RFC Europe Wonders

[jessiecat]

Then I approach you with another suggestion: temporary +1 or stability point for each used population? Prisoners were sent to distant colonies, after all. Maybe we should ponder that possibility? The button could be renamed "Relocate population" button.

Are you saying that when you build a colony you lose 1 pop from one of your cities but but gain 1 or 1 stability in that city? That's OK but you wouldn't need the button for that. I'm sure it could be coded so that building a colony has that effect anyway. If it is codable then that'd be a good idea.

 

[Cethegus]

Are you saying that when you build a colony you lose 1 pop from one of your cities but but gain 1 or 1 stability in that city? That's OK but you wouldn't need the button for that. I'm sure it could be coded so that building a colony has that effect anyway. If it is codable then that'd be a good idea.

No, I meant the button that lets you use Slavery (right beside Drafting and Buy Production). Currently it's obsolete, thought that would give it some purpose. Tying that effect on colonies would be fine too.

 

[JediClemente]

No one has expressed interest in more wonders, so I'll keep on.

After some research, I've discarded a "Mozart's Opera". There seems to be no important enough Opera House built in RFCE's timeframe (the one usually linked to Mozart's operas was built precisely in 1800). I suppose most of them were destroyed years ago.

Someone suggested the Stephansdom for Austria (sorry, I forgot who). It's St. Stephen's Cathedral in Wien, one of the oldest in the world. I'm working on it, but it means no graphics for Amsterdam Bourse again.

I was thinking of something like +2 stability points (or more if that's too small) for running a monarchy (Divine or Constitutional), to reflect the importance of the Habsburg dynasty (the crypt holds the remains of 72 of them). (of course, 3Miro would code it, if he likes the idea)

I also want to put Bibliotheca Corviniana as Hungary's wonder (though they already have Golden Bull).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliotheca_Corviniana

It would give 1 free tech. And old aspiration of mine is to take that away from Round Church (which makes no sense as it is now, and I think it was never intended but left there as the code was the one from Oracle).

Again, new summer palace, Fontainebleau (artists provide +1 gold) and Palatine Chapel (enables all expansion civics) should be the next two.

 

[3Miro]

\
It would give 1 free tech. And old aspiration of mine is to take that away from Round Church (which makes no sense as it is now, and I think it was never intended but left there as the code was the one from Oracle).

+1 free tech for the RC was initially not intended, however, it is not inaccurate. The RC is meant to be in as a symbol of Simeon's Golden Age. The big achievements of the age were:
1. Separation of the Bulgarian church from the influence of both the Byzantine Patriarch and the Pope.
2. Enormous effort to translate (into Bulgarian) as many ancient Greek texts as possible (including the works of Plato, Socrates, Aristotle....)
3. Several great people were "born" in Bulgaria during that age, artists, architects and phylosophers that contributed new interpretations to the scriptures.

Translation of ancient Greek, Latin or Arabic texts was the definition of science until Galileo.

+1 Free Tech is absolutely accurate for the Hungarian Library as well. I have no problem with giving the FT to the Hungarian Library, however, the Round Church would require another power (other than the somewhat weak - no penalty for war with brothers in faith).

 

[jessiecat]

Of the proposed wonders sugested so far I'd be very much in favour of the following;

Netherlands-1. The Stock Exchange (replaces Wall Street)

..................- 2. Rembrandt's Masterpieces

Poland ..........- Copernicus Revolution

Austria...........- Mozart's Concertos

Hungary..........- Buda Castle

England..........- The Tower of London (replaces Scotland Yard) - National Wonder

I think everybody should bear in mind that while we can always get suitable screen art for new wonders it's a lot harder to find suitable buildings to represent them. There isn't really much left in the downloads database.

Some of us have expressed a lot of interest in adding new wonders, Jedi. Maybe you missed my suggestions I posted a while ago. At least the Amsterdam Stock Exchange and the Tower of London are important, don't you think?

 

[JediClemente]

Some of us have expressed a lot of interest in adding new wonders, Jedi. Maybe you missed my suggestions I posted a while ago. At least the Amsterdam Stock Exchange and the Tower of London are important, don't you think?

Of course! I was refering to my suggestions yesterday, the ones for which I have adequate graphics now. That's the main problem in the end.

 

[jessiecat]

Of course! I was refering to my suggestions yesterday, the ones for which I have adequate graphics now. That's the main problem in the end.

OK. Then we agree on the Amsterdam Exchange and Fountainbleu as you've found some graphics. I'm still looking for a castle graphic that looks something like the Tower of London. The Dungeon looks the closest though we'd need a new graphic for that. Maybe not too hard to do that. Not sure about the Palantine Chapel though.
It seems a bit early.

 

[Michael Vick]

What about this Casa de Contratacion idea? I like it, this is precisely the reason why I was pushing against having colonies require a trading company, because of Spain's case. What if we made this a World Wonder that forgoes the need for a trading company in order to build colonies? Then an added benefit, something that would keep it from being just another trading company, maybe added stability from colonies, added production towards them, or extra wealth from them, maybe even extra trade routes in the city closest to the AA. Then we could go back to making all colonies require a trading company, except for the early African and Caribbean ones.
And how about just Guyana, the Carolinas, and Florida for next version? Guyana is so that the Dutch can have another colony to build while being historic, I'm sure the Dutch players (Wessel, merijn) would be in support of this. The other two I propose because there are 0 colonies in the SE United States, we'd be leaving out Georgia here, but I guess it would count as part of the Carolinas.

 

[jessiecat]

I don't really think we need more colonies as we have plenty now, as I said before. 22 or 26 if you count India and the Far East as 3 each. Nor do we really need so many more in the Americas. We have 12 already. But I'd consider 2 more at most.
Not Florida which was mostly abandoned from the 1560s and 1700 and never was economically important until the 19thC. Not the Carolinas which is too close to Virginia and produced nothing much other than tobacco until the late 18thC. anyway.

1. I would agree to Guyana but call it Surinam as it was Dutch for most the period. Large plantation economy growing sugar, coffee and cocoa and employing up to 8,000 slaves at one stage. (2 coffee, 1 sugar?).
2. I would also agree to New Amsterdam (or New Netherlands) as it was a major port and an even more important center for the early fur trade than Quebec or Hudson Bay. (2 fur, 1 fish?)
Both should require the West India Company to build. (The Dutch West India Company played a key role in establishing both colonies).
Here's some possible screen art for them.

Apart from these 2, no more or we'll have too many in the Western Hemisphere and not enough in the East.
OK Michael?

 

[JediClemente]

I suppose now a Casa de Contratacion is a bad idea, difficult to code. There's not a way in standard BtS to restrict a building to a running civic.

Good news! Only the buttons and movies rest from what I have finally worked on:

Amsterdam Beurs (halves corporation costs in your cities, as suggested by merijn, and some small bonuses to colonial products)
Palazzo San Giorgio (as Statue of Liberty)
Copernicus' Observatory (we have too many pure scientific wonders, so +1 free specialist for each town in the city)
Château de Fontainebleau (+50% culture, +1 gold +1 science for each specialist)
Imperial Diet (Reichstag, the Parliament of the HRE), instead of Palatine Chapel, enables all expansion civics, requires 12 cities (!)
Stephansdom (+2 stability points for monarchy, -25% war weariness in every city)

Plus changed noria as suggested in the spanish thread. +3 hammers now.

First and last wonder need python.

Now every civ has a wonder, it'd be neat to have Tower of London, and also something to enable all labor civics. Possibly Whitehall or Westminster Palaces (I know the latter was highly changed in the 1800s, but it was still the royal residence until 1530).

 

[3Miro]

Amsterdam Beurs (halves corporation costs in your cities, as suggested by merijn, and some small bonuses to colonial products)

No, this will destroy the entire concept of balance. No way we have a wonder that translates into 10 - 15 gold per city, it is way overpowered. Corporations are overpowered as is. Amsterdam Beurs takes the function of the Wall Street, i.e. + 100% gold.

 

[Myri]

Corporations are overpowered as is.

Ack. Can you halve all gold (the +4 and the + depending on ressources) and food income? Production from corps seems ok to me.

bye Myri

 

[jessiecat]

No, this will destroy the entire concept of balance. No way we have a wonder that translates into 10 - 15 gold per city, it is way overpowered. Corporations are overpowered as is. Amsterdam Beurs takes the function of the Wall Street, i.e. + 100% gold.

I think that wonder is a must. Maybe you can just minimize its effect somewhat. A couple of other points.

1. Could we use the dungeon building for the Tower of London? It wouldn't be hard to find another for that.

2. Are you OK with Guyana and New Amsterdam as 2 more colonies? That'll make 14 in the Americas and 14 elsewhere. A total of 28 should be the limit, right?

EDIT Here's art you could use for the Tower of London or for the Dungeon if you swap them. It's the 2nd. from the left. What do you think?

 

[Michael Vick]

Ok, I'll support as many colonies as we can put in. Why 2 coffee 1 sugar for Guyana? Wait, do colonies only give 3 resources now? Anyway, I wouldn't push coffee, if we can only do 3 I suggest 1 sugar, 1 spices, 1 gold. Remember, this isn't just the Paramaribo-Fort Orange Dutch Guyana, it's French Guyana too, as in Cayenne. So spices are the #1 priority, then sugar, and either gold or gems IMO.
And if we make a New York colony I don't want to call it New Amsterdam, that makes it sound strictly Dutch, if we make a mid-Atlantic Seaboard colony it should represent all of New York State, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, just the whole middle area, not one city.

 

[JediClemente]

No, this will destroy the entire concept of balance. No way we have a wonder that translates into 10 - 15 gold per city, it is way overpowered. Corporations are overpowered as is. Amsterdam Beurs takes the function of the Wall Street, i.e. + 100% gold.

That is it, then. ¿The rest are okay?

 

[JediClemente]

EDIT Here's art you could use for the Tower of London or for the Dungeon if you swap them. It's the 2nd. from the left. What do you think?

We're already using the 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

And for the record, I don't like New Amsterdam/York. Virginia and New England are enough for the East Coast. It isn't that big!

 

[jessiecat]

Ok, I'll support as many colonies as we can put in. Why 2 coffee 1 sugar for Guyana? Wait, do colonies only give 3 resources now? Anyway, I wouldn't push coffee, if we can only do 3 I suggest 1 sugar, 1 spices, 1 gold. Remember, this isn't just the Paramaribo-Fort Orange Dutch Guyana, it's French Guyana too, as in Cayenne. So spices are the #1 priority, then sugar, and either gold or gems IMO.
And if we make a New York colony I don't want to call it New Amsterdam, that makes it sound strictly Dutch, if we make a mid-Atlantic Seaboard colony it should represent all of New York State, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, just the whole middle area, not one city.

Because coffee was the No. 1 plantation crop for Dutch Guiana or Surinam. The whole area was Dutch almost continually up to the mid 1700s except for a period of British occupation. The French portion only existed after 1814. So spices are not the no.1 priority, are they? I wish you'd do some research before making such claims.

You want to add more colonies for the Dutch but you reject both Surinam and New Amsterdam. I've tried to help but what's the point? You don't seem to want to compromise. Anyway I agree with JediClemente on this. And I'd just as soon have no more colonies. We've probably got too many now as the AI doesn't really like to build them. That's also why we have only 3 resources per colony. Forget my suggestions altogether. I vote for the status quo and no more colonies. That's it, OK?

 

[jessiecat]

We're already using the 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

And for the record, I don't like New Amsterdam/York. Virginia and New England are enough for the East Coast. It isn't that big!

I agree with you about the colonies. I was just trying to compromise with Michael. We don't need any more IMO. And I think we're agreed on wonders too.

For the Tower of London, here's the only other one I've found. It's for Bratislava Castle from the wonders downloads. Right shape but the wrong colour. Still it might be OK for a National Wonder.

 

[Michael Vick]

Agreed then. But if you do make the New York Colony, I would like to request that it be called New York or Hudson River/Hudson Valley and not New Amsterdam or New Nederland.

 

[JediClemente]

For the Tower of London, here's the only other one I've found. It's for Bratislava Castle from the wonders downloads. Right shape but the wrong colour. Still it might be OK for a National Wonder.

We're already using that for Escorial.

Maybe one of the city centres from here?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=315821

Don't look like it, but there's nothing else!

Edit: so what you think about Whitehall or Westminter? I have Hungarian Parliament graphics for that.