RFC Europe Wonders

[merijn_v1]

3. We can introduce a generic resource similar to Atlantic Access, just call it North America Access, South America Access (the central one may be part of either North or South), then Africa Access (for the Cape Towns, or maybe remove the African one) and Asian Access. Those, however, will not be hidden, they will work exactly the same as Atlantic Access.

Then their will be at least 3 Access' near all colonial countries. So the Netherlands gets 2 more resources. (so a more powerfull Netherlands) IMO that's too much. And to give a country just 1 of those isn't good either, you have 2-3 of each on the whole map. So you can only build colonies of one direction. And Gibraltar isn't a good AA-city
anymore, because it has just access to 1 direction.

 

[3Miro]

Then their will be at least 3 Access' near all colonial countries. So the Netherlands gets 2 more resources. (so a more powerfull Netherlands) IMO that's too much. And to give a country just 1 of those isn't good either, you have 2-3 of each on the whole map. So you can only build colonies of one direction. And Gibraltar isn't a good AA-city
anymore, because it has just access to 1 direction.

The North/South America Access and the others would be provided via colonies. There will be no such resources on the map, only countries with a colony in North America will get the North America Access. The new resources will not be requirements for colonies, they will just give a small production boost. The idea is that once England builds Virginia (for example) they will go for Florida and other colonies in the NA and once Spain builds the Aztec Conquest, they will get easier access to SA and that way the world will have some zones of control.

England can build Brazil even if Spain gets all the other South American projects.

 

[jessiecat]

How about this:

1. There will be two generic companies, East Company, required for Asian and African colonies and a West Company, required for American colonies.

2. The new projects, "Conquest of Inca" and "Conquest of the Aztec" will not require TC and that should cover Spain.

3. We can introduce a generic resource similar to Atlantic Access, just call it North America Access, South America Access (the central one may be part of either North or South), then Africa Access (for the Cape Towns, or maybe remove the African one) and Asian Access. Those, however, will not be hidden, they will work exactly the same as Atlantic Access.

1. Since at least five European colonizers actually had a East India Conpany and a West India Company out of about 8 colonizers in our game then I really don't see the problem with using those names as generic ones. I prefer them as they are.
2. I have no problem with those 2 projects not requiring a trading company. In fact I have no objection to them being restricted to Spain only, as sort of Spanish national wonders. (That'll make Michael happy.)
3. All civs will have to gain access to the Atlantic Ocean whatever colony they want to build. So why not keep it as Atlantic Access. No need to call it something else.
4. It's important to remember that trading companies were formed historically to develop specific colonies, as I described above. It's very important that most of them require a trading company to be built. But if you want to make it easier by not requiring a specific company then that's up to you.

 

[3Miro]

Aztec and Inca should be available to everyone (with AA).

For the resources, I don't want to remove AA, just add more access resources to it. The others will not be required for projects, but will only provide production boost.

 

[Michael Vick]

I appreciate the proposal but the Aztecs and Incas should be available to everybody.

Yes, I like 3Miro's NA/SA resource idea, this is what I had in mind when I proposed the whole border colony thing. The intention being that it should be easier for the French to settle another part of Canada if they already have Quebec, and slightly harder for the empty-handed British, and many other situations like this.

Maybe this is what you had in mind.
Hispaniola, Cuba, Jamaica, (whatever else we add) provide Caribbean access. Cuba provides Central America Access.
Mexico/Aztec provides NA, SA, and Pacific Access
Peru/Inca, Brazil, the Guyanas?, provide SA access.
Virginia, New England, Hudson Bay, Quebec, Louisiana, (whatever else we add) provide NA access.

I don't think the African projects should provide access to each other, since the powers that controlled them varied greatly and we don't want a monopoly on slaves.

Same with Trading Posts, Same with treaty ports, in fact I only see this as applicable to America.

On the trading companies, my only request is that trading companies be required for maybe the second half of the projects, like the colonies that start appearing in the 1600's. If that's not possible, since Spain is the only colonizer without historical trading companies, we could give them like a colonial UP or something that forgoes the need for a trading company. The Power of the Encomiendas or something?
No Trading Companies necessary, and all colonies provide +2 wealth?

 

[merijn_v1]

Aztec and Inca should be available to everyone (with AA).

For the resources, I don't want to remove AA, just add more access resources to it. The others will not be required for projects, but will only provide production boost.

Example:
The Dutch had colonies in NA (Nieuw Amsterdam, now New York), SA (Surinam) and Asia (Jakarta, Australia (this isn't a colony, but maybe it could included as well)). So the Dutch should get all 3 types. And more European countries had colonies all over the world. So they should also get the 3 access'.

 

[Michael Vick]

We might not end up with enough places for those colonies. Currently there's Virginia, and I've already proposed New England, where would Nieuw Amsterdam fit in?
Right now there's no colony for Suriname, I might propose Guyana.
Is there currently a Jakarta colony? I'm not sure myself but probably not.
Australia is just Gold Coast right now, firmly British in history, no?

Anyway, I think you're confused as to what 3Miro is saying. There won't be three different kinds of access on the map, other additional access resources which will only speed up production are going to be provided by nearby colonies, off the map. That's what I understood.

 

[Verily]

We might not end up with enough places for those colonies. Currently there's Virginia, and I've already proposed New England, where would Nieuw Amsterdam fit in?
Right now there's no colony for Suriname, I might propose Guyana.

It doesn't have to be explicitly in the game to be modeled. Certainly New England models Nieuw Amsterdam while Brazil models Suriname.

Is there currently a Jakarta colony? I'm not sure myself but probably not.

No, but Malaya pretty much qualifies as a model for it, I think. And it was controlled successively by the Portuguese, Dutch and British, like a lot of places in Asia. (There's one of the problems; there's no way to simulate conquest of colonies right now.)

Australia is just Gold Coast right now, firmly British in history, no?

The Gold Coast is in Africa (Ghana), not sure what you're talking about. The Dutch discovered Australia and so should at least have access to the possibility of colonizing it if added even if no one else but they and the British do (although the French also had never-realized designs on parts of the continent).

 

[jessiecat]

It doesn't have to be explicitly in the game to be modeled. Certainly New England models Nieuw Amsterdam while Brazil models Suriname.



No, but Malaya pretty much qualifies as a model for it, I think. And it was controlled successively by the Portuguese, Dutch and British, like a lot of places in Asia. (There's one of the problems; there's no way to simulate conquest of colonies right now.)



The Gold Coast is in Africa (Ghana), not sure what you're talking about. The Dutch discovered Australia and so should at least have access to the possibility of colonizing it if added even if no one else but they and the British do (although the French also had never-realized designs on parts of the continent).

Whats been proposed is adding Quebec, New England, Louisiana and Jamaica as well as the Aztec Conquests and Inca Conquests. An extra 6 is quite a lot but covers most areas in the Americas.
Malaya is already included as is the East Indies, Indian Trading Posts and Far Eastern Treaty Ports. Do we really need more in that area? Maybe 2 more, possibly the Phillipines and Ceylon. Surely no more.
Australia isn't included because, although the Dutch discovered most of it, nobody actually settled there until after Cook explored the East coast in the 1780s. much too late for our game.

 

[merijn_v1]

We might not end up with enough places for those colonies. Currently there's Virginia, and I've already proposed New England, where would Nieuw Amsterdam fit in?
Right now there's no colony for Suriname, I might propose Guyana.
Is there currently a Jakarta colony? I'm not sure myself but probably not.
Australia is just Gold Coast right now, firmly British in history, no?

Anyway, I think you're confused as to what 3Miro is saying. There won't be three different kinds of access on the map, other additional access resources which will only speed up production are going to be provided by nearby colonies, off the map. That's what I understood.

I didn't say this colonies should be implanted, but that the Dutch (for example) should get all 3 types of access because they had colonies their. These are just example of theat.

I know, but because the Dutch had all directions, so IMO they should get all types.

 

[BurnEmDown]

I think taking over Colonies could be implemented in an espionage-kinda-way. If a civ accumulates enough EP they can initiate a "take over colony" mission which has a certain % of succeeding, related to the number of EPs the conquering civ has over the number of EPs the defending civ has. This mission should also be available only during war time, and shouldn't get discount from staying a few turns in a single tile (maybe there is some way to make it so that it doesn't require a spy?). Then if the civ successfully took over a colony the defending civ gets some EPs against the conquering civ, which would make it try and take over it's former colony. That'll make the colony UHVs hard since you don't only have to keep them, you have to hold on to them.
An action featuring increasing the defense (less % to take over by others) in a selected colony should be available.
hope this sounds good and not too hard to implement!.

 

[3Miro]

I think taking over Colonies could be implemented in an espionage-kinda-way. If a civ accumulates enough EP they can initiate a "take over colony" mission which has a certain % of succeeding, related to the number of EPs the conquering civ has over the number of EPs the defending civ has. This mission should also be available only during war time, and shouldn't get discount from staying a few turns in a single tile (maybe there is some way to make it so that it doesn't require a spy?). Then if the civ successfully took over a colony the defending civ gets some EPs against the conquering civ, which would make it try and take over it's former colony. That'll make the colony UHVs hard since you don't only have to keep them, you have to hold on to them.
An action featuring increasing the defense (less % to take over by others) in a selected colony should be available.
hope this sounds good and not too hard to implement!.

Pretty much impossible (well probably not, but way too much work).

1. Unlike wonders, projects are not meant to pass from one nation to another.
2. How do you propose the AI should handle such situations. Making a semi-sane AI is HARD.
3. Why would espionage points help to steal someone else's colony. Can you point at an (abstract) example from history.

 

[Michael Vick]

It doesn't have to be explicitly in the game to be ed. Certainly New England s Nieuw Amsterdam while Brazil s Suriname.



No, but Malaya pretty much qualifies as a for it, I think. And it was controlled successively by the Portuguese, Dutch and British, like a lot of places in Asia. (There's one of the problems; there's no way to simulate conquest of colonies right now.)



The Gold Coast is in Africa (Ghana), not sure what you're talking about. The Dutch discovered Australia and so should at least have access to the possibility of colonizing it if added even if no one else but they and the British do (although the French also had never-realized designs on parts of the continent).

1. New York is not in New England.
2. I'm pretty sure Suriname isn't even covered in the art for Brazil, it would be better modeled by Guyana.
3. If Malaysia is going to count for all of the archipelago, it should be called something different.
4. There are lots of Gold Coasts, I was talking about the place in Australia, with James Cook and all, my bad.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Yeah I thought it would be too hard to code, nvm
And from a Gameplay point of view I thought maybe the Espionage can "represent" colonial power and\or influence, and not actual Espionage.

 

[3Miro]

Yeah I thought it would be too hard to code, nvm
And from a Gameplay point of view I thought maybe the Espionage can "represent" colonial power and\or influence, and not actual Espionage.

Whata bout countries that never had colonies, should they not have espionage?

 

[jessiecat]

1. New York is not in New England.
2. I'm pretty sure Suriname isn't even covered in the art for Brazil, it would be better modeled by Guyana.
3. If Malaysia is going to count for all of the archipelago, it should be called something different.
4. There are lots of Gold Coasts, I was talking about the place in Australia, with James Cook and all, my bad.

1. Correct

2. Surinam is just another name for Dutch Guiana

3. Malaya doesn't count for all the archipelago, The East Indies colony does.

4. There is only one historic Gold Coast (Ghana). The beach in Australia is 20thC.

5. You score 25/100. I hope you never take up geography as a profession.

 

[jessiecat]

Pretty much impossible (well probably not, but way too much work).

1. Unlike wonders, projects are not meant to pass from one nation to another.
2. How do you propose the AI should handle such situations. Making a semi-sane AI is HARD.
3. Why would espionage points help to steal someone else's colony. Can you point at an (abstract) example from history.

Colonies could be assigned to another country as part of peace settlement. Same thing could happen with disputed cities. Examples include the Treaty of Utrecht, 1713 (Spain ceded Gibraltar to Britain) and the Treaty of Paris, 1763 which gave French Canada to Britain. Something I was thinking of as being part of the Papal diplomacy, like AP decisions in RFC. Catholic countries could vote on it, decision being binding or war declared by countries voting for it. Something like that.

 

[3Miro]

I implemented all the colonies from Michael's post and reduced the resources given by 2. However, I have some comments:

1. I need trading company associations for those. We should also rename the east and west India companies to something generic (East and West Trading Company?)

2. We have all the colonies concentrated in several techs. I wish we could spread them out. Right now Astronomy provides 6 colonies.

3. I need to know which of the new colonies could be cheaply build with slaves.

4. I have some comments on the resources. Did the Spanish got any gold from the Andes, I thought there is only copper and silver there.

5. Was fish actually transported from Quebec or whatever and brought back to Europe? How did they do that, salt?

6. I think we may have too many Caribbean colonies. How significant was Hispaniola (to be separate form Cuba and Jamaica). Should we split the Indies as well?

 

[jessiecat]

I implemented all the colonies from Michael's post and reduced the resources given by 2. However, I have some comments:

1. I need trading company associations for those. We should also rename the east and west India companies to something generic (East and West Trading Company?)

2. We have all the colonies concentrated in several techs. I wish we could spread them out. Right now Astronomy provides 6 colonies.

3. I need to know which of the new colonies could be cheaply build with slaves.

4. I have some comments on the resources. Did the Spanish got any gold from the Andes, I thought there is only copper and silver there.

5. Was fish actually transported from Quebec or whatever and brought back to Europe? How did they do that, salt?

6. I think we may have too many Caribbean colonies. How significant was Hispaniola (to be separate form Cuba and Jamaica). Should we split the Indies as well?

1. As I said before, at least 5 countries had a West India Company or a East India Company historically which managed different colonies in that area. It's the already most common generic name. Why change it? It depends what you've added but generally if its in the Western Hemisphere it should be the West India Company.
2. Astronomy should allow only the Gold Coast, East Africa, Aztec Conquests and Incan Conquests. These should not require trading companies. The others should be spread out in the later techs( 2 per tech) ideally 1 requiring the East India Company and 1 requiring the West India Company.
3. Only Virginia, Louisiana, Cuba, Jamaica and Brazil or any others in the West Indies should be cheaply built with slaves. There wasn't so much slavery in the East Indies though.
4. It should be mainly gold and silver from the Andes and mainly silver and spices (chocolate, vanilla, pepper etc.) from Mexico.
5. New England and Quebec exported a lot of salted dried cod though the main area was from the Grand Banks off Newfoundland. A very important trade resource in Europe. The Basques were the first to fish there in the 1400s. Quebec should be mainly furs though.
6. I think the main colonies in the Caribbean should be Cuba and Jamaica and maybe Louisiana. Less important were Hispaniola, Florida and Panama. How do mean split the Indies?

 

[3Miro]

Thanks for shedding light on the matter.

1. How much influence did the West India company had over the Americas? We basically have WIC as prerequisite for Virginia.

2. Can you think of a way to distribute the colonies among the techs, I am counting on you guys for knowledge on the history of colonialism.

3. OK
4. OK

5. We should make a new fish resource, i.e. New World Fish or something. Otherwise we already have plenty of fish on the map, the extra from the colony will be useless.

6. By splitting the Indies I mean make several colonies out of them. Since individual islands in the Caribbean are colonies, we should have more Indies Islands/Areas.