RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

The problem is them loosing Constantinople, not Thrace and Greece. Basicly the Slavs migrated in, refused to pay taxes, and Byzantium lost control over the area. Soon after the Bulgars subdued the Slavs. A failed Byzantine campaign lost almost all of their European holdings bar Italy.
 
IIRC the Byzantines start with Spearman in Constantinople but the AI would usually disband it since there is no eminent treat.

(the word subdue may not be the most accurate description of Slavic-Bulgar relations, but other than that you are right. Also, Byzantines had many failed campaigns against Bulgaria, not just one.)
 
There were actualy very few campaigns of note against Bulgaria, there was the one by Nikephoras I where he was ambushed in a pass and killed, the expedition by Irene against the slavs in greece, and the one by Basil II. There were very few MAJOR campaigns against Bulgaria. Most were just cross border raiding or the troops of a singe theme or two. The majority of the major campaigns were directed against the Muslims because the Muslims were a bigger threat, Bulgaria couldnt get past Constantinople. Bulgaria did make many attacks into Byzantium, such as the battle against Krum where Leo and half the army fled and Nikephoras and Bardas Phokas in response to Simeon.
 
Depends on what you call major campaign. Call it a campaign designed not to just raid the borders and particular towns and fortresses, but a campaign designed to destroy Bulgaria.

Constantine IV in 680 in the very beginning had a failed campaign and there was at least one other attempt in the period of political instability following Khan Tervel's death.Depending on how you count Simeon's campaigns you can get 5 - 6 major ones in a period of less than 350 years. Byzantines lost all of them (Basil won with treason and great diplomacy, not military). I am not sure that the Arabs were a bigger treat on the Byzantine empire.
 
I consider a major campaign one of the yearly campaigns sent our by the emperor and an expedition into enemy territory. The majority of Byzantine military actions against the bulgars were defensive actions. Basil did more with military strategy and the slow advance, not the lightning campaigns that other emperors had done, it left them too open to being ambushed.
The arabs were a bigger threat for 2 reasons, 1)they could raid anatolia the heartland of the empire and they very nearly took Constantinople once and 2) they had a navy while Bulgaria didnt. this meant that they had the capabilities to take Constantinople. Bulgaria had little siege technology and no navy. That meant they couldnt blockade Constantinople and to assault it they would have to attack the massive land walls that were only breached by the ottomans. (all other attacks that took the city were either by the sea walls or by subterfuge.)
 
I guess our definition of the hearth land of the Byzantines differs. Bulgaria was a treat to Greece and the Arabs to Anatolia. The only time the Arabs mounted a good siege on Constantinople they were stopped by no other than the Bulgars. The strongest of the Bulgarians, Tzar Simeon, could not capture Constantinople because the Arabs refused to help him with their navy (Khan Tervel could have captured it, he was satisfied with a political marriage that fell apart in later years and Khan Krum had the siege engines build, he died the winter before he could lead the army against Constantinople). History is so intermingled that I don't think we can definitely give an answer to who was the bigger treat (that is the biggest treat before the ottomans).
 
Hey guys - I just decided to check this out, after spending several days working with RAND. I played one game, as the Franks, to about 1200 CE.

My initial impression was that calling this an RFC variation is a little bit strong. The two main relations to RFC are the staggered civ starts and the UHVs (and I don't really like UHVs). I was able to expand to having a several-city empire quickly without crippling myself. It played more like a normal Civ4 BTS game. This isn't really a bad thing, and if it's what you're aiming for, then fantastic.

The independent cities didn't put up much of a fight. I noticed that they did a lot of worker improvements, but I managed to take Tours, Calais, and Bordeaux with just two city-attacking axemen. Toulouse was a bit tougher.

Since there was a new tech tree, I went with the path of least resistance - what techs looked useful that I could get right away? With that, I found myself with buildings that only let me get Great People as Merchants or Prophets. I had two huge cities, Paris and Calais, that each got two GP, all Merchants. This gave me lots and lots of revenue, which fueled more and more expansion. I never really felt threatened, where RFC or RAND generally have me feel like I'm on a tightrope the entire game.

But the map is huge. RFC and especially RAND are good for having large maps that are playable on older computers. My computer was not doing well even so early in the game.
 
A couple of quick notes. I played two quick games as France, England and Genoa. France seemed more balanced and Burgundy is holding its own. In the first game (France then England), Spain had taken most of the south of France, in the 2nd Cordoba pretty much dominated Iberia. On both games Germany seemed to be doing better as well. As England, conquering Britain and Ireland was too easy - a few barbs in Wales and a stronger Edinburgh & Dublin might help.

Venice was also tamer, and as the game progressed it started to slip except it was a cultural behemoth. Rome collapsed in my second game (not sure why). Next time I play as Genoa I'll probably be razing Florence, it's far too predisposed to Venice.

Two general things: 1) in the diplomacy screen (where you see everybody and their relationships with each other), the temporary flag colors aren't displaying (eg Germany and Austria are the same, as are Poland and Russia and Genoa and Venice). 2) As Genoa all my mercenaries were showing up in the least convenient city available. Initally this was Ajaccio on Corsica (not the end of the world), but later they went to Caffa in the Crimea (actually, that is the end of the world), and so my UP didn't help me much in my wars with Burgundy.
 
Just did the long, long wait for the Dutch. Some notes...

1. Sweden spawns with no technologies. Big problem.
2. Protestantism spreads now, but no one converts to it because of the diplomatic pressure of having many Catholic neighbors. Venice had the Holy City in Florence, and more Austrian cities were Protestant than Catholic, but neither had converted. (Protestantism also had some presence in Germany and Burgundy, and of course Sweden was Protestant because they spawn with a missionary, I assume.)
3. Venice and Poland were way, way ahead of everyone else technologically. The "Big Four" were Venice, England, Poland and Bulgaria, but England and Bulgaria had high scores mostly because they had large empires. (Bulgaria had conquered the Kievans.)
4. Portugal was vassalized to Spain and had only built Lisbon and a second city two tiles away. Lagos, south of Lisbon, was controlled by Spain and apparently hadn't flipped (or was founded after Portugal spawned; neither should happen).
5. The Netherlands did not spawn with a Protestant missionary. Although this may be intended, they certainly should spawn with one if we want to encourage anyone at all to convert to Protestantism.
6. The Norse controlled Goteborg, which had not flipped to the Swedes on spawn. This hemmed in Sweden to the point where they would clearly have a rough time of it even if they had started with technologies.
7. The AI must hate attacking independents. The Arabs never penetrated Tunis, nor did the English conquer Dubh Linn (or settle Ireland at all). Barcino (Barcelona) was still independent.
 
Playing as Venice, reached 1242, to be continued. Doing pretty well, having built Venezia, Parma, and Firenze in mainland Italy, Fiume, Spalato, Durazzo and Corfu in Adriatic Coast, and Bastia in Corsica about some years ago (Genoans hadn't settled there yet?). It was Monarch, believe me :).
Some observations:
1) Vassals: Currently having two of them, Genoa and the Papal States :eek: . Didn't know the Papal State could be a vassal....
2) Papal State, vol.2: When built Durazzo and Corfu, a message appeared, asking me to pass control to the Pope. Kinda strange... (it was like the ''x city wants to return to its rightfully owner''. Logical for most civs, but for pope...)
3) Tech rate (revamped): Yes there is a change, it slowed down as it needed.
4) Other states state: Franks are the only collapsed, after finding themselves losing a war vs a Burgundian-Spanish alliance. Cordobans are the first, followed by Arabs, Byzantines, me, and Kyiv (I will tell you when Keshiks come... :evil: ). Burgundian is unstable as well as Byzantines (btw first time I see Burgundians build Besancon).
 
The next test version will take care of the Papal Vassal issue. I am not sure about liberating cities, the Pope should not have any culture in any tiles beyond the 5x5 around Rome and no city should request to be liberated to the Pope. I will see what I can do about it (probably not this test version).

I am currently looking into the Swedish spawn problem, it is probably some bug in the Python. It is helpful if I can get the PythonErr file right after the autorun sequence. I am trying to get it myself, but it naturally takes time (couple of hours).

The AI used to attack the Indies all the time. I don't know what changed.
 
Some independent cities are very unlikely to be conquered. Barcino, north African cities, Naples, Dubh Linh, usually independent for centuries. Also, the mods loads very very slowly. Whereas 25 minutes to load Arabia usually means 10 minutes, in RFCE it means 30 minutes. I've never bothered to load further than Turkey, Sweden must be absolutely disastrous.:eek:

Some notes about the UHVs:
- Some of them aren't really challenging. Even with the RFC timescale in my mind, setlling the Norse UHV areas is a piece of cake. Especially when I once again find out that 1 turn means only 3 years in stead of 10. I've had exactly one tiny moment of tension, when I wanted to reveal all ocean tiles before 1200 AD, and thus had to declare war on Cordoba. I understand that the player should be free to find many ways to get his goal, but now some of them aren't very challenging, on Monarch at least.
- Will the research penalty be (partially) removed in the next version? This keeps me from expanding, despite being very solid. Not that much of an issue, but still.
 
This week I started the Germans. They must have more units. I started with 5 and a few turns later the Burundians attacked me. I didn't want to start over so I put the 4 Paladins to another place. About 5 turns later they collapsed.
And in almost all my other games the Germans were destroyed in just a few turns.
 
merijn_v1 said:
This week I started the Germans. They must have more units. I started with 5 and a few turns later the Burundians attacked me. I didn't want to start over so I put the 4 Paladins to another place. About 5 turns later they collapsed.
And in almost all my other games the Germans were destroyed in just a few turns.
Click to expand...

The units part is undergoing a major update/change, so all starting units would probably change. If Germany starts next to a powerful Burgundy or Franks, then they need good defensive units.

It may be a good idea to make the starting units depending on the power of the immediate neighbors.
 
It may be a good idea to make the starting units depending on the power of the immediate neighbors.
Click to expand...

Do you mean that the rise code would look at neighbor's strength and dynamically adjust according?

BTW: I wanted to say thanks to everyone for the latest round of playtesting reports. Just because we haven't had a chance to respond/reply to each of you individually, don't think we aren't reading and considering your feedback very seriously. There's no way we have time to play enough games ourselves to develop this mod for fun and balance, so we're utterly reliant on you guys for help in this matter.
 
sedna17 said:
Do you mean that the rise code would look at neighbor's strength and dynamically adjust according?
Click to expand...

Yes that is what I mean. Have a fixed set of units for the spawn and then check on the power of Burgundy and Franks. If they are too powerful, give extra units to Germany even without a war on spawn. Otherwise, it opens the game for Human exploits (like China destroying Mongolia two turns after they spawn).
 
Two issues (currently testing Bulgarians)
1) When will the respawn thing reincluded?
2) When I captured Odrin and Solun, there was no resistance. Is it a bug???
EDIT: Another issue: While the France UHV area has changed, that change hasn't been passed to the reference file.
 
micbic said:
Two issues (currently testing Bulgarians)
1) When will the respawn thing reincluded?
2) When I captured Odrin and Solun, there was no resistance. Is it a bug???
EDIT: Another issue: While the France UHV area has changed, that change hasn't been passed to the reference file.
Click to expand...

I think respawn is included, just the ods for it are small.

For the no resistance: check the Bulgarian UP.
 
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