RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[AbsintheRed]

Checked, and without open borders you still can't spread hanseatic league
So the executive got the ability to enter foreign territory, like all the other naval units
While all corporation can only be spread into a foreign city if you have open borders

 

[Folket]

Have you tested that automatic spread on the hanseatic league works as intended as well.

 

[AbsintheRed]

To be honest, I never use unit automatic orders in Civ. Neither for workers, nor for missionaries/executives or any other types
The AI is simply not good enough if you are the micromanagement type...
Could you test it out? The changes are up on the SVN

 

[ezzlar]

I have tested the Byzantines in the SVN. Wow. The first 200 years are a real pain in the butt! Numerous barbs as before combined with the plague and double spawn Sassanids with 2 movement. Not fun, very hard.

But afterwards, insane stability, I was running at +40 (not maxed on Manor House/Courthouses/Castles). Nice and huge region stability and high production. High income and settler spread. I feel really mighty!

 

[AbsintheRed]

Yeah, you are supposed to lose some of your territory, at least some cities, unless you play very well
So you cannot achieve that really mighty Byzantine Empire so easily, or too quick

 

[Folket]

To be honest, I never use unit automatic orders in Civ. Neither for workers, nor for missionaries/executives or any other types
The AI is simply not good enough if you are the micromanagement type...
Could you test it out? The changes are up on the SVN

Sorry, I have not been using SVN. Only the 1.1 version.

 

[ezzlar]

Yeah, you are supposed to lose some of your territory, at least some cities, unless you play very well
So you cannot achieve that really mighty Byzantine Empire so easily, or too quick

Then we should rethink some of the Byzantium concepts. Random points:

- Seljuk Crossbowmen and guisarmiers should only spawn during the last 2 turns of the Seljuk area. First waves should be only Heavy Cavalry.
- Between the last threat (Bulgarian around 690) and Seljuks (1060) you get about 370 years of preparation. That is too much time. Or not too severe threat.
- Seljuks spawn in groups of three. It used to be five.
- Change strength of Seljuks or make them Light cavalry? A Guisarmier with one or two promotions behind walls/castle/Pressburg castle can easily take out several Seljuks. +25% against polearm?
- A strong AI Seljuk could give UHV2 some meaning. Today you win by just playing along.
- AI Ottomans should start with 5-6 pikemen to defend against my SOD of knights.
- AI Bulgaria needs to be buffed. More defensive units at spawn. Maybe one extra settler.
- AI Arabia was very stable. I conquered Jerusalem, Tyre, Damascus and razed Al-Aqaba (during a few turns in the 1040). They stayed stable. Nice.

 

[SeekTruthFromFacts]

But just because you can enter foreign water doesnt mean that you can enter the cities? Hanseatic should get the ability if that is the case. Gonna check tonight!

This would be useful for (e.g.) one square of Viking water in between two German cities, or one square of French water in the English(-controlled) Channel. There's not much in the Middle Ages that such detailed control of the high seas could represent.

Apologies for butting into your conversation....

 

[ezzlar]

Sometimes I really dont get the stability system:

Playing as Arabia, I conquer Athinai (foreign, red), and stability goes from +36 to +40. I then give the city to the Ottomans and stability goes from +40 to +43. This cant be intended?

 

[Chep]

I think there needs to be a change to the late civs that start at war with others. Namely the Dutch and the Ottomans.

I just had my third try with the Dutch and this time it wasn't an angry Germany but "just" Spain who conquered Amsterdam in 1592. (I was again completely wiped out before 1600)

The feature that makes units join the "newer side" in a war the first few turns after a civ starts should (in my opinion) be activated for the player as well. There is just no way the Dutch can hold off a strong German, French or Spanish army in the first few dozen turns. And the Ottomans lose almost all of their forces to a Byzantine Stack of Doom if they're unlucky.
Sure, one can have games where the French & Germans are friendly towards the Dutch and Spain doesn't have open borders with France/Burgundy. Or games where there is no Byzantine Stack of Doom (or it is busy fighting the Arabs).
But thats just pure luck. And in my experience doesn't happen too often.

But fighting dozens highly promoted knights and other units with just your inexperienced starting units before you even have time to prepare some kind of defence? :/

 

[ezzlar]

The ancient civs have become too strong in the SVN. Stability is too high and the production penalty to low. And I dont know why, but settlement has really increased to strange places. Twice in a row I have seen Byzantium settle Crimea. And the AI conquers whole of Italy.

 

[Chep]

well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that. At least half of my "bad experiences" with the Dutch and the Ottomans are from pre-SVN-games.


One more thing:
I just started playing as Portugal and decided to raze Sevilla to weaken the Cordobans...but now all of Andalusia counts as a "natural province" for me.
Could the change from "potentially stable" to "historical area" be made if the player has owned a city in this province for at least 1 turn? because conquering+razing shouldn't really change the status of a province :/

 

[Komar]

And I dont know why, but settlement has really increased to strange places. Twice in a row I have seen Byzantium settle Crimea.

That's historical.

Two bugs noticed after last 3 SVN updates:
If France is destroyed and then re-appear, it's leader is Louis XIV even in early game.
Playing as Norse, can't keep Palermo and/or Neapolis even with plus-stability, after several turns they become indy.

 

[Chep]

I just finished a game with Spain (Monarch, latest SVN, 1075 or something like that):

it still feels like a bonus game
Spain is just awesome. By 1648 I had 18 colonies - no one else had even 1, I could have built more, but my research was to slow (and I had levees + protestantism everywhere by 1600^^). From the time I spawned until the historical victory I only lost out to 2 wonders (and one was my own stupidity^^)

I think the balancing Spain vs Cordoba is fine and also Spain vs Portugal seemed ok, maybe Portugal could do with 1-2 more units as they now start at war with a potentially strong Cordoba but I think it's okay.

The only minor nitpicks are:
- Barcelona revolted and tried to gain independe while I had a stability of 67, 5-6 turns before the game ended. I know these minor civs and their revolutions are in some way realistic but come on...stability 67 and they still try? and if they succeed I lose my 2nd (+3rd) cultural expansion + a lot of buildings...can't these revolts be limited to stability values lower than lets say 10 or maybe 20? (that should account for 80% of all game-situations apart from the ones close to the end)

- the other civs didn't really try to found protestantism. The first one to research Printing Press was (of course) Germany - around 1600, so if I hadn't researched it in the 1520s the Dutch would have founded Protestantism again.
Maybe there is some way to give the AI some sort of incentive to research it after 1500? because my research doubles during the time from 1490 to 1530 when I spread protestantism while the AI doesn't use this awesome boost.


edit:
to clarify: when playing with Cordoba you can usually easily rush Spain and destroy them. When playing with Spain you can usually take 2-4 of Cordobas cities. Sue for peace, wait untill you get armored lancers and then take the rest of Iberia. By 1050 you can easily own Iberia.
So while there is some room for "buffing the opposing site" both are able to kill the other when played by a human player. And when it's AI vs AI, usually Spain wins in ~40-50% of the games and in the others owns roughly half the pensinula which seems fine to me.

----
My first recommendation for a beginner is Venice but once you have gotten to know this great mod a little, go and try Spain.
You start conquering, then settling in peace untill Portugal spawns (which obviously is an insult to your greatness, so they have to die) and then you own a rich land and can go build wonders and colonies as much as you want. If you take some minor civs as vasalls you usually also get into some fights with France/England/Germany after 1450, so that you don't feel like you're playing simcity. It really feels like Civ in godmode

 

[Komar]

Last SVN changes about Spain are strange about balance - Blast Furnace at the start is "wait for workers - mine iron - upgrade swordsmen to heavy ones - go and kill". And the first tech to take is Plate Armor...
Now playing Spain gives me no chance to loose. What interest? What challenge?

 

[Chep]

Spain is and has always been one of the easier civs. In the older versions usually Cordoba was (almost) wiped out by barbarians around the time Spain started. Now they have 4+ cities on the Iberian peninsula, often defended with experienced archers.
Farriers or Blast Furnace could often be traded for Aristocracy. So essentially, it was: one more tech and weaker opponents.
With Cordoba it is no problem to wipe out the Spanish after they start and with Spain it is easy to destroy Cordoba. So?
Some civs are easier than others, some are harder (France, Ottomans, Genoa maybe).

Maybe there could be some sort of game mechanic that gives the AI additional units when attacked by the human player, but apart from that they are both play- and enjoyable in my opinion.

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How far along are the new civs? And will the victory conditions for the English be changed? I really would like to play them but hate to built useless cities allover the beautiful island. A "Controll provinces A, B, C" or something like "own at least X cities on the British Isles and Conquer Paris + province X" would feel much less limited/forced.(And maybe their UP? OR at least its description? I don't see the immediate relation between cottage economy and workshops)

I found a mistake:
I only recently started playing this mod in English, so please excuse me for not mentioning it earlier.
It should be "<City name> declared its independence." currently it states "it's independence".
"It's" could be correct if it said "<City name> declared it's independent" but that just sounds awkward.

 

[Komar]

So I usually had problems with Burgundy, now there is no problem at all.
Tech trade often need money, much money, and it is not the point - I said maiking powerful military now is much faster.

I'll try emperor...

 

[Chep]

another mistake:

when playing with Poland, the counter for the cities-UHV (2nd one) is in the display of the food-UHV (1st). Either the text or the counter should be shifted

Also it still says "controll 12 cities..." while it means "own 12 cities...." either vassalls should count or it should say the right thing. Because if you vassallize Lituania/Moscow/Kiev/Hungary while thinking "I only need to control these cities..." you can make the game much harder for yourself.

I only played untill 1350, one of these times I should finish a game with Poland but...it just is less fun than Kiev or Hungary. There is no stone to be had, you have to settle lots of cities in "foreign territory" and your land is not that good for the most part...
--------

I only really played Burgundy with the SVN. As with most civs: playing against them is rather easy, playing as them is as well. But they were quite okay overall. Not as fun as Spain, Kiev or Portugal but still...
Emperor isn't really "balanced" - for some civs it might actually be easier on Emperor because the barbs kill their competition but for others it can become impossible.

Germany, Spain, Burgundy, Venice, Austria, Hungary <-- these are the easiest civs in my opinion
Kiev, Byzantium, Bulgaria, Portugal <-- try these if the above are too "boring"

 

[AbsintheRed]

How far along are the new civs? And will the victory conditions for the English be changed? I really would like to play them but hate to built useless cities allover the beautiful island. A "Controll provinces A, B, C" or something like "own at least X cities on the British Isles and Conquer Paris + province X" would feel much less limited/forced.(And maybe their UP? OR at least its description? I don't see the immediate relation between cottage economy and workshops)

Something like own at least 10 cities on the British Isles and in some of the French provinces could work.

when playing with Poland, the counter for the cities-UHV (2nd one) is in the display of the food-UHV (1st). Either the text or the counter should be shifted

Also it still says "controll 12 cities..." while it means "own 12 cities...." either vassalls should count or it should say the right thing. Because if you vassallize Lituania/Moscow/Kiev/Hungary while thinking "I only need to control these cities..." you can make the game much harder for yourself.

I only recently started playing this mod in English, so please excuse me for not mentioning it earlier.
It should be "<City name> declared its independence." currently it states "it's independence".
"It's" could be correct if it said "<City name> declared it's independent" but that just sounds awkward.

Thanks, fixed all 3!

 

[AbsintheRed]

That's historical.

Two bugs noticed after last 3 SVN updates:
If France is destroyed and then re-appear, it's leader is Louis XIV even in early game.
Playing as Norse, can't keep Palermo and/or Neapolis even with plus-stability, after several turns they become indy.

Actually I don't mind the leader switch if a civ is respawned.
What was your stability exactly? Secession may even happen with relatively low positive stability, if you have some cities very far away.

Sometimes I really dont get the stability system:

Playing as Arabia, I conquer Athinai (foreign, red), and stability goes from +36 to +40. I then give the city to the Ottomans and stability goes from +40 to +43. This cant be intended?

Sounds like a bug
Do you have a savegame?