RFC Europe Wonders

[Whitefire]

Would the Protestant Reformation then render the happiness bonus of all relics obsolete?

If it is chosen as a state religion, yes. But there are some fun things you can do to compensate.

 

[jessiecat]

If it is chosen as a state religion, yes. But there are some fun things you can do to compensate.

Like Cromwell's troops smashing up icons, trashing churches and melting down the silver for profit. Great fun, and profitable too!

 

[jessiecat]

Getting back to Wonders for a moment, my list of proposed Wonders to be included in the next test version is as follows. We have art for these and hopefully they should be easy to code as they replace existing wonders.

The Dome of the Rock (replaces the Taj Mahal)
The Round Church (replaces Stonehenge)
The Alhambra Palace (replaces the Parthenon)
Krak des Chevaliers (replaces the Great Wall, free castles per city)
The Monastery of Cluny (replaces the University of Sankore)
The Basilica San Marco (replaces the Temple of Artemis)
The Giralda Tower (replaces the Great Lighthouse)
Leonardos Inventions (as in Civ3)

Can we agree on these and continue discussions about the rest of the list?

 

[Algeroth]

The Giralda Tower (replaces the Great Lighthouse)

I don't want to be mean but I can't find any reltion between this tower and naval trade.

Leonardos Inventions (as in Civ3)

Is the italian renesance known for mass producing new types of unitits?

 

[jessiecat]

I don't want to be mean but I can't find any reltion between this tower and naval trade.

Is the italian renesance known for mass producing new types of unitits?

The Tower was suggested as a great wonder to represent Spain. It doesn't have to replace the Great Lighthouse. The Belem Tower in Portugal would be better for that. Maybe it should replace the Oracle instead
(1 free tech?) Or what do you suggest for a Spanish wonder that fits this period? And what should it replace?

I think Leonardos Inventions (or workshop as in Civ3) should boost science rather than make units cheaper. It could replace the Great Library ( 2 free scientists?) Maybe people disagree with that. Just my opinion.

 

[Algeroth]

LI- Free specialists are good, but I would suggest free scientist + artist instated. If we wants the "Renaissance Wonder" Piazza della Signoria could be good candidate, but i'm fine with the Leonardo workshop.

Belem Tower could be good replacement for GL. And I'm not sure if the Tower should replace something. I was going to suggest Paya, but it is replaced by the Golden Bull. If we would implementing new effects for wonders, the tower could enable culture generation from nonstate religions.

 

[jessiecat]

LI- Free specialists are good, but I would suggest free scientist + artist instated. If we wants the "Renaissance Wonder" Piazza della Signoria could be good candidate, but i'm fine with the Leonardo workshop.

Belem Tower could be good replacement for GL. And I'm not sure if the Tower should replace something. I was going to suggest Paya, but it is replaced by the Golden Bull. If we would implementing new effects for wonders, the tower could enable culture generation from nonstate religions.

Leonardo's Inventions giving 1 free scientist and 1 free artist sounds good to me.

It would seem odd though to have a Spanish WW enabling culture generation from non-state religions when their UHV requires them to completely extinguish non-state religions.

 

[Algeroth]

Oh, the Tower is for spain and not for Andalusia? Ok. could you post what wonders we have as Spain and which as a Andalusian?

 

[jessiecat]

Oh, the Tower is for spain and not for Andalusia? Ok. could you post what wonders we have as Spain and which as a Andalusian?

Its just that we wanted to have a World Wonder from each of our civs. So far the only one suggested which is Spanish is the Giralda Tower. It was built originally by the Moors as the minaret for the Great Mosque of Seville but I guess everybody thinks of it as being Spanish now.
The two likely ones for Cordoba are the "Alhambra Palace" in Granada and the "Gardens of Al Andalus"
(replacing the Hanging Gardens) to represent the Arab irrigation and agricultural revolution in Andalusia during the 9th.-11th.Cs.

 

[Algeroth]

Then I suggest Escorial as a wonder for Spain that prevents negative stability from poor economic rating.

 

[jessiecat]

Then I suggest Escorial as a wonder for Spain that prevents negative stability from poor economic rating.

That's a very good suggestion. The Escorial Palace sounds great to me.

 

[Whitefire]

I'm pretty sure that having both the Leaning Tower and the National Epic in the game is going to cause a major balance issue. Especially if the Burgundians can tech fast enough to grab the LT. You might want to change the LT's power to +2Engineer specialists or something.

 

[Cethegus]

I'm pretty sure that having both the Leaning Tower and the National Epic in the game is going to cause a major balance issue. Especially if the Burgundians can tech fast enough to grab the LT. You might want to change the LT's power to +2Engineer specialists or something.

I second the idea of changing some wonders' effects but it has to be postponed until we come into agreement with which wonders to add in the first place. Are we to simply replace the already existing wonders with different graphics, names and hammer requirement or come up with new wonders entirely?

 

[sedna17]

I prefer to simply borrow pre-existing wonder-effects and slap on a new name and art. Jessiecat's post listing wonders does this. Benefit: it's easy for me, and the current wonder effects are fairly well balanced/play-tested already.

 

[Cethegus]

I prefer to simply borrow pre-existing wonder-effects and slap on a new name and art. Jessiecat's post listing wonders does this. Benefit: it's easy for me, and the current wonder effects are fairly well balanced/play-tested already.

Perfect points there. I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants a little more variety to distinguish RFCE from other Civ IV mod(comp)s but that's true, messing with them will prove to be difficult.

If most of the wonder effects are left unchanged, will the replacing wonders appear in the tech tree around the same time their original counterparts will? If Wonder A replaces Great Lighthouse (+2 naval trade routes), will WA appear fairly soon from the start of the game or will it be delayed until later than "Masonry" + "Sailing"? What about other wonders?

 

[st.lucifer]

I prefer to simply borrow pre-existing wonder-effects and slap on a new name and art. Jessiecat's post listing wonders does this. Benefit: it's easy for me, and the current wonder effects are fairly well balanced/play-tested already.

One counterargument to that - the wonder effects are balanced and playtested for the original game, with availability and obsolescence balanced into the equation. We're changing those things, as well as access to resources and UHV-oriented requirements. As such, they're no longer balanced.

I understand the arguments for using existing wonder functions, but we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that they'll fit in perfectly when the map and tech tree are so different.

 

[mitsho]

One counterargument to that - the wonder effects are balanced and playtested for the original game, with availability and obsolescence balanced into the equation. We're changing those things, as well as access to resources and UHV-oriented requirements. As such, they're no longer balanced.

I understand the arguments for using existing wonder functions, but we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking that they'll fit in perfectly when the map and tech tree are so different.

One more argument for same wonders: The entry bar is lower for new players, (because they know the old effects and it would thus be easier for them to calculate the effects, even if in a new setting).

 

[Cethegus]

One more argument for same wonders: The entry bar is lower for new players, (because they know the old effects and it would thus be easier for them to calculate the effects, even if in a new setting).

I was thinking of this also. This very thing keeps me from trying some mods and scenarios because I'm not "in" the game as much as I am on regular CIV. I sympathize with this argument but I can't help but wanting some more from RFCE than just different graphics for the same effects. Would changing up to around 50% of the wonder effects sound unreasonable to fit our needs and historical purposes? I don't think we need a national wonder Great Palace Versailles for example. Around 15 of the estimated 30 world wonders keeping the same effects as their counterparts do in unmodded Civ IV is quite a lot of familiar effects and sounds fair enough to me. It's not like giving essentially the same thing at another point will confuse new players away completely, right? Think of RFC Pyramids and Krak des Chevaliers suggestion (free castle in every city). Not that big of a change that one couldn't adapt to after a few playthroughs.

Long story short, RFCE's demands have changed from those of regular Civ IV. For the sake of freshness and balance, surely we need to adapt to the made changes appropriately. This includes changes in wonder effects as well - besdies, I don't see how much more damaging it can be than the great changes you've made to civics, techs, units and buildings already. Time to seek new balance.

 

[mitsho]

Yes, but we are already changing a lot already: The Tech Tree is new, the unit system is also new, altough it orientates itself at the Vanilla thing, we have new civs, new uu, new unique powers, etc. ... The wonders and building things is something we can quite easily keep "alike", so I'd advocate that. 15 out of 30 Wonders with the same effect is quite a much of new things to learn, so I would up it a bit (but 25% defence is pretty much alike = free castle in every city, so it can count as the same). It is important though that the new effects are spread evenly and do not cluster.

PS: An idea, completely unrelated: How do we simulate the Crusades? I know it is much to late to implement a new civ, but would a Crusader STate civ popping up in the Middle East not be neat. COuld interact nicely with Arabia (UHV) and the Turks... Ok, then not. (second civ proposal of me that does not succeed, first one was the Confederacy (Switzerland))

 

[Whitefire]

I think Crusades would work well as an Event. Like the "Horse Whisperer" quest in vanilla. You can have different levels of bonuses depending on how well the Crusade went.