RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[Sian]

theres not really any horses around for Norse so mounted Sarge is out

but yeah ... hold up against say ... Arabias two first UHV's Norse have way less time to fiddle around

 

[Aharon]

A note that this one can't be achieved via great artist would be nice. I tried to do so and was disappointed. I wanted culture the easy way, and specifically chose Lithuania instead of Burgogne because of the great artist method It was quite a surprise when it didn't work...

 

[Samsa]

I did the Settler through russia to crimea with the norse and it worked just fine. But played rather risky with just one crossbowman and the settler walking ahead ^_^
And i was lucky to have open borders with the Kievan!
It quite fast to get there, since there is already a road build down there.

 

[The Turk]

I personally think that it would just be best if that criteria in the UHV be removed. Reaching the Crimea is pretty hard and then on top of that conquering Normandy, is really hard, and really should be changed. The Norse UHV is already hard enough, and therefore does nit need it.

Also when are the unique names going to be changed? Currently they are really messed up. If you want I can help you with some of the unique names

 

[3Miro]

BUG: Playing as Burgundy, but third UHV (higher score than France, Germany, & England) failed although I had the second highest game score (second only to Norse). Would a save game help?

EDIT: Found the bug. Since getTeamRank returns the team order with 0 being best and increasing ranks being worse, your greater than sign should be a less than sign. In other words, Burgundy must rank lower than France, Germany, and England (since lower is better).

                if ( iGameTurn == xml.i1473AD and pBurgundy.getUHV(2) == -1 ):
                        iBurgundyRank = gc.getGame().getTeamRank(iBurgundy)
                        bIsOnTop = True
                        for iTestPlayer in tBurgundyOutrank:
                                if ( gc.getGame().getTeamRank(iTestPlayer) [B][COLOR="Red"]>[/COLOR][/B] iBurgundyRank ):
                                        bIsOnTop = False
                                        break
                        if ( bIsOnTop ):
                                pBurgundy.setUHV( 2, 1 )
                        else:
                                pBurgundy.setUHV( 2, 0 )

P.S. Just reran the game with the less than sign and it works like a charm!

Awesome. I will add the change to the svn today.

 

[rock_star]

I was thinking that maybe you can reach Crimea faster by putting out a settler and a mounted sergeant at Lithuania and going through Russia. I still have to try this out though. The reason I don't like to play with the Norse that much is because you don't have time to do anything else other than focus on the goals, you start out in 780 and by the late-800's you have to think about going to Iceland, building Vineland, preparing a fleet to Sicily/Crimea.That means no city building or developing like you said, 1060 comes quite soon. Actually you don't have time to build a big army either, if you get unlucky with the Berserkers dying at a city you will have a problem.

I know that the goals can be completed, it's just the fun I'm missing with them somehow.

This was my experience with the Norse as well - their game felt like it was on rails for me - all I could do was focus on the goals and didn't have much room for playing around as I went. My grandfather was from Kalmar, so I always look forward to playing as the Viking/Scandinavian civs (tell me I'm not the only one with a soft spot for your ancestors - more open for trade/pacts than other rival civs?), and with this one I feel like I can either expand properly, or go for the UHV, but not both.

while they could do slightly stronger (2 more 'zerkers would do the trick i'd say, and/or moving the capital slightly for a better place, such as somewhere in Jutland, maybe moving the province border between Denmark and Saxony one tile southwards and start at Haithabu, 1N of the pigs at Hamburg, with the ships on the westen coast, and a road to it),
I don't think that Norse is specificly weak in any way ... well, Crimea is tricky to gain, since you practially have to sail around to sicily capturing Palermo and building a settler there to transport futher on through Byzans (which you have to be peaceful with since you don't have the forces to capture Constantinople), and if your bet for Palermo fails (either due to unlucky rolls or getting raped by a War Galley trying to get through Codorba) you're not able to really get there in time in my experience. But if this far expedition works proberly Norse is actually quite easy in my book...

they're a bit to much hit or miss in terms of Sicily/Crimea, but otherwise easy enough

...

an idea could prehaps be to roll the city conquest and city razing into 1 UHV somehow and then give them an early start where the first handful of turns give them half a chance to actually expand beyond the first 2-3 cities in what should be mainland ... the never really get a chance to do that (in my playthrough i build Roskilde, Lindholm and then overseas the rest of the game as needed, simply because i wouldn't be able to reearn the invistment of building more cities homeside) and then give them a UHV that forces them to dedicate early deployment to settle Scandinavia prober (thinking a city in Gotaland, Denmark, Vestfold, Svealand, Norrland and Norway)

in length of that i'd suggest moving Svealand a bit north ... the Lakes are the southen border, not all over ... and in the same change carve out the southenmost parts of Gotaland, calling it Scania

I personally think that it would just be best if that criteria in the UHV be removed. Reaching the Crimea is pretty hard and then on top of that conquering Normandy, is really hard, and really should be changed. The Norse UHV is already hard enough, and therefore does nit need it.

Also when are the unique names going to be changed? Currently they are really messed up. If you want I can help you with some of the unique names

These ideas are great ways to implement the Norse in the game. The Crimean requirement is historically problematic, as the men who lived there were not Norse, but Goths - is was settled well before the Viking age. It's really bending history to settle the lands by passing through the land of the Rus', who were themselves founded by the Vikings.

It is nice to see the Volga basin as OK for Nordic settlement to represent the Varangian vikings, but not be required for the UHV. Perhaps removing the Crimea from the UHV but leaving it OK for settlement would do service to the North European presence in the area.

The razing goal is also troublesome, as the Vikings were primarily traders and explorers and didn't really raze cities. They'd often sack the same targets multiple times, and while their exploits could be thoroughly devastating - IE: Lindisfarne - a razing goal isn't quite as fitting for them as it is for the Mongols in vanilla RFC (Merv anyone? Kiev? Now that's destroying a city). Settling Scandinavia would be a better goal, since the Vikings alreay have the Conquerers goal that focuses on fighting. Settling is a fairly easy thing to do, though, so it wouldn't likely be that challenging, but then again, razing is equally easy, and there's no time limit on the goal.

Still, the Norse are fun to play. My winning stratey was to send the first settler to Iceland and take 30 turns to build a workboat. I sent my troops out to sack England, France, Scotland and Ireland in that order. My next settler is loaded into a galley and goes to the Baltic shore to run down the russian roads to settle Doros ("Birka"). I build two or three galleys, load them with Berserkers and set out for the Norman invasion of Southern Italy/Sicily. If I'm lucky, Cordoba will open borders. If not, I'll work on the razing goal if I see a poorly defended city in Andalucia (and I do ). I only wish I'd see that Harald wins the UHV with more than 2-3 cities in Scandinavia.

 

[Veshta]

Vikings did raid the European coast lines for hundreds of years and it is what most people think off when asked, but there is no real option for that other than razing cities in Civ. RFC solved it by giving them the x5 to gold on capture/pillage which encouraged players at least to rampage like proper barbarians.

Third UHV is the one that irks me the most. It is supposed to be the unhistorical one yet comes out as historically accurate as can be .. Norman (Viking descendent) conquests.
If you want unhistorical then why go so far? They tried and failed to control the Baltic coast in its entirety thanks to all the budding nations rising to the south, give them a UHV similar to the Kievan Black Sea goal only for the Baltic:

Control the Baltic Coast from Riga to Hamburg in 1100 (or something like that).

If its added to settler map then you not only put pressure on Germany, Poland and Lithuania but you allow for more cities at Sweden spawn so that Norse may survive longer and maybe even enough to be SWE vassals .. if not you get a bunch of independent Baltic sea cities in the midst of highly cultured Europe (Hanseatic League cities claiming autonomy anyone?)

 

[Sian]

downright saying from Hamburg to Riga might be a bit much, since even from an early time (at least historically) germanic king/fief/prince/whatever -doms (or the Teutonic Brotherhood later on) more or less constantly controled up to somewhere in in the baltic countries, with Danes and Swedes fighting for control of Estonia for colonization (and crusading) purposes ...

An Idea could be

Start : 500ad (since Uppsala was built as early as 3rd or 4'th century) ...

UHV 1:
Settle Denmark, Norway, Vestfold, Gotaland, Svealand and Norrland by 750AD

UHV 2:
Vinland Created by 1009AD

UHV 3:
Conquror Yorkshire, East Angelia (also part of Danelaw) Scotland, Ireland, Normandy, Estonia and Sicily by ~1050

 

[The Turk]

I like the take over Estonia UHV better than the Crimea one. Plus it sounds more historically accurate as well!

 

[Science Rules]

How about own X coastal cities (like Carthage in the original RFC)? That gives the player flexibility and enhances replay value.

 

[3Miro]

The way I see the Norse/Vikings/Normans/Varangians.

Historic goal: get everything that was greatly influenced by them: England, Normandy, Sicily and South Russia (Rus comes from the word for the Varangians). Crimea is not 100% accurate, but otherwise we have to put the Norse and Kiev at war while being so far from Denmark that it would be totally one sided.

Historic goal: raid, raid and raid. Make everyone fearful of building cities on the coast.

A historic goal: establish the Vinland colony. While the Vikings got to Vinland, they failed to make a permanent settlement.

Some thoughts on the proposed goals: there is no competition for settling the Baltic region or Scandinavia. This is trivial goal.

We have to make things challenging, we can ask the Vikings to build the Shrine of Uppsala over a very short period of time, while conquering the provinces. If building the shrine is challenging enough, we can replace the Crimea UHV with conquest of Novogorod.

 

[Science Rules]

Another idea of mine is to link Vinland with the far-flung Viking exploration. Make the Vinland project (and the Shrine of Uppsala?) really expensive, but give +100% hammers with resources such as "Norman Conquest I", "Norman Conquest II", "Norman Conquest III", etc. Seeking these resources out will force the Viking player to dominate the seas. Placing a similar resource in Ukraine would simulate the trade that the Rus engaged in (make Norse trade with Kievan Rus, which requires some investment to maintain constant contact.

 

[3Miro]

Another idea of mine is to link Vinland with the far-flung Viking exploration. Make the Vinland project (and the Shrine of Uppsala?) really expensive, but give +100% hammers with resources such as "Norman Conquest I", "Norman Conquest II", "Norman Conquest III", etc. Seeking these resources out will force the Viking player to dominate the seas. Placing a similar resource in Ukraine would simulate the trade that the Rus engaged in (make Norse trade with Kievan Rus, which requires some investment to maintain constant contact.

Way too much code for only one UHV. We can make Vinland and the Shrine expensive, but then they have to become cheaper with resources found naturally in Normandy and Kiev.

At any rate, this gives you somewhat redundant UHV conditions.

 

[Science Rules]

Way too much code for only one UHV. We can make Vinland and the Shrine expensive, but then they have to become cheaper with resources found naturally in Normandy and Kiev.

At any rate, this gives you somewhat redundant UHV conditions.

Fair enough, you are the coder after all. The resources naturally found in Normandy, Sicily, S. Italy and Kiev will do. Actually, this may pose an interesting problem for the Viking player, it may be possible to do the UHV by conquering ahistoric territory (Iberia perhaps), but this added flexibility is exchanged with stability issues.

Personally, I'd do away with the UHV requesting control of certain provinces. Build X coastal cities (or maybe build X trading posts would be easier to code). That way the Vikings can't get their resources by simply going south and invading Germany/Burgundy.

Other ideas for another UHV would be to steal from base RFC: Sink Y ships; or amass Z gold.

 

[Barak]

Playing as Burgundy, when I conquer Paris France collapses soon after. My stability is +8, yet when France is reborn (very quickly I might add) Paris not only flips, but becomes their capital. Seems that with my good stability I should be able to maintain control with my 6 units in the city and a courthouse built.

 

[kochman]

Playing as Burgundy, when I conquer Paris France collapses soon after. My stability is +8, yet when France is reborn (very quickly I might add) Paris not only flips, but becomes their capital. Seems that with my good stability I should be able to maintain control with my 6 units in the city and a courthouse built.

Oui, but your troops maintained in Paris are of Parisian decent, you see! And they betrayed the Burgundian dog!

 

[3Miro]

Playing as Burgundy, when I conquer Paris France collapses soon after. My stability is +8, yet when France is reborn (very quickly I might add) Paris not only flips, but becomes their capital. Seems that with my good stability I should be able to maintain control with my 6 units in the city and a courthouse built.

What year was it. If it is a special respawn, then you cannot stop it, but those happen only once in specific period of time.

 

[Barak]

What year was it. If it is a special respawn, then you cannot stop it, but those happen only once in specific period of time.

It was turn 154, so 1062. I have no trouble with them re-spawning, but what is the good of taking cities if I can't keep them!

I'm also sure that I will start to lose hard earned culture to them, which is frustrating (especially since culture is needed for a UHV)

 

[3Miro]

It was turn 154, so 1062. I have no trouble with them re-spawning, but what is the good of taking cities if I can't keep them!

I'm also sure that I will start to lose hard earned culture to them, which is frustrating (especially since culture is needed for a UHV)

Have you tried doing the Germany UHV in regular RFC?

Also, Burgundy doesn't lose UHV culture on respawn. If you lose cities, you do get less per turn, but you don't lose UHV culture that is already accumulated.

 

[Barak]

I have learned there are tricks and rules to who re-spawns. I realized I did not have the military or the economy to conquer all of France, which would have stopped the re-spawn. That is what I always did playing as Germany in RFC. Just conquer Europe and leave nothing to the vanquished!

Kind of wish there were a representation of the HRE in RFCE.