some mentions in the civilopedia, and we'll make sure the casuals stand a chance.

when i first played as the Byzantines (about 10 Betas ago ) i didnt know about the Seljuks and was completely and utterly ransacked by them. it was very disconcerting.

 

[civ_king]

We need a good civilopedia

 

[Wessel V1]

Most players who play this mod aren't casual players. Casual players usually play the regular or the extended (RoM / FfH) version of the latest version of a game, which is Civ 5. We are a mod that is partially based on RFC, which I wouldn't consider hardcore but not so casual either, and a mod based on a specific historical setting. So, the average player we can expect to find the mod is either a fan of history or a player that has played Civ so often that he wants to try something else. Casual players who find this mod by accident should take a look at strategy guides that explain them what to do and what not to do. These guides don't exist yet, because of the rapid speed of changes each beta. However, because this mod now reaches the final stages, I think there should be a strategy guide thread where people can post their notes and tricks.

 

[The Turk]

Most players who play this mod aren't casual players. Casual players usually play the regular or the extended (RoM / FfH) version of the latest version of a game, which is Civ 5. We are a mod that is partially based on RFC, which I wouldn't consider hardcore but not so casual either, and a mod based on a specific historical setting. So, the average player we can expect to find the mod is either a fan of history or a player that has played Civ so often that he wants to try something else. Casual players who find this mod by accident should take a look at strategy guides that explain them what to do and what not to do. These guides don't exist yet, because of the rapid speed of changes each beta. However, because this mod now reaches the final stages, I think there should be a strategy guide thread where people can post their notes and tricks.

Agreed, I don't think the UHV's are that hard at all to achieve (most of them at least, Norse are still a pain). If anything the barbs can get tougher and unit production needs to be dramatically slowed down for some heavy units. And I agree, once all the game features are included, then the game can be made easier, but only till then.

 

[3Miro]

OK then, it sounds like the mod will remain entirely an elitist's mod. Too bad.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the French UHV in your responses to me. I don't believe I have mentioned any specific civ in my posts. My suggestion stems from a conversation with a friend whom I attempted to introduce to the mod. He thought the UHV's were way over his head, and moved on to another game. That was unfortunate to say the least.

Many people seem to struggle with the French UHV, that is why I bring it up as an example. The comment from your friend "UHVs are too hard" is useless to us as he doesn't specify which ones in particular and why he thinks they are too hard. Maybe he just doesn't like civilization and he is looking for an excuse, especially since he has moved to another game and not another mod.

On other stuff: the Protestants do get a Holy City like everyone else. There is no change.

We give all Swedish units the Formation promotion as it will be hard to specify individual units. The promotion only affects land units anyway, so it is not a problem.

 

[Opera]

Why not use a regular trait? You can specify the unitclasses, iirc.

 

[civ_king]

Could we add a boost to farms in the Mid-High Middle Ages to represent major agricultural innovations?

 

[3Miro]

Why not use a regular trait? You can specify the unitclasses, iirc.

This is an issue that I have on my list, but it is way to the bottom. The current situation is nothing but cosmetics, it has no effect on the gameplay.

 

[MrBanana]

The way the reformation works bugs me. I hate when countries accept the reformation but then convert right back to Catholicism before 5 turns are up, and not taking account for diplomacy.

I think the reformation should work like a normal religion change. Plus it would make sense: the turn of anarchy does fit.

Also: Arabia often becomes a vassal of France or another strong country, and it gets insane when they are the strongest nation and they are a vassal of a weak France.

 

[Opera]

About the Reformation, it's been some time since I played until it triggers so I'm not sure, is there a choice to remove all catholicism and replace it with protestantism? Or is it what happens if you choose to accept the Reformation? I remember having a lot of cities with both catholicism and protestantism at some point.