RFC Europe playtesting feedback thread

[FakeShady]

Ok now that its in the Beta stage, its time to say this: Venice's UHVs are too easy and unhistorical. A 3rd UHV for Venice to collect gold would be nice. I believe i have said all these before.

 

[Feyaria]

In March, I proposed a very easy solution to the german-die-on-spawn-problem.

A picture of a typical german start is here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9054773&postcount=3303

And an easy solution is here, only 1 line of code to add:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9054868&postcount=3305

After this change, germany never dies. Its not the best solution, but it should be implemented till you can find a better one. Its not good to let such a major bug exist in the game just because you cant decide how to fix it.


And this bug isnt fixed yet either, its not that important, just as a reminder.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9052450&postcount=539

 

[merijn_v1]

In March, I proposed a very easy solution to the german-die-on-spawn-problem.

A picture of a typical german start is here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9054773&postcount=3303

And an easy solution is here, only 1 line of code to add:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9054868&postcount=3305

After this change, germany never dies. Its not the best solution, but it should be implemented till you can find a better one. Its not good to let such a major bug exist in the game just because you cant decide how to fix it.

In your fix you would add a Tagmata in Frankfurt. But a Tagmata was a typical unit for Byzantium, certainly not Germany. Maybe a guisearmier (spelling?) would fit better.

 

[Wessel V1]

But that wouldn't do the trick. For now, a free tagmata is I think the best solution, though a "kill all barbarians near Frankfurt" could also work.

 

[kochman]

But that wouldn't do the trick. For now, a free tagmata is I think the best solution, though a "kill all barbarians near Frankfurt" could also work.

Deleting the barbarians from that place seems the best and easiest solution... Why would you just not do that instead of adding a unit to fight them off?

 

[sedna17]

My two main thoughts for this problem are as people have suggested (1) Gift an immobile defender to rising civs or (2) Make the rise code more aggressive about flipping units.

Option (1) is nice because it makes it slightly harder for a human to game the system and hurt a rising Civ this way. On the other hand, because this phenomena can occur for most Civs (Germany is just most problematic) a full solution would that many civs receive a period-appropriate defended. Also note that this defender needs to be immobile. The code is set up to give free units only at the start of a players turn -- i.e. the AI can always move a gifted unit out of their city right away (before the barbarians get to move).

Option (2) is therefore the solution I am leaning towards. The problem is that currently the code processes things in this order:
on new turn:
RiseAndFall <-- spawn player units and flip barbs/indies
Barbarians <-- spawn barb units

Basically, the problem is that barbs can show up after the code has already "cleared" the area by converting all barbs within striking distance to the rising side's team. I think that switching the order in which these things happen will help a lot, but I need to do some extensive testing to make sure that there aren't unforeseen consequences.

 

[kochman]

Option 2 sounds the best... that way it can prevent this from destroying any civ at any time directly upon spawn.
Of course, you could grant an immovable "imperial guard" type of tagmata unit to every civ, probably at the expense of a unit they would already get... but even if you did that (Option 1), technically, the barbs could still defeat said unit X% of the time... better just to eradicate it completely through Option 2, I think.

 

[KaiserBenjamin]

Just played the new Beta as the Arabs for the first time. Byzantines were easy to plow over. Captured Constantinople before the Great Schism and took the Bulgarians as a prize vassal. Converted them to Islam and this was sufficient to get 25%. I thought, "wow, this was pretty easy," and leaned back with a stack of troops near Jerusalem to deal with Crusaders.

...

Then the Seljuks invaded. Oh. My. God. They just keep coming! The first eight or so were easily defeated but wave after wave overwhelmed my poor defenders. I lost everything in the Anatolian peninsula, even Constantinople. And the first crusade appeared at the worst possible time, making it impossible to move my army out of Holy Land.

None of this should be registered as a complaint, because I took a history course that covered this period and my feeling of horror seems pretty much like what the people at the time must have been experienced. We need to get some strategy guides online. I should have been building more troops instead of world wonders and research structures!

 

[merijn_v1]

Just played the new Beta as the Arabs for the first time. Byzantines were easy to plow over. Captured Constantinople before the Great Schism and took the Bulgarians as a prize vassal. Converted them to Islam and this was sufficient to get 25%. I thought, "wow, this was pretty easy," and leaned back with a stack of troops near Jerusalem to deal with Crusaders.

...

Then the Seljuks invaded. Oh. My. God. They just keep coming! The first eight or so were easily defeated but wave after wave overwhelmed my poor defenders. I lost everything in the Anatolian peninsula, even Constantinople. And the first crusade appeared at the worst possible time, making it impossible to move my army out of Holy Land.

None of this should be registered as a complaint, because I took a history course that covered this period and my feeling of horror seems pretty much like what the people at the time must have been experienced. We need to get some strategy guides online. I should have been building more troops instead of world wonders and research structures!

I think some more defenders will help. I recommend mounted units. You should also build walls (and if possible castles) in the cities that are closest to the Seljuk spawn zone. (Sinop, Halab, Antakya, Tarsus, Ceasarea) You should position your defenders in these cities as well.
For the crusaders, also build walls and castle in Jerusalem. Then you need only 4 units in it. The AI won't attack you because the chance to win is too small. (the last thing could be fix, I didn't play the Arabs for some time) The units I recommend for Jerusalem are: 1 Guisearmier, 2 Crossbowmans, 1 Maceman. (To be sure you're defended enough, build 1 or more Catapults and maybe some mounted units.)

 

[Krschtschn]

Knights are your best bet against the Seljuks as you will need them against the mongols about a hundred years later. If you don't have knights use guisarmers with castles. But again: Knights are much better, as you will need them against the mongols and you don't have to sit in your cities to defend. Guisarmers just can't do that. And they will get slaughtered by the mongols. You will need about three defenders per city, or more in citys east of ceasarea and sinope.

 

[merijn_v1]

Knights are your best bet against the Seljuks as you will need them against the mongols about a hundred years later. If you don't have knights use guisarmers with castles. But again: Knights are much better, as you will need them against the mongols and you don't have to sit in your cities to defend. Guisarmers just can't do that. And they will get slaughtered by the mongols. You will need about three defenders per city, or more in citys east of ceasarea and sinope.

But to have knights when the Seljuks come isn't very easy. But IF you have them, I agree that is the best option.

 

[kochman]

Just played the new Beta as the Arabs for the first time. Byzantines were easy to plow over. Captured Constantinople before the Great Schism and took the Bulgarians as a prize vassal. Converted them to Islam and this was sufficient to get 25%. I thought, "wow, this was pretty easy," and leaned back with a stack of troops near Jerusalem to deal with Crusaders.

...

Then the Seljuks invaded. Oh. My. God. They just keep coming! The first eight or so were easily defeated but wave after wave overwhelmed my poor defenders. I lost everything in the Anatolian peninsula, even Constantinople. And the first crusade appeared at the worst possible time, making it impossible to move my army out of Holy Land.

None of this should be registered as a complaint, because I took a history course that covered this period and my feeling of horror seems pretty much like what the people at the time must have been experienced. We need to get some strategy guides online. I should have been building more troops instead of world wonders and research structures!

This is awesome!
Building more troops instead of wonders is so often the answer to any defeat in this game, as really the only way you will lose midstream is militarily.

 

[KaiserBenjamin]

This is awesome!
Building more troops instead of wonders is so often the answer to any defeat in this game, as really the only way you will lose midstream is militarily.

I like to have one city with all my great general settled, the +100% military production wonder, and anything else that will either increase production or unit experience. Then I just have that one city building troops constantly and they come out every other turn with something like 11 experience.

But in this case, that wasn't sufficient to protect me, even though I got knights the turn after the Seljuks appeared.

 

[The Turk]

Although yes the Seljuk invasions are amazing! I felt that the Mongol invasion was very undertoned, and although yes I was attacked a few times, it never did as much damage as the Seljuk's did; while in reality the Mongols were a HUGE threat in the Middle East led by Helegu Khan, who quickly swept through the Middle East and took over huge swaths of land, but in the game they are not represented as much, I think having a few more spawn would be better.

Also since I have never played a Russian type civ, I was wondering if the Mongols also spawn there at an earlier date? Because historically the Golden Horde controlled Russia for quite a while, also they reached all the way to Poland, (which I have never played before either), but something tells me that they are not at all affected by the Mongols.

So overall I think the Mongol invasion needs to be rethought of, bascially adding a lot more Mongol Keshiks would be a good idea.

Also I was wondering what the Welsh Longbowmen and the Scottish Highlanders do exactly? Whats the point of creating whole new units when they never really show up on the map?

PS.

 

[kochman]

Also since I have never played a Russian type civ, I was wondering if the Mongols also spawn there at an earlier date? Because historically the Golden Horde controlled Russia for quite a while, also they reached all the way to Poland, (which I have never played before either), but something tells me that they are not at all affected by the Mongols.

Your completely random assumption is not only wrong, it's inaccurate.
The Mongols were a bigger problem for the Kievan Rus.

In this mod, the Mongols do some serious damage, often causing the Eastern Empires of Europe to fall.

 

[KaiserBenjamin]

Your completely random assumption is not only wrong, it's inaccurate.
The Mongols were a bigger problem for the Kievan Rus.

In this mod, the Mongols do some serious damage, often causing the Eastern Empires of Europe to fall.

It's true, Kievan Rus is completely overrun about 2/3 of the time.

 

[fdgsgds]

It's true, Kievan Rus is completely overrun about 2/3 of the time.

And if they aren't, they become super powerful

And yes, Turk, the Welsh and Scottish units spawn as barbarians. By placing your cities correctly, you can easily make it so that they can only get a few units in.

 

[fireclaw722]

Option 2 sounds the best... that way it can prevent this from destroying any civ at any time directly upon spawn.
Of course, you could grant an immovable "imperial guard" type of tagmata unit to every civ, probably at the expense of a unit they would already get... but even if you did that (Option 1), technically, the barbs could still defeat said unit X% of the time... better just to eradicate it completely through Option 2, I think.

Don't forget the barb free wins!

Also since I have never played a Russian type civ, I was wondering if the Mongols also spawn there at an earlier date? Because historically the Golden Horde controlled Russia for quite a while, also they reached all the way to Poland, (which I have never played before either), but something tells me that they are not at all affected by the Mongols.

Usually Austria, Byzantines(more of the Seljuks though), Kievans, Polish, and Hungarians(Moscuvites too, but they usually arrive when the Mongol Empire is/has advanced/-ing too far) have problems with the Mongol barbs.

 

[KaiserBenjamin]

I won my game. I went back just a few turns and built some walls and a few more knights. Turns out that's all it took. Stability was a real problem, but I was able to Golden Age myself out of the century or so where I teetered on the edge of collapse. I vassalized Cordoba, Bulgaria, Turkey, and Poland and combined with the right civic combination, that kept me afloat.

I almost lost at the end because I waited too long to go for Africa and I was started at the 15 or so defending units in Tunis and had a momentary panic as I had to grab every available ship and put on every abled body soldier to head west. I captured the last required city with one turn to spare. *whew*

Fun stuff, the new leaderheads add a nice bit of flavor. The only bug that came up the entire time was one Great General that still had the TXT in his name.

 

[merijn_v1]

Also I was wondering what the Welsh Longbowmen and the Scottish Highlanders do exactly? Whats the point of creating whole new units when they never really show up on the map?

They are barbarians in England. I guess you never played England either. If you had, you should be able to see them.