Rhye's Catapult

[Barak]

Just noticed that when I start a new game, the techs I already know do not show up when I hit F6. It did in previous versions.

In other words, when I hit F6, i can research Compass, but it does not show that I know sailing (a prerequisite).

I ALSO noticed in in this game as England (most recent version) that France has Praetorians running around!!!!!!

 

[Barak]

At one point as England I noticed that my galley moved 4 turns. Is this a feature?

edit: Disregard, I forgot about the ocean 1/2 movement cost.

 

[Arkaeyn]

It's a genius-level deviltry because it doesn't flip, being the capital, but other cities in that row do.

Actually, it does flip, or at least, when I was playing China I had the option to let it flip or declare war on the Mongols.

Possibly this is because I moved it a square to the right, next to the ocean?

 

[Arkaeyn]

I have noticed that one of the big problems with this mod, both in playing and reading what other people have to say, is the idea of intentionality. That is, because we know certain things are going to happen, our intent is different. A simple example, when I play as China, I try to found a city at Macau, because I know that bronze will appear there. I know where to explore as well, so building scouts is pretty much pointless. I know where to put which defenders to stop the barbarians.

For those who want to play as Rome, they don't build as much in Spain, France, and Germany, because they know it'll just flip. So it makes more sense to focus on the Balkans and Northern Africa.

So some mechanism of randomness should be introduced in order to have players reacting instead of merely following a script.

 

[FooFight2000]

Well, maybe i'd say its damn hard to recreate A historical Rome.

I tried tonight and an 600AD I had cities in France & Spain (No England or northern Africa). I had conqured all of Greece, and a city in Asia Minor and one at Tyrus north of Jersulem. One of the most difficult things is rapidly expanding, the economy cannot keep up with it, you have to turn science way down to maintain the empire, but its maybe not that bad I had the medieval ages in 270 AD. One thing is you need to be a military machine, leaving no time for wonders or improvements.

Ill attach my save


I like this idea of competitions, I took some notes as i played for a guide. we can probably put everything we have together and have a good strategy

 

[FooFight2000]

I have noticed that one of the big problems with this mod, both in playing and reading what other people have to say, is the idea of intentionality. That is, because we know certain things are going to happen, our intent is different. A simple example, when I play as China, I try to found a city at Macau, because I know that bronze will appear there. I know where to explore as well, so building scouts is pretty much pointless. I know where to put which defenders to stop the barbarians.

For those who want to play as Rome, they don't build as much in Spain, France, and Germany, because they know it'll just flip. So it makes more sense to focus on the Balkans and Northern Africa.

So some mechanism of randomness should be introduced in order to have players reacting instead of merely following a script.

I think your perceived problems are not really problems at all but design choices. Try a game like Europa Universalis or Victoria and you will realise just how much this mod is still wide open and NOT scripted. I beleive Rhye has took as many oppurtunities to make the mod organic rather than scripted but still historically plausable. (ala how Religions are implemented and how cities flip.)

 

[Elhoim]

Just noticed that when I start a new game, the techs I already know do not show up when I hit F6. It did in previous versions.

In other words, when I hit F6, i can research Compass, but it does not show that I know sailing (a prerequisite).

I ALSO noticed in in this game as England (most recent version) that France has Praetorians running around!!!!!!

Yeah, the tech thing happened to me too. And about the french praetorians, I think they must have got them by flipping.

 

[Methos]

I also think it would be fair to not start with a neighbour of Rome, as you could do all the work pre-apparition of the civ.

This crossed my mind as well. IMO it would be more fun to start as Rome rather than pre-Rome prep the area.

BTW, great idea and I'm in.

Question: Does it matter what version we are playing? Current one is 0.84, but more than likely Rhye will have a newer version prior to us finishing this.

 

[Arkaeyn]

I think your perceived problems are not really problems at all but design choices. Try a game like Europa Universalis or Victoria and you will realise just how much this mod is still wide open and NOT scripted. I beleive Rhye has took as many oppurtunities to make the mod organic rather than scripted but still historically plausable. (ala how Religions are implemented and how cities flip.)

But it's not organic right now, and because we know it's not organic, we can adjust our gameplay accordingly. If it were organic, as Rome, we would build cities in France and Spain, and then fight off those who would capture them. As is, we know we're going to lose all our cities, or all our units and probably our cities too in those regions.

What I'm proposing is some level of unsureness. Like if you don't build cities in France, then you're crippling yourself because the French MIGHT not appear in the same way, every time.

How this can be done is tricky, but it is I think possible. I'll try to come up with some ideas.

 

[Eddiit]

But it's not organic right now, and because we know it's not organic, we can adjust our gameplay accordingly. If it were organic, as Rome, we would build cities in France and Spain, and then fight off those who would capture them. As is, we know we're going to lose all our cities, or all our units and probably our cities too in those regions.

What I'm proposing is some level of unsureness. Like if you don't build cities in France, then you're crippling yourself because the French MIGHT not appear in the same way, every time.

How this can be done is tricky, but it is I think possible. I'll try to come up with some ideas.

I think you have a pint. When I play Rome I know I avoid Germnay,spain and france every time. I also avoid jerusalem because of the arabians.

 

[OzzyKP]

Well, maybe i'd say its damn hard to recreate A historical Rome.

I tried tonight and an 600AD I had cities in France & Spain (No England or northern Africa). I had conqured all of Greece, and a city in Asia Minor and one at Tyrus north of Jersulem. One of the most difficult things is rapidly expanding, the economy cannot keep up with it, you have to turn science way down to maintain the empire, but its maybe not that bad I had the medieval ages in 270 AD. One thing is you need to be a military machine, leaving no time for wonders or improvements.

Ill attach my save


I like this idea of competitions, I took some notes as i played for a guide. we can probably put everything we have together and have a good strategy

I went for pure rush. I didn't make it to England, and I don't have much culture, but I've got cities most everywhere in historic Rome.

There are a few corners I could cut in the future. Not bother building barracks or forges, just build nothing but units. Maybe go for Stonehenge if its available so my borders can pop and the map will look nicer. But it's mostly there.

 

[UofMBob]

Well, if you are not a fan of the mod you can always choose not to play it. I think this mod is amazing and there are so many different civ choices that you get a great deal of randomness. One time greece thrives and then china you must then play accordingly. That is the randomness which I seek.

 

[SilverKnight]

Couldn't get my mind off my failure with China, so I decided to try to take advantage of it as the Mongols, and test out their UP as well.

I started 3 times, waited straight for Mongolia. Each time I declared war on China right away, before they got their hands on Feudalism, and each time I was beat back to a bloody pulp by their MASSIVE crappy army! Their swords and spears were no match for my Keshiks individually, yet they overran me with sheer numbers! How could the AI afford such a large army (over a dozen each of catapults, axes, swords, spears, and horsearchers) while I was bankrupt on such a small one? And EACH TIME! Maybe I'll give Japan a shot later, but not for a while. I need time to heal.

The barbarian option sounds best to me. There were Celts there long before everybody starting invading Britain, right? Then have some Barbarians represent them.

Another good idea. Hadrian's Wall was built for a reason! Still haven't gotten to England; I'll wait till this is implemented.

I will make my first attempt the moment I finish the England game (tomorrow or the next day, I hope). Is anyone else with me?

Hell yes! Sounds like a plan. Starting up a game right now. Pax Romana! (We Americans are experts, no? )

I went for pure rush. I didn't make it to England, and I don't have much culture, but I've got cities most everywhere in historic Rome.

...

There are a few corners I could cut in the future. Not bother building barracks or forges, just build nothing but units. Maybe go for Stonehenge if its available so my borders can pop and the map will look nicer. But it's mostly there.

But not only did the Romans do that and more, they ALSO had aqueducts, Colosseums, temples, etc. How?
(GIF map of Rome's expanding borders over time.)

SilverKnight

 

[Elhoim]

But not only did the Romans do that and more, they ALSO had aqueducts, Colosseums, temples, etc. How?
(GIF map of Rome's expanding borders over time.)

That map is fantastic!!! I love it!

 

[a1Basco]

That map is fantastic!!! I love it!

Heres another really cool one.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Ww2_allied_axis.gif

 

[cece84]

those maps are really cool!

1 ) BUILDING EMPIRES
Do you want know why rome built so fast an empire? (not possible in civ). i make an example (valid also with other empires like alexander)

example (valid with ancient empires)

the difference beetween civ and realilty is that in real the 2 contenders of a war will fight, first or before, their decisive battle (with most of their army). the winner of that battle is the winner of the war and often the loser simply surrender... (giving him people to the winner. the loser become a vassal state or became a part of the empire...)
(how will this can be in civ??? if rome invade greece or egypt, and for example alexander sees that his army is too little and rome has conquered 2-3 cities then can he surrender giving his empire to rome after a decisive battle (many units)???)

2) CONGRESS
(few ideas in my humbly opinion... please read if you have time )

i thought this... after a war the 2 contenders (simplified example with 2 contenders) will sits to a table to design new borders, politic, economy that the loser/partial loser must respect.
in civ this is partially implemented (but for example they prefer go to hell rather than give you a city or a tech... i don't think this was a real thing..)

my ideas:
a point system:
you make a war. you conquer some of their terriory (then your border expands. now you go to congress and the system see what tiles you have conquered and make this:

-conquered cities values from 5 to 50 points(capital) (size, culture)
-conquered resources values 1-2-3 points (this simulate wars for resources)

now we are at congress with the enemy. we put on the table our conquered points and they puts their points (if there are some...)

example 1: each has conquered 10 points->10-10=0 peace for free(if both agrees)
example 2: we conquered 30 points,they 5 then (total 30-5)-> we can do some requests for peace condition. (then we gain the conquered terrioty plus other things..)
-request a city: (we can earn an enemy city with some points(how many points? if a city of size 5 with 0 culture conquered give for example 4 points a city requested of the same size values the double).
if a city has a % of foreign population of our country then we gain a reduction in price)
-request resources: (difficult to implement in game...) same as city. we steal their resources (it will be beautiful if the tile with the resource become in our borders... or a civ3 like colony)an easier way to implement it is to keep the standard civ4 system (they "trade" for free thier resources for many many turns)
-request tech: we want a tech for some points..

they can't refuse your requests if you have the right points. (maybe the only way to let them refuse is with the help of a 3rd civ that judges... no idea for now )


example 3: many many points earned (for example 80 points(capital bonus!))
we conquered most of their territory. the system make this: it sums the points of all their alive cities and resources (for example 35, with the % of foreign people reduction). then if we conquered the DOUBLE of their remaining points they are obligated to surrender AT ANY COST! (we gain their civ! (cool for build a roman empire.. think WW2... hitler conquered paris and the north.. petain has surrended) and now? still to think: vassal state?with same form of government as our ecc...)

this is the simplified system i thought.. now talk about the hard one..

a multi-war many civs at congress.. difficult to think... i've only thought this: if 2 winners wants the same city then they make a "bet" of points...




i LOVE this system...it's only a stub and really buggy . i don't know if this can be implemented in CIV.
now i hope do you like it... i would mod this myself but i haven't any civmodding experience.... maybe i could try...

let me know what do you think plz (it takes 30 minutes to write )

 

[Red Threat]

I have an idea: what about a code "take the capital and take all" (it has not to be applied universally)? Maybe, with warlords, it would make it easier to build realistic empires. Examples:

1) Rome could easily expand towards its historical borders just taking only 4 cities: Carthago (the city), Athens (Greeks), Thebes (Egypt) and Lutetia (Gauls). However, the next rise of civs (Spain, France, England, Germany, Arabia and maybe Byzantium) would reduce Rome only to Italy and eventually North Africa.

2) To build its colonial empire, for Spain it would be enough to take Tenochtitlan and Cuzco, and for France Timbuktu;

3) Alexander would easily build its empire just getting Persepolis...

etc.

The biggest task (English colonization) is a problem it should be faced when the new colonial system will be implemented.

 

[Blasphemous]

I also think it would be fair to not start with a neighbour of Rome, as you could do all the work pre-apparition of the civ.

I'm pretty sure (and glad) Rhye has disallowed switching to a neighbor. Is that right Rhye?
It's not fair or realistic - in general or for this challenge - that one civ works to enable another future (enemy) civ to prosper.
Which reminds me of another important historical challenge to try for: Alexander's conquest.

Question: Does it matter what version we are playing? Current one is 0.84, but more than likely Rhye will have a newer version prior to us finishing this.

Like I said, all attempts should be on the latest version. But it doesn't really matter all that much if you started on a slightly older version. The idea here is concentrated testing, not real competition.

I went for pure rush. I didn't make it to England, and I don't have much culture, but I've got cities most everywhere in historic Rome.
...
There are a few corners I could cut in the future. Not bother building barracks or forges, just build nothing but units. Maybe go for Stonehenge if its available so my borders can pop and the map will look nicer. But it's mostly there.

Very impressive! You didn't get all of the Mauritania territory (the western bit of the North African coastline) so that's another area you didn't get to. But this does demonstrate the challenge isn't completely impossible. (By the way, I set that pretty b&w map of Trajan's territory as my desktop wallpaper. )
I would propose that we add another facet to our challenge:
The Roman Empire was very well-developed as far as infrastructure. Simply conquering all that territory is not such an enormous big deal, but developing it a little while you do it may well be. I propose the following:
(1) Roma and four other cities must be size 5 or more with Barracks and 100 or more culture.
(2) All cities above size 5 must have Aqueduct.
(3) Roma and at least two other cities must have Collosseum.
Is this agreeable? I don't think it's realistic to have a roman empire comprised of a string of undeveloped little cities.
So the requirements for completion can be as follows:

1:  Territory - borders must believably encompass at least 90% of the Roman Empire as of Trajan's rule ([URL="http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/graphics/romanempiremaplarge.jpg"]map[/URL]), not entirely excluding any province or area (noteworthy extremities: England, Iberia, Dacia, Armenia, Mesopotamia, Mauritania)
2a: Infrastructure I - All cities under Roman control must be connected to the Roman trade network
2b: Infrastructure II - All cities above size 5 must have Aqueduct
3a: Culture and Establishment I - Roma and at least four other cities must be above size 4, have Barracks, and have 100 culture or more
3b: Culture and Establishment II - Roma and at least two other cities must have Collosseum
4:  TIMING - At a chosen point between AD 50 and AD 200, all above requirements must have already been accomplished

Another good idea. Hadrian's Wall was built for a reason! Still haven't gotten to England; I'll wait till this is implemented.

So Rhye, what do you think of placing scripted "Celtic" Barbs in Britain to lay some groundwork for English development?

 

[cece84]

I have an idea: what about a code "take the capital and take all" (it has not to be applied universally)? Maybe, with warlords, it would make it easier to build realistic empires.

i think this is too easy (think US that fall only for washington)
maybe capital + 25% of territory OR 60% territory (without capital) and you got that civ ( i want vassal stateee...!! )

 

[Rhye]

Blasph -> barbarian what? workers?

cece -> I don't get your point. You're just reporting what civ already is (including vassalage, with Warlords)

RedThread -> might be a good idea. The concept of government centres is very realistic. But there are 2 problems: 1. the whole current collapse system should be rewritten; 2. AI should be rewritten so that understands that conquering a centre of government is more important.
(Le mappe rimanenti, hai qualche novità?)