RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[jessiecat]

From my recent game as Burgundy. The first and third UHV conditions were easy though I just couldn't get elected to lead a crusade even though I had 3 Catholic vassals (France, Germany and Genoa) and +30 in the religion box. It's odd how the balance has shifted. I was the score leader in 1500 but only after overtaking Bulgaria and the Kievan Rus who had built up a massive early lead,. Not only did they survive the Mongol hordes but they became the early powerhouses. Something out of balance there I think.

 

[Myri]

With double tech rates tech is about as fast as in Alpha 4. Nothing balanced, just slowed down tech for everyone.

#void setProductionModifiers( int iCiv, int iUnits, int iBuildings, int iWonders, int iResearch );
# defaults (i.e. no effect) ( iCiv, 100, 100, 100, 100 )
# 3Miro: at 100 research cost, the cost is axactly as in the XML files, the cost in general is however increased for all civs
# Sedna17: "Base"/no-effect tech rate is now effectively 150
gc.setProductionModifiers(iBurgundy, 150, 100, 100, 220 )
#gc.setProductionModifiers(iByzantium, 300, 200, 200, 330 )
# Myri: I was here!
gc.setProductionModifiers(iByzantium, 400, 200, 200, 660 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iFrankia, 150, 100, 100, 330 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iArabia, 150, 100, 100, 440 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iBulgaria, 150, 100, 100, 380 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iCordoba, 200, 200, 100, 440 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iSpain, 100, 100, 100, 242 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iNorse, 150, 100, 100, 300 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iVenecia, 150, 100, 100, 330 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iKiev, 150, 100, 100, 300 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iHungary, 150, 100, 100, 330 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iGermany, 150, 100, 100, 330 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iPoland, 150, 120, 120, 380 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iMoscow, 150, 100, 100, 220 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iGenoa, 150, 100, 100, 220 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iEngland, 150, 100, 100, 264 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iPortugal, 135, 100, 100, 330 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iAustria, 120, 90, 100, 264 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iTurkey, 75, 70, 100, 220 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iSweden, 75, 60, 100, 176 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iDutch, 75, 50, 100, 154 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iPope, 300, 200, 100, 440 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iIndependent, 150, 100, 500, 900 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iIndependent2, 150, 100, 500, 900 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iIndependent3, 150, 100, 500, 900 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iIndependent4, 150, 100, 500, 900 )
gc.setProductionModifiers(iBarbarian, 150, 100, 1000, 1000 )

bye Myri

 

[3Miro]

Only the 2 units. Another thing with the Balestrieris, they can use enemy roads, have hidden commando.

bye Myri

Do you have a picture or save on the commando bug? I have been unable to get my Balestrieris to use enemy roads.

 

[Myri]

Argh, i am stupid, those Balestrieris were to defend the mountains and had double movement or so there, sorry

bye Myri

 

[3Miro]

Argh, i am stupid, those Balestrieris were to defend the mountains and had double movement or so there, sorry

bye Myri

No Problem.

 

[3Miro]

With double tech rates tech is about as fast as in Alpha 4. Nothing balanced, just slowed down tech for everyone.

Double the slow down make little sense, but you are right that it works. I am now trying to figure out how is it possible for the balance to get messed up so badly.

Thanks

 

[Myri]

Early catholics get far to much money, 100 % tech rate and a large army, fast expansion, ... Mainly France and Burgund, to some extent Venice and maybe Spain. Slow them down. Nobody should get 40 g in the 6th century, thats several times the gnp

Bulgaria can expand to fast because of less costs and better stability. Slow down.

200 % tech rate did not work for later civs, i am now at 150 %.

I think when you slow down France, Burgund, Bulgaria, Venice and Spain only 120 % tech rate or so is needed.

Edit: No idea about the muslims.

bye Myri

 

[Michael Vick]

Yes, I remember France had a lot of money. I'd always sell them my techs because every 5 turns or so they'd have accumulated like 200 gold.

 

[Myri]

Another Problem of faith, large empires will get much more faith than small ones and, yes, get even larger. Maybe do not just add 1 faith per action but something like this:
1st action 10 faith, 2nd 8, 3rd 6, 4th 5, 5th 4, 6th 3, 7th 2, 8+ 1

Edit: The Pope really loves you for conversion but could not care less about your 12th monastery.

bye Myri

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Early catholics get far to much money, 100 % tech rate and a large army, fast expansion, ... Mainly France and Burgund, to some extent Venice and maybe Spain. Slow them down. Nobody should get 40 g in the 6th century, thats several times the gnp

So that's where the balance went haywire. I still think that the Pope giving gold is so unreal in history. Innocent won't lift the interdict on England until John made penance and gave yearly tribute. In fact, Peter's Pence was one of many of the OPPOSITE practice. And if it were not for the False Decretals in the mid-850's, the Papal States would not have come into being and where would the Pope get his gold?
If the papacy were to give gold, it really shouldn't start until after the schism, when all the major Europeans have been established. By then 30-50 gold would not be as big a percent of their GNP and play such a big role in strong Burgundy and France. (Alas, it'll also mean that Emperor Burgundy might not be possible, given youtien's predilection for conquering far away cities in Spain...)

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Edit: The Pope really loves you for conversion but could not care less about your 12th monastery.

Agree, makes saints much more useful.

 

[3Miro]

1. If the Pope would not give away gold, what would he do with all of it. He has to do something other than just stockpile, otherwise we can just eliminate the gold bonus from the Catholic Holy Shrine.

2. Bulgaria is stronger and I working on a way to slow them down. At least the Byzantines are now weaker.

3. Despite all the bonuses, Spain still doesn't go at Cordoba efficiently (even when they get control of a Crusade for the Holy Land and land it right in front of Cordoba.

4. Large Empires do get large faith bonus, which I think is natural. Others can offset by being nice to the Pope. The snowballing effect of: Buildings -> More Faith -> More Buildings would be removed.

5. Economic stability should be improved. Right now it is using a formula based on Buildings from half a year ago.

6. At least I fixed some bugs about the Resurrection crap.

7. Protestants now get no Faith if they convert immediately. I also want to make it so that not all Catholic Buildings convert to Protestants and more Catholicism is left behind.

8. Free Religion should be improved to compensate for the lack of Faith Points. Under the same category, Republic should give less beakers and more gold (to represent rich Venice), Manorism and some of the very early civics are useless and need improvement.

9. France and Burgundy need to go at each other more heavily so that one can kill the other.

10. Random wars should be more restricted between neighbors, stop the random stupid war between Kiev and Spain.

11. Now we have the code to make some nations go to war on spawn (i.e. Bulgaria immediately attacks Byzantium) and I can do something similar with the Arabs. Other than that I can think of Cordoba and Spain and who else should start aggressive?

12. The list if far from comprehensive.

13. The worst of all is that this is all tied together and one cannot handle the issues one at a time. I will try to get Alpha 5 as soon as possible and I will try to fix some of the new code issues, so hopefully we can do rebalancing with a fuller picture.

 

[3Miro]

Add attacking Barbs on the other side of the map + weak Venice to the picture (damn it Venice now has two and a half UP and still turtles, especially with the Crusades being taken by the Spanish and not Venetians.

 

[jessiecat]

In response, a couple of points.

1. Yes Bulgaria is too strong. So is Kiev. As I mentioned in the playtesting thread. Does it have anything to do with Orthodox countries getting extra stability and lower costs from their faith points?

2. France should be in conflict with England when it spawns. Maybe Germany too.

3. The Scottish barbs spawn too frequently and for too long (500 years?)

4. What is the "resurrection crap" you're referring to?

5. I think you meant Alpha6 in your last point.

6. In general that faith points bonuses are too powerful in the hands of the human player at least.

BTW When you capture a city anywhere near Italy the people still ask to join the Papacy.

 

[3Miro]

In response, a couple of points.

1. Yes Bulgaria is too strong. So is Kiev. As I mentioned in the playtesting thread. Does it have anything to do with Orthodox countries getting extra stability and lower costs from their faith points?

2. France should be in conflict with England when it spawns. Maybe Germany too.

3. What is the "resurrection crap" you're referring to?

4. I think you meant Alpha6 in your last point.

5. In general that faith points bonuses are too powerful in the hands of the human player at least.

BTW When you capture a city the people still ask to join the Papacy.

1. I suppose it is the Stability + lower cost. Myri's adjustment at least nerfed Kiev.

2. Germany is far, but will do France.

3. Nations can resurrect the next turn after they were conquered. Now they have to wait at least 30 turns.

4. I lost count of the Alphas, I mean Alpha n+1

5. Yep .....

6. Please make me a savegame right before you capture a city and the Pope asks for it. I will make it easier if I have something to test this with.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Much as I like auto-wars because of the element of surprise, this might make certain civs not viable (both for the human and AI), like Germany. Yes, I quash them every time I play Burgundy or France, but that doesn't mean that the AI should do it. Maybe set certain ranges of historical dates (Norse-England Battle of Hastings, England-France 100 Years' War, Bulgaria-Byzantium any time between 680 to 1355)--just make it more likely but not automatic. Certain datse are "emblematic" even though they may not be in history (e.g. the issue of Abd-ar-Rahman III's supposed pederasty of Pelagius)...

 

[Michael Vick]

Can the Catholic with the most faith points be named Holy Roman Emperor? Recieving the title, better relations with the pope.

 

[3Miro]

Can the Catholic with the most faith points be named Holy Roman Emperor? Recieving the title, better relations with the pope.

The plan is to eventually do something along those lines.

 

[jessiecat]

6. Please make me a savegame right before you capture a city and the Pope asks for it. I will make it easier if I have something to test this with.

Here you go then. As requested. In the next turn below you get the request. If you say yes, the city comes under the control of the Pope.

 

[Myri]

3. The Scottish barbs spawn too frequently and for too long (500 years?)

500 years? You do something wrong. 1173 last barbs spawned in England at emporer.

- capture Edingburgh, get 10 culture
- found Inverness on the fur, get 10 culture
- block the 2 tiles not in your borders to the west of Edinburgh with troops
barbs gone

bye Myri