RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[3Miro]

Also, I moved London's capitol (i.e. starting spot) one square south in... probably the Jan 31st version, so I do think Just666 is probably using an old version. Still, a lot of the report is helpful, so thanks anyway.

In particular, I'm not concerned if Ireland becomes orthodox (we don't want perfectly deterministic religions). I am concerned that protestantism doesn't do nearly enough. I think we will probably implement something like "Protestantism in RFC" (link here) in order to more accurately represent the disruptive impact this should have.

One of the balancing knobs that I have not yet exposed to pythons is about the spread of religions. The probability that a religion is spreads in a city is modified by the type of religion and the city owner. Orthodoxy spreads fast in Bulgaria and the Russias, Islam in the Arabs and Turkey, Catholicism in Spain and so on. We could increase the Protestant spread rate (it is high for Sweden, Netherlands and England, but we could make it even higher). Also we could implement in python that as soon as Protestantism is founded, it spreads to many cities (as opposed to just the Holy City).

 

[Just666]

I tought I had the latest version becouse i downloaded it a week ago, but didn't know it updated so fast.

Unfortunatly i don't have a save-game becouse my research sucked and i couldn't get a city in france before 1500, so I didn't even bother to save...

I hope with the new modefication I can hold on to Calais next time

 

[jessiecat]

One of the balancing knobs that I have not yet exposed to pythons is about the spread of religions. The probability that a religion is spreads in a city is modified by the type of religion and the city owner. Orthodoxy spreads fast in Bulgaria and the Russias, Islam in the Arabs and Turkey, Catholicism in Spain and so on. We could increase the Protestant spread rate (it is high for Sweden, Netherlands and England, but we could make it even higher). Also we could implement in python that as soon as Protestantism is founded, it spreads to many cities (as opposed to just the Holy City).

Sounds like we'll need Protestantism sorted out as well as the Papal States before we can think about a beta version. And Judaism as well. Another big priority for that is completing the UHV conditions. I think we can fill the empty slots with "build 2 or 3 colonies" for now. Hopefully we can later fine-tune the UHVs once we've had more play-testing of the beta version. The only other major thing is adjusting the starting units and buildings for some civs, I think.

 

[sedna17]

Yeah, sorry about the fast update pace. Well, no, not sorry exactly, it's good we're making progress, it's just that we have a lot of things to work on still.

Calais will be hard-pressed on culture in the current version too. The rational is this:
If France doesn't go to war when England then spawns the UHV goal of Britain+Ireland and 1 city in France in 1600 is pretty easy (for a human). Even if France goes to war later, it's just not that hard to defend a single city against the AI. It makes things more interesting to need to balance culture and defensive buildings. If you want Calais to be a good city (not starved by Paris) there is incentive for the human player to actually carry on a war with France to capture/sack Paris or try to collapse France. This war is highly desirable.

 

[micbic]

Once again: There are not only the get x colonial projects UHVs to get done, it's also the control x resources (Burgundy, Venice, Kiev). Or there is a plan to replace them?

 

[Panopticon]

I'll help with any aspects of Protestantism if necessary. How does it currently work, in terms of foundation? How does it spread across Europe in theory, and how does it spread in practice?

 

[jessiecat]

Once again: There are not only the get x colonial projects UHVs to get done, it's also the control x resources (Burgundy, Venice, Kiev). Or there is a plan to replace them?

I agree. As I've just posted. Finishing all the UHV conditions for every civ should be our No.1 priority now. Whatever we put in now can be refined in the beta stage but putting something in ASAP should be the next
task for our coding guys IMO.

 

[Verily]

One of the balancing knobs that I have not yet exposed to pythons is about the spread of religions. The probability that a religion is spreads in a city is modified by the type of religion and the city owner. Orthodoxy spreads fast in Bulgaria and the Russias, Islam in the Arabs and Turkey, Catholicism in Spain and so on. We could increase the Protestant spread rate (it is high for Sweden, Netherlands and England, but we could make it even higher). Also we could implement in python that as soon as Protestantism is founded, it spreads to many cities (as opposed to just the Holy City).

One possibility, too, would be to have Protestantism wipe Catholicism (and Orthodoxy?) out in all of the cities it spreads to at founding. This would make sense historically since Catholicism essentially disappeared in all of the German territories initially before being reintroduced by the sword in Austria, Bavaria, Bohemia, etc. It would also encourage civs, especially the founding civ, to adopt Protestantism. Right now, they might spread Protestantism to all of their cities, but they also have Catholicism in all of their cities and won't convert to Protestantism due to the diplomatic pressure of having many Catholic civs around.

 

[3Miro]

I don't think there was ever a religious conflict between Protestants and Orthodoxes. Mainly because at the time when Protestantism spread, the only Orthodox nation left in Europe was Russia. Protestant - Orthodox relations are really hard to work out since they are too much into the "what if" universe.

Maybe Protestants did replace Catholics in Germany, but not in France. I can see the point of making Protestants replace Catholics, but I don't think it would work out in the game. What if entire Spanish cities convert to Protestantism? Too powerful!

 

[sedna17]

Hey Panopticon, thanks for the offer of help. Your code for reformation is pretty easy to understand, so no questions yet.

It does seem that Protestantism has to replace Catholicism or at least be auto-spread in order to be a viable religion. It's not just Germany after all -- the Anglican church in England is "Protestant" for the purposes of this mod (i.e. not in union with the Pope), and that was another whole-sale conversion with seizure of all the Catholic monasteries etc.

If we taken Panopticon's mod as a model we can make each civ have a number representing its tendency (as an AI) to accept the reformation and switch from Catholicism to Protestantism with the appropriate building changes. Germany, Netherlands, Scandinavia and England would have high probability to accept the switch, Spain would have a small (but non-zero) chance. The human player would have a choice for which side to ally with.

 

[civmademepoor]

Just finished a game as the Norse, UHV in 1326. Game speed was good, no civs where way up or down on techs, units seemed well balanced. Overall: GREAT! It was pretty easy, but we might want to leave a few easy ones out there. The 2nd UHV was the most difficult by far. England might be better off if Calais were slightly better defended, maybe with the new crossbowmen. I was able to take it with three beserkers in two turns.

A few notes:
1) Manchester turned into Shrewsbury when taken by the Norse.
2) Burgundy always DOW on Frankia shortly after the start of the game. This seems rather counterproductive to both civs, given the raging barbarians and indies in France.
3) The description of the Krak should read: free walls and castles in EVERY conquered city
4) Description of the Round Church should say brothers in the faith, not at faith. Also, I don't like the idea of it being the "Round Church of Preslav", given that it will most likely be in Cordoba or someplace. I know we have Versailles and a few others out there.
5) What's the story with the Netherlands Grenadiers? If kept, might Dutch Grenadiers make more sense for naming?

 

[civmademepoor]

Also, I'd like to reiterate something I posted a few months ago: Ragnar is a poor choice for a leader, as he likely didn't exist as anything more than a pirate. Canute, especially given our British-heavy UHV goals: I think would be better.

 

[3Miro]

Good points about the Round Church.

For Ragnar, he is not the only poor choice for a leader. Peter I of Russia ruled at the end of our mod, Ivan III would have been a much better choice. The problems is that we don't have graphics for so many leaders and Ragnar and Peter were just there so I used them. We should think about eventually finding and incorporating more graphics and more accurate leaders in general.

 

[kbk]

I am getting a game crash after I end my turn.

Also, When I loaded the dutch start, all my units appeared on iceland. I used the world builder to move them back to the Dutch start location though.

Edit: Sorry, this was the Jan 31st version.

 

[jessiecat]

Good points about the Round Church.

For Ragnar, he is not the only poor choice for a leader. Peter I of Russia ruled at the end of our mod, Ivan III would have been a much better choice. The problems is that we don't have graphics for so many leaders and Ragnar and Peter were just there so I used them. We should think about eventually finding and incorporating more graphics and more accurate leaders in general.

Perhaps you mean Ivan IV (Grozniy or "The Terrible"). I downloaded this LH from the CFC database some time ago. sedna 17 has it in his files now.

Edit. He's also got this one for Harald Hardrada, which might be better than Ragnar.

 

[3Miro]

Yep, wrong number.

 

[micbic]

1) Manchester turned into Shrewsbury when taken by the Norse.

I'll take care of it, as some other minor fixes

 

[jessiecat]

Just to report I'm getting a few crashes on the latest version playing as England and now as Arabia. The last one came up with a notice describing a runtime error. Unfortunately I couldn't get a screensave but this is the saved game. One odd thing I've noticed. The barb spawn in Anatolia has lasted for over 100 years (about 50 turns) in 1170. If this represents the Seljuk invasions which only lasted about 30 years (1040-1070) it is wrong. Even as a barbarian spawn it shouldn't last that long anyway, should it?

 

[sedna17]

2) Burgundy always DOW on Frankia shortly after the start of the game. This seems rather counterproductive to both civs, given the raging barbarians and indies in France.
3) The description of the Krak should read: free walls and castles in EVERY conquered city
5) What's the story with the Netherlands Grenadiers? If kept, might Dutch Grenadiers make more sense for naming?

Glad you enjoyed your game. To respond briefly to your other points:
2) I know. This is a problem, but France and Burgundy basically have to be in conflict later on, it would just help them both a lot to postpone it. Moving Burgundy to a later (post-834) spawn remains a possibility.
3) Duly noted
5) We didn't have a great UU for the Netherlands I feel. The grenadiers come so late that they kind of suck as a UU. Suggestions for a better UU?

 

[sedna17]

Just to report I'm getting a few crashes on the latest version playing as England and now as Arabia. The last one came up with a notice describing a runtime error. Unfortunately I couldn't get a screensave but this is the saved game. One odd thing I've noticed. The barb spawn in Anatolia has lasted for over 100 years (about 50 turns) in 1170. If this represents the Seljuk invasions which only lasted about 30 years (1040-1070) it is wrong. Even as a barbarian spawn it shouldn't last that long anyway, should it?

Okay, I can shorten up the Seljuk invasion. Any comments on if the overall strength seems about right (i.e should I put like the same number of barbs in a shorter time-span)? I seem to see a lot of razed cities in eastern Anatolia these days, maybe that hurts the Ottoman rise.