Rhye's Catapult

[cece84]

rhye i want to say that AI can't simply ignore your requests! they are often forced to give you what you requested... (maybe it would be better that ai can't refuse your request if you have the points to do the request)

(edited text of the post)

i hate civ4 system, they never want to give you cities or tech (the only way is to wreck them completely...) i would like a more flexible system. it would be cool if the only way to let them refuse your requests is thanks to a third civ that fear your expansion or something similar

 

[Red Threat]

RedThreat -> might be a good idea. The concept of government centres is very realistic. But there are 2 problems: 1. the whole current collapse system should be rewritten; 2. AI should be rewritten so that understands that conquering a centre of government is more important.
(Le mappe rimanenti, hai qualche novità?)

1. The collapse condition could be different if a civ is attacked by barbarians or by other civs; with barbarians the normal condition would work well and with other civs we'd have the capital city one. You gotta judge if feasible and not too much complicated.

2. I really have no idea how to solve this, maybe we could create maps for war units similar to those of settlers that express preferences of the areas where to search a city to attack. So, Rome would prefer the areas where Carthage, Lutetia and Athens lie. Obviously, it would mean that capitals are unmoveable both for AI and human player.

Mappe: io ora sto a casa e anche se come ti ho detto ho del materiale di supporto purtroppo sto cercando disperatamente di preparare per martedì 11 l'ultimo esame che ho scazzato a giugno. Al limite ti mando entro questa domenica la lista del Mali; cmq dopo martedì a pisa finisco tutto (mi sarò portato le cose da casa) e mi pongo come limite massimo la domenica della prossima settimana. Spiace se è troppo tardi... cmq pensavo che fosse inutile mappare la Siberia per i russi (andare piuttosto a botte di lista casuale) con l'eccezione naturalmente della fascia meridionale più abitata. Che ne pensi?

 

[Red Threat]

i think this is too easy (think US that fall only for washington)
maybe capital + 25% of territory OR 60% territory (without capital) and you got that civ ( i want vassal stateee...!! )

But Washington is too hard to take for euro powers: they should cross the Atlantic!

In my opinion it's very realistic (there could be riots and trials of revolution in the cities not conquered but flipped because of the capital fallen, moreover the conqueror would have problems of manteinance after the conquest of the enemy's trasure), but I have said it has not to be applied universally. It's just an idea.

 

[Surtur]

Ok I tried Rome now and this is my first attempt. Well I failed... but I did some mistakes. It should at least be possible to gain the territory but this

(1) Roma and four other cities must be size 5 or more with Barracks and 100 or more culture.
(2) All cities above size 5 must have Aqueduct.
(3) Roma and at least two other cities must have Collosseum.

is clearly impossible at least on Monarch difficulty.

In my game I realized that Egypt and Greece were at war and as fast as possible I declared war on Greece and took their cities. I used galleys very much in this game because they are really fast and I had not enough workers to build roads everywhere. Barbarian galleys were a bit annoying... I didn't manage to declare war on Egypt in time. And my settler will reach England around ~300 AD not earlier. But it was fun. I should have researched Drame earlier to get some culture.

 

[Blasphemous]

Blasph -> barbarian what? workers?

One Barb city in England (London?) and one in Scotland, maybe one in Ireland as well, along with a good few warriors (5 to 10) and maybe a few swordsmen but nothing more advanced. Just enough to give England something solid to start with when the Barbs there flip to them.

 

[Rhye]

Mappe: io ora sto a casa e anche se come ti ho detto ho del materiale di supporto purtroppo sto cercando disperatamente di preparare per martedì 11 l'ultimo esame che ho scazzato a giugno. Al limite ti mando entro questa domenica la lista del Mali; cmq dopo martedì a pisa finisco tutto (mi sarò portato le cose da casa) e mi pongo come limite massimo la domenica della prossima settimana. Spiace se è troppo tardi... cmq pensavo che fosse inutile mappare la Siberia per i russi (andare piuttosto a botte di lista casuale) con l'eccezione naturalmente della fascia meridionale più abitata. Che ne pensi?

Guarda penso che soma abbia fatto un buon lavoro per la Russia, essendo ungherese. Hai solo da fare correzioni qua e là

 

[Eddiit]

Blasph -> barbarian what? workers?

cece -> I don't get your point. You're just reporting what civ already is (including vassalage, with Warlords)

RedThread -> might be a good idea. The concept of government centres is very realistic. But there are 2 problems: 1. the whole current collapse system should be rewritten; 2. AI should be rewritten so that understands that conquering a centre of government is more important.
(Le mappe rimanenti, hai qualche novità?)

Rhye I dont like the idea of taking the capital being the end. It would make wars way to one dimensional.

 

[Rhye]

I wan't thinking the good idea as Capital => all, but Capital => a part of smaller cities around

 

[Barak]

Playing a game as England.

I have 4 cities in Great Britain and one in Ireland. I also put a city in Scandinavia (oslo area). By 1500, I was the tech leader putting Great Engeneers and Scientists to good use. I was NOT the first civ to Astronomy, Spain and Frnace got it slightly before me.

To that end, while I was able to settle Halifax, Canada I was unable to get all of Brazil as I had intended. Spain put a city on Cuba and two in northern S. America. France put a city near the 2 spices in Brazil.

It is very possible to do well playing as England. I feel their UP is almost worthless, considering that you start with 2 workboats and 3 galleys I only built 2 additional galleons when i reached astronomy. Perhaps giving English naval units some bonus XP or promotions?

 

[Vishaing]

Rhye, I'm sorry to say this but it doesn't seem the flip system works entirely if the cities are flipping 'away' from the human player. I noticed this when playing as Rome (trying to do the challenge, didn't make it, came close..



but no cigar.)

However, when the civs started spawning and the proverbial crud hit the proverbial fan the flips didn't work entirely. take France, I have three saves I hope could help, 1 before they spawn, 1 the turn they spawn, and 1 after;
View attachment 131849
View attachment 131850
View attachment 131851

What happened was; when they spawned, I got a ton of popups about cities wanting to flip, and ,with a tear in my eye, prepared to kiss Lutetia Parisorum goodbye. I let all of the cities go, and then... only one of them flipped, but it asked me about 4 cities.

Also, Lutetia Parisorum was NOT the first city to try and flip, so it did NOT become France's capitol, it didn't even succesfully flip, the city that flipped was on the Mediterranean.

Oh and about the contest, another success condition should be to make Roma the #1 city in the world, as in #1 under the "Top 5 cities / Wonders" panel.

 

[Surtur]

I had the same problem. Only 1 city flipped to Spain.

 

[Elhoim]

NOW it is imposible

 

[Blasphemous]

about the contest, another success condition should be to make Roma the #1 city in the world, as in #1 under the "Top 5 cities / Wonders" panel.

I'm not sure I agree. Initially, I did, but I'm not sure Roma really was the top city in the world by the game's standards at that point in time. Sure, it was the biggest center of power, but that doesn't mean it had the most culture, production, income, or whatever the game uses to measure for that list.

I've been thinking about Rome's UP and I think it may not be the most conductive to historical realism. I propose instead, that all Roman non-military units and all Roman Praetorians travel at 4x on roads (in or out of roman territory), and Praetorians can construct roads (but nothing else). This will be about as strong (it gives the ability out of territory and gives Rome more roadbuilders, but limits what units get the bonus) and at the sime time better reflect history and better allow Rome to create a huge infrastructure of roads and use it to expand.

On a completely unrelated note, I think Universities should be changed a bit. They should give +10% and +1, and another +10% and +1 for every 10% . By this I mean to reflect that Universities would normally be among the institutions that benefit when a government invests in culture and that the more budget a University has, the more ingenuity and production can come out of it with time. It also gives another reason to invest in your slider, even if you aren't trying to make people happy or expand borders.

 

[OzzyKP]

Very impressive! You didn't get all of the Mauritania territory (the western bit of the North African coastline) so that's another area you didn't get to. But this does demonstrate the challenge isn't completely impossible. (By the way, I set that pretty b&w map of Trajan's territory as my desktop wallpaper. )
I would propose that we add another facet to our challenge:
The Roman Empire was very well-developed as far as infrastructure. Simply conquering all that territory is not such an enormous big deal, but developing it a little while you do it may well be. I propose the following:
(1) Roma and four other cities must be size 5 or more with Barracks and 100 or more culture.
(2) All cities above size 5 must have Aqueduct.
(3) Roma and at least two other cities must have Collosseum.
Is this agreeable? I don't think it's realistic to have a roman empire comprised of a string of undeveloped little cities.
So the requirements for completion can be as follows:

1:  Territory - borders must believably encompass at least 90% of the Roman Empire as of Trajan's rule ([URL="http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/graphics/romanempiremaplarge.jpg"]map[/URL]), not entirely excluding any province or area (noteworthy extremities: England, Iberia, Dacia, Armenia, Mesopotamia, Mauritania)
2a: Infrastructure I - All cities under Roman control must be connected to the Roman trade network
2b: Infrastructure II - All cities above size 5 must have Aqueduct
3a: Culture and Establishment I - Roma and at least four other cities must be above size 4, have Barracks, and have 100 culture or more
3b: Culture and Establishment II - Roma and at least two other cities must have Collosseum
4:  TIMING - At a chosen point between AD 50 and AD 200, all above requirements must have already been accomplished

That truly is impossible. No way. I went at a near breakneck speed just doing what I did making much use of chopping and slavery and only keeping my economy together by continually conquering more territory. No time to build culture or... anything besides units really. Even then I didn't get 90% of the map you posted, but I've come the closest so far.

There is absolutely no way your conditions can be met, sorry.

 

[jbfballrb]

I decided to try the Americans, see what I could do there. I opted to wait the whole thing out rather than play til 1605, so everything that happened the AI did. After founding Washington and sending some units out, I checked the World Builder to see how the world had developed. England had one city plus a settler in North America and a city in Australia, Spain has Havana and Argentina, and France has a city on the Guinea coast in South America. However, when I checked the old world, I discovered that not one civ had fallen. Rome has Roma, Panormus and three cities in North Africa, with no sign of Mediolanum (no ruins, nothing), and two cities near Finland. Germany controls itself and Austria, plus Sweden (the geographic areas, not actual civs) plus the Baltic civ area. Egypt has expanded into Kenya, while the Malinese control west Africa. The Greeks have Asia Minor and the Ukraine, the Persian Empire reaches halfway up the Urals. The Arabs are still there, but small, holding Jerusalem and the peninsula. The Indians have one city outside the subcontinent. China is enormous, stretching from Ningbo in Siberia to Phnom Penh. The Japanese have an outpost on the mainland and a colony in Indonesia. Mongolia is squished between Persia, China, the Himalayas and Siberia. Except for Tiwanaku in the southern Amazon, the Incas and Aztecs are where they should be. Thought it was interesting, and probably unintended, that no one has fallen.

 

[Blasphemous]

There is absolutely no way your conditions can be met, sorry.

Let's keep in mind what the Historical Challenge is about: testing the mod for historical feasability. If we conclude it is truly impossible to meet the requirements of the challenge, the mod should probably be changed, as the requirements are a very lenient sketch of real historical achievement. I propose that in the next version of the mod Rome receive two Praetorians more at start and Aqueducts in all of the Italian cities. That might just be enough to make the challenge possible.

I have an error to report: in my England game, starting at some point in the 1700's, practically every turn when I get the little "creating autosave..." message (whatever it says) I get right under it the following line:

TXT_KEY_EMIGRATION

Now for a little progress report: the world powers (Rome and Persia) ganged up on Greece (and pulled me in as a reluctant ally) and quickly destroyed them. Meanwhile I am nearing the end of the military buildup I have been working on for ages (ever since I got Rifling, and I'm not just after Railroad [I am tech leader]) and preparing for war with France. I'm trying to piss them off so they attack me. I demanded 50 gold in tribute (even though they are a bit stronger than me) and I demanded this ten times, getting -20 in diplomacy with them and some small minuses with others. America and Russia with whom I had defensive pacts broke the pacts off because of this. I've left myself a save from before I started getting on Louis's nerves, and I may revert to it if the world turns against me because of this. Anyhow, I have South Africa (and a bit north of that) and my border is right near the French Fort Dauphin in southern Madagascar. I'm posed to conquer that city the second war breaks out. France itself should be a bit more of a challenge as I don't have enough forces back home to match what they've got. I do have naval superiority in the Channel so I can at least feel safe they won't successfully invade to counterattack. I'll go play now and see how it all goes.

 

[OzzyKP]

Let's keep in mind what the Historical Challenge is about: testing the mod for historical feasability. If we conclude it is truly impossible to meet the requirements of the challenge, the mod should probably be changed, as the requirements are a very lenient sketch of real historical achievement. I propose that in the next version of the mod Rome receive two Praetorians more at start and Aqueducts in all of the Italian cities. That might just be enough to make the challenge possible.

Yea but there is a limit to that. Making impossible demands to try and break the game doesn't fix it.

Should we try to make this a reality?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Mongol_Empire_map.gif

Mongols conquering all of Asia in less than a hundred years? What is that, like 10 turns or less? No way.

 

[cece84]

maybe slowing the game can be enough... also if it need testing..

 

[Elhoim]

maybe slowing the game can be enough... also if it need testing...

Yeah, but for now it seems out of the cuestion...

I've been thinking about Rome's UP and I think it may not be the most conductive to historical realism. I propose instead, that all Roman non-military units and all Roman Praetorians travel at 4x on roads (in or out of roman territory), and Praetorians can construct roads (but nothing else). This will be about as strong (it gives the ability out of territory and gives Rome more roadbuilders, but limits what units get the bonus) and at the sime time better reflect history and better allow Rome to create a huge infrastructure of roads and use it to expand.

That is quite nice, as it focuses it Rome´s stronger period, and doesn´t expand to other eras...

 

[Lachlan]

I want simultaneous turns !