3Miro
Deity
@jessiecat: Burgundian bug is now fixed. A code issue, thanks for catching it.
Third UHV is not there yet since we don't have all resources yet.
Third UHV is not there yet since we don't have all resources yet.
RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread
- Thread starter st.lucifer
- Start date
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Thanks. I just tried again with Cordoba. Thought I'd got the UHV in 1000AD. Cordoba was 14. Opened up Worldbuilder. Sure enough Constantinople was only 11. But Jerusalem was 15. Just my luck, eh?
BTW I had a try at the Norse UHV yesterday. Got 3 cities in Britain by 1060 instead of 1000AD. And 1 in each of Britain, Iceland, Ireland and France by 1270 instead of 1200AD. The second would be easy if you didn't have to rush 3 settlers for Britain so early. I wonder if we should change it to control Norway by 1000AD (2 or 3 cities?). Might be more realistic. What do you think?
3Miro
Deity
Part of the problem might be that Norse have few resources and especially when it comes to settlers, those make a big difference. I will give it a try myself. I don't know how useful cities in Norway might be, we cold reduce the British requirement to 2 cities. Also, movement should be increased for all ships.
Playing a game as the Norse I went about it differently. I added a few resources to Denmark (iron, pigs, fish) and settled the second city in Sweden. With Aarhaus and the Swedish city, I was able to get the settlers built.
Of course I also changed the starting units in WB to include 2 settlers, 2 archers and 2 axeman. PLus, 2 turns later I added 3 workers (mirroring more or less how the Viking start in RFC).
The first 2 UHV conditions are realistic, once the starting units and techs are normalized. The third one, reveal all water squares by 1600, needs to be tweaked or better explained. It is in the late 13th century, and by trading maps and exploring with merchants, I was able to reveal the entire map....but no third condition met.
Of course I also changed the starting units in WB to include 2 settlers, 2 archers and 2 axeman. PLus, 2 turns later I added 3 workers (mirroring more or less how the Viking start in RFC).
The first 2 UHV conditions are realistic, once the starting units and techs are normalized. The third one, reveal all water squares by 1600, needs to be tweaked or better explained. It is in the late 13th century, and by trading maps and exploring with merchants, I was able to reveal the entire map....but no third condition met.
3Miro
Deity
Test play with Cordoba and the new stability scheme. Only Burgundy collapsed, conquered by the Franks. The rest of the AI are doing fine. The system will need more tweaking, but seems to work and would be included in the next test version.
The screenshots are for jessiecat.
The screenshots are for jessiecat.
Attachments
st.lucifer
King
Miro handled this far more diplomatically than I would have, but I'm going to weigh in on it to try and prevent any further outbursts.
As you stated, you've been here from the beginning. That's great - there are two of us left, with Jessiecat in third place, but unfortunately no prizes are awarded for longevity. I appreciate your contributions to the mod - you have put in many good ideas, and we've tried to incorporate them when there was general agreement.
On the negative side of things, you're regularly hostile and dismissive of other posters. Your 'suggestions' are presented more like demands, and are often buried in the middle of your writings, and you throw tantrums whenever they aren't responded to.
I understand that English isn't your native language, and that you don't live in the US. Nobody is proposing those as requirements to participate in mod development, and you aren't the only non-native speaker working on the project. There will always be errors in communication, and that's unavoidable - I'm impressed that you're able to communicate effectively in your second language, as I'd have an impossible time doing the same thing in Japanese (my second language).
However, there's a big difference in the way you communicate and the way everyone else here does. It doesn't seem to be a difference in language skill so much as a difference in expression - you are not only opinionated (a good thing) but determined to prove that everyone else is wrong, and you do not hesitate to imply that we are stupid or ignorant. You are dismissive and insulting to those who disagree with you, and you pick fights constantly.
Again, you do make proposals, and you're a smart guy. I appreciate your contributions to the mod, and would like you to continue making them. If you'd like to be in charge of figuring out starting units and techs, please take it on! One way of getting your suggestions implemented is bringing a fully developed set to the table - for example, on a different thread today, you proposed having an aristocrat specialist instead of a scientist. For much of the duration of the mod, this makes a lot of sense. I like the idea. So, why not also propose what the stats on an aristocrat are? Does it produce science, culture, gold, espionage, or some combination? What specialist does it replace? I realize that doing this is a lot of work without any guarantee that it'll be adopted, but that's sort of how the development here has gone - I mean, I made a huge map of Europe and transposed the freaking thing 10 tiles over one piece at a time before knowing that we were going to use it. Several of us have done tech trees. Right now, we're working from Cornelio's proposed colony list, and he showed up three weeks ago. I've got changes I'd like to make to it, but I'm waiting until I have the time to fully develop my own set of ideas to do it. If you can do that sort of thing with your proposals and put them forward in the same manner that everyone else does, they're more likely to be accepted.
Again, we want your help - please keep contributing, and please make an effort to be less abrasive.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Curses! Foiled again.
BTW How did you get Cordoba to size 17? The best I could do was 14 after many attempts.
3Miro
Deity
Originally I had Cordoba as 16, 17 happened only after couple of Great Merchants settled. From the very beginning, go for feudalism and settle Cordoba and Seville. I think I added couple of Workers from the WB, but you could probably do it without. Build one ot two more workers in Seville and work the Silver until you get Feudalism. Start in Cordoba with a granary and keep one worker on the forested hills (build mine), the rest should go on irrigated tiles. Don't build workers in Cordoba, it slows you too much.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
Thanks for that. I'll try again when the next version comes out.
BTW I just had a try with the Venice start. I realize now why she's usually wiped out early. Even though I added a couple of axmen and spearmen I was defeated in about 10 turns by a rabid AI Rome using endless catapults. Why is Venice automatically at war with an independent Rome anyway?
BTW I just had a try with the Venice start. I realize now why she's usually wiped out early. Even though I added a couple of axmen and spearmen I was defeated in about 10 turns by a rabid AI Rome using endless catapults. Why is Venice automatically at war with an independent Rome anyway?
3Miro
Deity
Its a BUG, I have not figured it out yet. Everyone starts at war with the Indeps.
onedreamer
Dragon
incidentally, indipendents shouldn't be able to go in the jungle 3Miro. If you have time to fix that (or tell me where to look).
3Miro
Deity
As far as I can remember, jungles are place holders for marshes and units should enter marshes. Both Venice and the Indeps should enter them (maybe st.Lucifer can say if I am right, he was the map guy). Either way, the "cannot enter jungles" is in the XML (for every individual unit).
onedreamer
Dragon
well, my venetian military units couldn't enter the "jungle", only the papal states ones could. The last thing I've read on the matter is in the map thread from post 263 through post 271. Could be changed since then... St Lucifer ? 
sedna17
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2008
- Messages
- 1,091
I played a test game as the Norse and gave myself the following starting units (2 settlers, 2 workers, 2 beserkers, 2 galleys). The first UHV was relatively easy to make in time with this, but I like the tension inherent in settling on English land which will turn hostile some number of turns after you meet the first goal. So that was all to the good.
A few observations:
There's no effective way to limit the growth of cities. The lack of slavery/caste system provides limited realistic options for keeping your cities small. Markets are enabled at the start, so you can build one and run a couple merchants, which helps, but that's pretty much your only option other than letting your cities get big and unhappy. Serfdom, as currently designed, exacerbates this problem by providing even more food.
Options for initial culture are similarly limited without religion. I had contact with the (Catholic) Franks and Burgundians, but didn't get religion up to 1060 AD. Without a religion, currently one can research Theology->Art and get the option to build culture. This is the only way to pop your borders in new cities in the early game. Perhaps we should have a monument-like building for initial non-religious culture?
I'm going to think about these problems and play another test game before proposing/implementing solutions, but I'd welcome other people's opinions on how the early game play feels (not just on the UHVs).
A few observations:
There's no effective way to limit the growth of cities. The lack of slavery/caste system provides limited realistic options for keeping your cities small. Markets are enabled at the start, so you can build one and run a couple merchants, which helps, but that's pretty much your only option other than letting your cities get big and unhappy. Serfdom, as currently designed, exacerbates this problem by providing even more food.
Options for initial culture are similarly limited without religion. I had contact with the (Catholic) Franks and Burgundians, but didn't get religion up to 1060 AD. Without a religion, currently one can research Theology->Art and get the option to build culture. This is the only way to pop your borders in new cities in the early game. Perhaps we should have a monument-like building for initial non-religious culture?
I'm going to think about these problems and play another test game before proposing/implementing solutions, but I'd welcome other people's opinions on how the early game play feels (not just on the UHVs).
hendriksen
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2008
- Messages
- 32
I'm now playing with bulgaria and at 696 AD I met my first condition of the UHV:
Own every city in Misia, Thracia and Macedonia by 1400 AD.
If it was intended to do it this way, by just capturing some cities from the Byzantines, it is way to easy... Just attack with some konniks and you'll have your first condition in a few turns.
Or wasn't it intended that you could meet that condition before 1400 AD?
Own every city in Misia, Thracia and Macedonia by 1400 AD.
If it was intended to do it this way, by just capturing some cities from the Byzantines, it is way to easy... Just attack with some konniks and you'll have your first condition in a few turns.
Or wasn't it intended that you could meet that condition before 1400 AD?
I had a similar situation happen in my test as Bulgaria. Of course eventually my stability caused collapse when I over expanded.
onedreamer
Dragon
What if serfdom would give a bonus (+1 gold ?) to the worker specialist ? Could be a good tool to limit early city growth ?
sedna17
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2008
- Messages
- 1,091
I like that idea.
3Miro
Deity
Bulgarian UHV read by 1400AD, so you can get it relatively early. The catch is that you have to capture Constantinople and while in the current version it is relatively easy, eventually there would be some spearman behind the walls. The initial Bulgarian invasion would not capture more then Sredec and Adrianopolis and I am thinking about extending the victory condition to include Thessaloníki as well, so that one would not be so easy.
Sefdom: a gold and an extra hammer for +2h +1g.
Sefdom: a gold and an extra hammer for +2h +1g.
jessiecat
Divine Monarch
@3Miro. A report on my current Arabian game with the new version. The first UHV is easy but don't try to expand beyond Aleppo and Antioch as everything just flips to the Ottomans when they spawn. The Byzantines were not a problem after I captured 2 cities and razed 4 more.
The 2nd. UHV could be very hard esp later in the game. The best I had was 22% about the time I got the first UHV condition. It gets less doable the longer the game goes.
The 3rd. UHV is very doable if you build lots of cities (31, see screenshot). I got control of all N. Africa east of Oran by 1600AD (not "West" as the UHV conditions and the civ list still describes! That needs a fix before I can finish this game. Again see screenshot).
A couple of other points. When you found Islam in Damascus you don't even get a mosque, let alone a Grand Mosque. You get a mosque if you flip or conquer a city but not when you found a new city. If Islam spreads to your new city when you found it, shouldn't you get a mosque automatically?
Where are the spies? Great spies are pretty useless without them. If I had spies I could spread culture or religion which would be very handy in getting the 30% Islam, wouldn't it? I looked for them in the civlopedia unit list and they're not there. Why not?
The 2nd. UHV could be very hard esp later in the game. The best I had was 22% about the time I got the first UHV condition. It gets less doable the longer the game goes.
The 3rd. UHV is very doable if you build lots of cities (31, see screenshot). I got control of all N. Africa east of Oran by 1600AD (not "West" as the UHV conditions and the civ list still describes! That needs a fix before I can finish this game. Again see screenshot).
A couple of other points. When you found Islam in Damascus you don't even get a mosque, let alone a Grand Mosque. You get a mosque if you flip or conquer a city but not when you found a new city. If Islam spreads to your new city when you found it, shouldn't you get a mosque automatically?
Where are the spies? Great spies are pretty useless without them. If I had spies I could spread culture or religion which would be very handy in getting the 30% Islam, wouldn't it? I looked for them in the civlopedia unit list and they're not there. Why not?
