RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[HockeySam18]

Wow, your dad also plays RFCE!?

Glad you like it!
Up for 1.2, hopefully it will really be "soon" this time

Yes, he used to play vanilla BtS but once I showed him RFCE he hasn't played anything else! Both big fans of European history, we are.

Actually a few years back we both had a huge FFH2 stage too


Currently, the barb situation is manageable but difficult. They are quite strong though, especially the Sassanids (vs. Byz) and the Avars (vs. Bulgaria). Also, in my game as France, I didn't realize Lubeck was in Saxony (it was my first game with 1.1 and the last RFCE version I had played Lubeck was in Brandenburg). However, I lucked out as the wandering barbs in Germany gathered and razed Lubeck, so I wasn't punished for my ignorance

Love the changes in the SVN to barbs. No free wins changed my strategy as France, now it is better to send 2 axes to indy Barcelona and 2 axes + archer to indy Milan-- they're both awesome production cities. The rest is up to a combined axe/mounted sergeant force, which requires a little more skill. In 1.1, you could just use free barb wins vs Burdigala and Tolosa to get your axes to triple city raider, and they would always have upwards of 67% odds to win any battle for a city from then on. However, the trade of no free wins for no xp cap from barbs should be better for the civs for whom barbs are a constant threat.

 

[Chep]

Is it possible that you increased the barbs in eastern Europe for version 1079 (or one of the versions immediately before that)?

My recent try with Kiev seemed harder than I remembered and when I played with Bulgaria, almost everyone around me collapsed.
Kiev in 1050, Poland in 1250, Byzantines and Arabs due to the Seljuks between 1200 and 1250. And my north-eastern city had 3 barbs attack every 2 turns for the entire game^^

 

[AbsintheRed]

Is it possible that you increased the barbs in eastern Europe for version 1079 (or one of the versions immediately before that)?

My recent try with Kiev seemed harder than I remembered and when I played with Bulgaria, almost everyone around me collapsed.
Kiev in 1050, Poland in 1250, Byzantines and Arabs due to the Seljuks between 1200 and 1250. And my north-eastern city had 3 barbs attack every 2 turns for the entire game^^

No, the last few code commits before 1080 didn't have any barb balance changes
I'm currently making some changes, but mostly for Viceroy and Emperor (in revision 1080 and the upcoming 1081)
Was this on Emperor or on Monarch?

 

[Chep]

on Monarch, but the barbs felt like Emperor

(maybe I've just grown soft from playing the Iberian and Central European civs^^)

 

[Swarbs]

Is it possible that you increased the barbs in eastern Europe for version 1079 (or one of the versions immediately before that)?

My recent try with Kiev seemed harder than I remembered and when I played with Bulgaria, almost everyone around me collapsed.
Kiev in 1050, Poland in 1250, Byzantines and Arabs due to the Seljuks between 1200 and 1250. And my north-eastern city had 3 barbs attack every 2 turns for the entire game^^

Maybe some of the eastern AI civs need more help against barbs, even on Monarch and especially on Emperor? Giving them free defenders in a city under attack by barbs, or free units near cities they lose to barbs could help keep them alive for longer, which would make for a richer game in the east.

 

[gilgames]

@Hockey switching those UPs nice idea In my Byz games Sinope get razed/taken allways, and aleppo not :/

@Absint Your bulgarian tactic is epic fail!!!! If you dont take Const instantly, the u never will....But lets say, if you follow your tactic (assume it works), then there will be no time to settle the rest, + one GP fall out, due to time...

So, I did the english game (viceroy for pre test). Spawned ang got Lisieux... with my initial army i took paris (hard times) then they collapsed.... took the rest easy. Settled Notthingham, cardiff and bristol. all was easy till 1400. Then i had to take orleans (Neveres) from Burgundy. from the first uhv i was running on 100% tech, (before 80%). from that point scotts revolted twice!!! 1. at 15 stability, 2. at 40+ stability...its non sense, 40+ stab gave me 14% to stay, together 71% only, and they left me (((( no fair. change revolts mechanism, 15+ stability = no revolts....
oh and the 3. uhv...I had to reach future tech2! fix it to Right of Man! last tech vs fuure tech prise is brutal aprox 1 vs 5...

ps: i want to do some massive kiev tests....then I'll report my idea, how to do something

 

[AbsintheRed]

@Absint Your bulgarian tactic is epic fail!!!! If you dont take Const instantly, the u never will....But lets say, if you follow your tactic (assume it works), then there will be no time to settle the rest, + one GP fall out, due to time...

Checked it with the latest version after I wrote, and I won
First try, no reloads (naturally)

The first UHV was easy, the second UHV was close... but I guess that's always close.
I conquered Constantinople "only" in 900AD, but still popped out 4 Great Theologians there

 

[Chep]

for the "independent" civs like the Scots, Serbians, Catalans and the ones in northern Africa I recommend:
Do not build any wonder/project you can't do without there
Take mounted units as defenders (Mounted Seargeants, Lancers, Knights) and keep 2-3 strong knights 2-3 tiles away from it. If they revolt either 2 swordsmen appear -> go knights
or the city revolts -> go knights (since the defenders won't be able to use the tile defence this should go easily)

Concerning Bulgaria: I seriously doubt your tactic as well, Absinthe. I'd really love to see a game with it. In mine I took Constantinople + Hadrianopolis, losing only 1 or max 2 konniks, made peace and built catas for Thessaloniki + the 2 settlers I needed. I fulfilled the UHV 2-3 turns before the time was up (okay if I had played better maybe 5-8 turns earlier could have been possible)

edit: how many cities do you own?
I had 10, if the start had been harder I might have gone to 12, but with Mongols+Plague at the same time I was glad that I didn't have to. (also the leaning tower graciously gave me a "back-up"-Great Theologian)

 

[AbsintheRed]

Concerning Bulgaria: I seriously doubt you tactic as well, Absinthe. I'd really love to see a game with it. In mine I took Constantinople + Hadrianopolis, losing only 1 or max 2 konniks, made peace and built catas for Thessaloniki + the 2 settlers I needed. I fulfilled the UHV 2-3 turns before the time was up (okay if I had played better maybe 5-8 turns earlier could have been possible)

edit: how many cities do you own?
I had 10, if the start had been harder I might have gone to 12, but with Mongols+Plague at the same time I was glad that I didn't have to. (also the leaning tower graciously gave me a "back-up"-Great Theologian)

I had 15 or 16 cities in the end.
Altough the last 2 was conquered very late, when many of my cities had both castle and courthouse
Still, that's 3 cathedrals, all my cities only orthodox (successfully using inquisitors add +1 faith, and not having foreign religion in a city means you won't get the -1 faith penalty), and orthodox church and monastery in almost all of them.
That's 3*5 (cathedrals) + 15*3 faith points (buildings and religion in the cities) + the couple points from inquisitors, and as I said I also had 4 great theologians for 40 faith points.

If I'm lucky and able to conquer Constantinople on start, even the faith points goal would have been much easier.

 

[gilgames]

You might be an alien or a lier (what i dont think...) so i'll try your tactic, just for fun, but i doubt it

 

[Chep]

yeah, if you go big it might work with 1 or 2 less GTs.
But since there are hardly any stable areas to settle (except for the ones for the UHV, half of which are already "border", all other areas are foreign) and the constant barbs can pillage quite a lot of stability plus time for real warfare should you anger Hungary too much...I didn't think 16 cities would be possible - and stable. I wanted to go to 12 cities but didn't find any good spots: the ottoman spawn area is a no-go, settling towards Kiev might be possible but means even more mongols and pushing back Hungary seemed dangerous as they were the 2nd-best civ by score (after me).
With the plague + Mongols so close together I didn't feel like risking anything.

Also there seem to be some wonders that give faith points (5, I think):
Round Church (no one else will probably build it)
Notre Dame
Sophie-Church (if you manage to finish it in time) (requires guilds + philosophy)
maybe more
--
I also built the Uppsala-Shrine for additional GT-points in Constantinople (plus you build one of your cathedrals there for maximum priest slots).
If you have a savegame or two from your game I'd love to see them

edit: added one of my saves, close to the end where the game is basically won
(just wait for the ottomans to settle, raze the city and then raze their flipped city 2 turns later -> voila )

 

[ezzlar]

The rush Constantinople tactic is based upon pure luck I would say. Properly defended, instant grab is impossible.

 

[Swarbs]

@Absint Your bulgarian tactic is epic fail!!!! If you dont take Const instantly, the u never will....But lets say, if you follow your tactic (assume it works), then there will be no time to settle the rest, + one GP fall out, due to time...

I've never had a big problem with Bulgaria on Monarch. The key, imo, is to avoid the temptation to found two cities in Moesia. First settler founds Preslav on the spot, second settler goes to found Sredets, one NE of the wheat in Macedonia. Send one Konnik and the missionary to Sredets and the other four Konniks capture Hadrianopolis and Thessalonika.

Steal as many Byzantine workers as you can, and steal Athens if you can as it's another great production site. Then make peace with them, and build spearmen, Stans and Konniks in all cities. Put a spearman and an archer in each city, as the spearmen are stronger defending against horse archers and can sally to attack horse archers that stop on improvements.

You're left with four or five cities all of which have great production potential with plenty of food and lots of hills. All you have to do then is build one settler for Arberia and mass Konniks and a few catapults for Constantinople, then grab Serbia right before the deadline to avoid the revolts.

 

[Chep]

true, the temptation for the 2nd city there is high, I usually found it though (but after 1000 AD).

between Thessaloniki and Constantinople however I don't see much of a difference. Usually one of them has 1-2 defenders and the other one has 3-4. If you're unlucky there are 3 defenders in Thessaloniki and a Tagmata + 1 more unit in Constantinople
Of course, if the AI tried to defend those two cities, it would be impossible for Bulgaria to capture either one.

 

[Swarbs]

true, the temptation for the 2nd city there is high, I usually found it though (but after 1000 AD).

between Thessaloniki and Constantinople however I don't see much of a difference. Usually one of them has 1-2 defenders and the other one has 3-4. If you're unlucky there are 3 defenders in Thessaloniki and a Tagmata + 1 more unit in Constantinople
Of course, if the AI tried to defend those two cities, it would be impossible for Bulgaria to capture either one.

The main difference is the walls - Thessaloniki has 50% walls, whereas Constantinople usually has 225% walls + castle + Theodosian Walls. Constantinople also potentially has the Tagmata as you say, whilst Thessaloniki is more exposed to barb HAs.

Personally I find that you can usually take Thessaloniki as long as it only has two defenders. If there are three then you can wait a few turns and often the barbs will come and whittle them down. Or move around the city and take Athens and leave it empty, as that will usually stimulate the AI to send a couple of troops from Thessaloniki to try and capture it.

Either way, I find Thessaloniki is a surer bet to capture early, and you can then sit outside Constantinople waiting for an opportunity to strike, whereas taking Constantiniple early relies on the city being underdefended on spawn.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I've never had a big problem with Bulgaria on Monarch. The key, imo, is to avoid the temptation to found two cities in Moesia. First settler founds Preslav on the spot, second settler goes to found Sredets, one NE of the wheat in Macedonia. Send one Konnik and the missionary to Sredets and the other four Konniks capture Hadrianopolis and Thessalonika.

Actually I like to settle 2 cities in Moesia, for the additional stability.
I usually settle Varna (1E from starting tile) and Tarnovo (3W from start). So 2 cities in the core area.
With conquering Hadrianopolis and usually Thessalinika with the initial Konniks, the core of your empire is ready to go
First spearman, then workers and manor houses in all cities. Defend with those spearman and the remaining Konniks until you settle the needed areas.

My strategy need 2 settlers, one for Sredets (Sofia) in Macedonia and one for Drats (Durazzo) in Arberia, but it's easily manageable wth the increased stability.
Around 900AD you can easily conquer Serbia and Constantinopolis, as your cities will be developed enough to train enough Konniks, Spearman and siege units, no matter how strong the Byzantine defenses are.
The 2 cities in your core area will be even more worthy for the faith point UHV: it means both additinional stability for more cities, and additional faith points directly from that city.

 

[Swarbs]

Actually I like to settle 2 cities in Moesia, for the additional stability.
I usually settle Varna (1E from starting tile) and Tarnovo (3W from start). So 2 cities in the core area.
With conquering Hadrianopolis and usually Thessalinika with the initial Konniks, the core of your empire is ready to go
First spearman, then workers and manor houses in all cities. Defend with those spearman and the remaining Konniks until you settle the needed areas.

My strategy need 2 settlers, one for Sredets (Sofia) in Macedonia and one for Drats (Durazzo) in Arberia, but it's easily manageable wth the increased stability.
Around 900AD you can easily conquer Serbia and Constantinopolis, as your cities will be developed enough to train enough Konniks, Spearman and siege units, no matter how strong the Byzantine defenses are.
The 2 cities in your core area will be even more worthy for the faith point UHV: it means both additinional stability for more cities, and additional faith points directly from that city.

I do settle Tarnovo, but usually just after winning the 1st UHV. I didn't find the stability too important when going for the 1st UHV, and Tarnovo isn't as good a production site in the early game. I try to time it so that as soon as I've stopped building for the 1st UHV I get settlers for Tarnovo and also a city in Wallachia to stop the barbs and one down in Epirus.

I usually don't build manor houses early either, as again I don't find I need the stability and don't bother with Manorialism. I will build a couple of workers, depending on how many I can steal from Byzantium

 

[gilgames]

Its strage to hear (read) your ideas about bulgaria

I used to build varna and ilfov, take Hadri and Tsarigrad (still not renamed on conq) Thats a good foundation to get grow big. Holy srine keeps up tech at 100% till 1000-1100 AD. so settle / conq. the rest might not be hard, just need a proper timing. the rest is cake.

The temptaion is hard, because its dosnt matter where you settle city in core, it will be awesome.
imo worth it.

ps: now i'll test this slow grow thing.....wish me luck

 

[merijn_v1]

I can imagine that Absinthe didn't conquer Constantinople immidiately. But I do recommend to conquer it quite fast, as it is one of the best cities in that area. It will certainly buff your empire.

But it's indeed quite luck dependent. If you are lucky, the defenders of Constantinople are still harmed by the plague, which makes conquering it a lot easier. (But you still have to sacrifise 1 or 2 Konniks)
If the defense is back to normal, it's hard to conquer it.

 

[Swarbs]

I can imagine that Absinthe didn't conquer Constantinople immidiately. But I do recommend to conquer it quite fast, as it is one of the best cities in that area. It will certainly buff your empire.

But it's indeed quite luck dependent. If you are lucky, the defenders of Constantinople are still harmed by the plague, which makes conquering it a lot easier. (But you still have to sacrifise 1 or 2 Konniks)
If the defense is back to normal, it's hard to conquer it.

I agree that conquering it right from the start makes it easier. Tho' imo it makes it a bit too easy - once you have Constantinople you can essentially complete the rest of the UHV at will with no real challenges, as well as getting uber tech from the shrine and faith from the Theologians. The few times I took Constantinople from the off on Monarch I won the UHV 10-15 turns early, and the faith goal was done by around 1100AD.

And there is of course the simple luck element of relying on winning that first battle for Constantinople, basically turning the entire game into a one shot gamble. Win and you're fine, lose and you have to quit and start again. Not my favourite way to start the game