RFC Europe Wonders

[youtien]

We can make great people as some wonder's requirement to limit wonder-spamming.

For example: when a GP becomes a saint, he leaves his body on the tile. That body is a unit that can be picked up and "drop" in cities like FFH. When dropped in city, it becomes a building that gives 1 relic, and is required to build San Marco Basilica, San Basil's Cathedral, etc..

We can make San Marco's body as this type of unit, put it on where he was. This way, Venice would have to rob it, or get a saint by themselves to build the San Marco Basilica.

Marco Polo's embassy: when a great merchant completes a trade mission in the east(or anywhere), a "great merchant's legacy" appears in his homecity or your capital. That legacy can also be moved, and is required to build the embassy.

This way, all kinds of GP would have their use - enable wonders when they finishes their "quest", or enable them to directly build it. Currently Great Artist has nearly no use.

Also, I'd like to enable settled GP to "leave" city for further use. For example: Sistine Chapel, requires a great artist in city. Leonardo's invention requires a GA and a GE. Enable spy to buy or kidnap settled great people. Or, let Florence spawn great artists that can be hired in mercenary screen, for a high price. Yeah, why can't we hire great people?

 

[The Turk]

Please remove the Masajid Al-Haram from spawning in Damascus, and instead have the Ummayad Mosque (or Great Mosque of Damascus) be spawned in Damascus as the holy building for Islam, it is a lot more historically accurate.

Also another thought that I had was why not incorporate the RFCC mod idea of having some wonders religious/type specific, for example have the Krak de Chevilers, require a Catholic nation owning Jerusalem; or you could have the Topkapi Palace require Islam and it must be built in a Capital city; or you could have Notre Dame require Catholicism

Do you guys understand, I think this would add a more historical approach to the wonders in the mod.

Also I think it would be a good idea to include Paganism in this mod, but I will direct that question to the right authorities on another thread

 

[merijn_v1]

Please remove the Masajid Al-Haram from spawning in Damascus, and instead have the Ummayad Mosque (or Great Mosque of Damascus) be spawned in Damascus as the holy building for Islam, it is a lot more historically accurate.

Also another thought that I had was why not incorporate the RFCC mod idea of having some wonders religious/type specific, for example have the Krak de Chevilers, require a Catholic nation owning Jerusalem; or you could have the Topkapi Palace require Islam and it must be built in a Capital city; or you could have Notre Dame require Catholicism

Do you guys understand, I think this would add a more historical approach to the wonders in the mod.

Also I think it would be a good idea to include Paganism in this mod, but I will direct that question to the right authorities on another thread

We had almost all wonders with a religion as requirement. But that ruins the gameplay very bad. So we changed it back. But some wonder still have a religion as requirement.

 

[The Turk]

How does that ruin gameplay at all? And it dosen't ONLY have to be religious requirements, like for example I HATE seeing the Krak de Chevliers being built in some random place, it would be more interesting to have it be built ONLY in a Crusader held Jerusalem/Sour. But overall I don't understand why you could not have religious requirements its a great idea.

Also would you incorporate my other idea into this mod?

 

[merijn_v1]

How does that ruin gameplay at all? And it dosen't ONLY have to be religious requirements, like for example I HATE seeing the Krak de Chevliers being built in some random place, it would be more interesting to have it be built ONLY in a Crusader held Jerusalem/Sour. But overall I don't understand why you could not have religious requirements its a great idea.

Also would you incorporate my other idea into this mod?

If you want the Krak on aviable in Jerusalem for crusaders I prefer that is must be pre-build. The only difference is that the Arabs get it before the crusaders. (they will almost allways get it afterwards because they can capture Jerusalem very easy, except when the crusaders never succeed in capturing Jerusalem, then it will be impossible for EVERYONE to get the Krak) It also saves some time for the crusade leader to build it.

BTW, the Krak already requires catholicism. (an example of a wonder that does need a religion.)

I didn't say that a religion as a requirement is bad, but I said it isn't good for all buildings. I even like it that the Krak and Crusader Corps (and some other wonders) need Catholicism and the Round Church need Orthodoxy and the Tomb of Al Khalid (and some other wonders) need Islam.

Paganism is represented by the Paganism Shrine in this mod. Paganism means ALL non-christian religions. That is too much to represent as one religion. And for me, also too unimportant.

 

[ezzlar]

Sistine Chapel give a too high culture bonus! Since you usually have 3-4 religious buildings in your cities you get a huuuge boost (with the +5 cult bonus).

 

[AbsintheRed]

I also find the Sistine Chapel overpowered
There isn't as much culture boosting improvements in the game as in vanilla BtS, and religions are more important in RFCE
So the +5 culture per religious building really is huge

I would change the bonuses to +2 or 3 per religious building and +1 per specialist

 

[ezzlar]

What does Copernicus observatory do? "+1 specialist per town", I didnt notice anything when I built it...

 

[Daffy]

You'd get a free specialist in that city for each cottaged tile that reaches 'town' status. Somewhat like the 'National Park' in rfc. I'm not sure if you have to work the tile to get the specialist, but I assume so.
Free Peasantry & Limited Monarchy are quite useful for getting/having them
The 'Palazzo San Giorgio' gives 1 free specialst per city on the continent.

 

[ezzlar]

Why does the Round church have a negative effect of giving diplomatic penalties to civs with same religion? No other wonders have negative effects. I think it should be removed since you are at bad terms with everyone before the great schism. But also after...

 

[3Miro]

Why does the Round church have a negative effect of giving diplomatic penalties to civs with same religion? No other wonders have negative effects. I think it should be removed since you are at bad terms with everyone before the great schism. But also after...

Because it is historically accurate. The Round Church is a symbol of the political, religious, social and scholar changes brought by Boris (father) and Simeon (son). (think of this as the equivalent of the "free specialist" bonus of the Statue of Liberty).

Boris realized that a non-Christian Bulgaria cannot survive in Christian Europe, so he set forth to convert the country to Christianity. This had the double goal of securing peace with Byzantium and uniting the divided Bulgas and Slavs. At the same time, the Byzantines naturally jumped at the opportunity to extend as much political and cultural influence in Bulgaria as they can. However, Boris wouldn't have that and instead of accepting Greek as the official language, he accepted Slavic and started a huge campaign of translating religious and classical Greek texts into Slavic (philosophies of Plato and Socrates and so on). Hence the +10% science bonus.

Simeon went further than that, declaring himself Tsar (equal to the Byzantine Emperor) and making the Bulgarian archbishop Patriarch (equal to the Constantinople one). This lead to the bloodiest period in Byzantine-Bulgarian wars. Neither side has much of remorse in killing the other, hence the "no war with brother in faith" and "no diplo benefit".

Simeon's son enjoyed a long period of peace, however, as soon as he dies, Bulgaria was invaded by the other Orthodox nation: Kiev. Hence, you cannot have the Round Church and hope for peace and good relations with other Orthodox nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_I_of_Bulgaria

 

[ezzlar]

But you also get the penalty against catholic nations since they are counted as same religion.

 

[3Miro]

But you also get the penalty against catholic nations since they are counted as same religion.

Yeah, I didn't think of that earlier. I will fix it for Beta 6.

 

[Tigranes]

Again my apologies for dusting off the old thread. Perhaps we should keep everything in Beta 12 talk? Anyways, I was just wondering why do we have 2 great French Palaces? Château de Versailles and Château de Fontainebleau? They both Palaces, they both French. I get that one represent the system of absolute monarchy and the other one French Renaissance, but do we really need them BOTH?

On one hand we already have too many palaces. We also have many French Wonders. On the other hand some civs don't have a single wonder to serve as a cultural "business card" representing them in this mod -- Lithuania, for example. In addition the mod about Europe cannot ignore icons like Galileo Galilei (Renaissance) or J.S. Bach (well, it is Baroque, but still can fit somewhere).

Some might say Copernicus represents Galileo and other Renaissance scientists -- but Galilei deserves a separate Wonder.

Galileo has been called the "father of modern observational astronomy", the "father of modern physics", the "father of science", and "the Father of Modern Science". According to Stephen Hawking, "Galileo, perhaps more than any other single person, was responsible for the birth of modern science".

We could come up with some cool ideas about Galileo Wonder -- can we code it so that you can see the research of all the known civs? (without other espionage advantages).

If you guys decide to go the "clutural business card" route -- the list of Lithuania's landmarks are here.

 

[rrosen]

For a Galileo wonder: how about giving all your units +1 sight promotion? Courtesy of the Galilean Telescope, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galilean_telescope#Galileo.27s_telescope The term Galilean Telescope is still widely applied within the optics community today.

 

[Tigranes]

If I understand it right -- you guys are planning to change the effect of the Leaning Tower? But why? We have so many possibilities for free specialists producing great people points that a national wonder feels like over-kill. Civs like Dutch already have their rate increased a more than any wonder would do. On the other hand most great people of this time frame were Italian (Rhye must had some famous ancestor during the Renaissance I am sure ) -- so it is not unrealistic to give this boosting ability to one civ only via World Wonder, rather than National Wonder.

If you really want another ability for LT make it to produce 2 free citizen in every city -- free citizens are very cool

 

[civ_king]

Again my apologies for dusting off the old thread. Perhaps we should keep everything in Beta 12 talk? Anyways, I was just wondering why do we have 2 great French Palaces? Château de Versailles and Château de Fontainebleau? They both Palaces, they both French. I get that one represent the system of absolute monarchy and the other one French Renaissance, but do we really need them BOTH?

On one hand we already have too many palaces. We also have many French Wonders. On the other hand some civs don't have a single wonder to serve as a cultural "business card" representing them in this mod -- Lithuania, for example. In addition the mod about Europe cannot ignore icons like Galileo Galilei (Renaissance) or J.S. Bach (well, it is Baroque, but still can fit somewhere).

Some might say Copernicus represents Galileo and other Renaissance scientists -- but Galilei deserves a separate Wonder. We could come up with some cool ideas about Galileo Wonder -- can we code it so that you can see the research of all the known civs? (without other espionage advantages).

If you guys decide to go the "clutural business card" route -- the list of Lithuania's landmarks are here.

We could have Versailles be changed to Peterhof

Of the list of Lithuanian landmarks only two could be wonders, Gediminas' Tower and Trakai Island Castle

 

[Depravo]

Versailles really needs to be a wonder - it was a huge, age-defining project directed from the player's perspective.

 

[ezzlar]

I think it is time for the nerf-bat, here are some candidates:

- Kazimieres, lower gold bonus and produce judaism spread?
- Sistine Chapel, to big culture boost
- Leonardos workshop, lower to +25% hammers
- Spread the wonders in Renaissance art since once you get there all the wonders are yours in a few turns
- La Mezquita, lower to +1 gold per building

 

[AbsintheRed]

I think it is time for the nerf-bat, here are some candidates:

- Kazimieres, lower gold bonus and produce judaism spread?
- Sistine Chapel, to big culture boost
- Leonardos workshop, lower to +25% hammers
- Spread the wonders in Renaissance art since once you get there all the wonders are yours in a few turns
- La Mezquita, lower to +1 gold per building

Yeah, agree with lowering the bonuses generally. Balancing the wonders is long due on my todo list
Not sure about Leonardo's Workshop though. It's not that overpowered IMO
I think the worst are the ones with global effect, which add bonus to all your cities
And yeah, Renaissance Art is way too powerful with all those awesome wonders
As you said, if the player research it fairly early, he/she will likely get most of them