Rhye's Catapult

In my roman game, which I will continue just cause its fun :), I was very pleased to see that i had settled Constantinopolis.

Has anyone else played as Japan? I feel that southern Japan is a tad sparse. Settling a city down there ends up leading to a big city with little to no production (even if you mine the incense square).

Also, have we considered allowing settlers to found cities in jungle when Biology is known by the civ? It would help colonization in SE asia.
 
Thank you, Rhye! I'm excited about going home and testing out the new version tonight. Maybe this time I won't get caught unprepared and swarmed by dozens of Roman calvalry in the 1400s! ;)

Also looking forward to checking out the city naming thing, that sounds like fun.
 
052

Barbs are uhh, strong...

Me again as France: I see no Rome, no Greece, No Persia
Usual stuff ;)

So I went and conquered Italy, got there before Izabella.
I have all France and all Italy, with 6 well placed cities.

1250, and I have Great Library and Sistine built.
I have Optics and now learn Philo...

I am not behind anybody in tech...
 
V. Soma said:
052

Barbs are uhh, strong...

Me again as France: I see no Rome, no Greece, No Persia
Usual stuff ;)

So I went and conquered Italy, got there before Izabella.
I have all France and all Italy, with 6 well placed cities.

1250, and I have Great Library and Sistine built.
I have Optics and now learn Philo...

I am not behind anybody in tech...

Have we made the barbarian hordes too strong? I just saw 10! barbarian axemen spawn out of nowhere to move toward my forest hill fortified praetorians in the alps. I survived, but barely (got lucky)

One other thought about barbarians and unit promotions. Currently in Civ, a unit is limited to 10 XP as a result of barbarian battles. Is that hard coded, or changeable? As these barbarians are sooooo powerful and plentiful, its a shame that our units are limited in promotion, when the barbarians spawn out of nowhere.
 
I made another run of v052 to start it with Spain:

This time ALL CIVS survived! :)

Rome is STRONG, with 5 cities.
Well, one of them is in England - Rhye? :rolleyes:

Greece is the loser with 3 cities left

But yihey, for the fist time in the Catapult I see a big and healthy Persia!
5 cities! Babel, Niniveh on their side!

India is also superb with 6 cities.
 
Flip system works okay, iirc. I was going to use it as Egypt... but I liked winning better to do more than test it for a single turn.

Anyone else forget that Rhye added the ability for civs to collapse into barbs? I had totally forgotten, until I saw barb Egypt and it clicked.

Q: Why are the barbs so raze happy?
Q: Can you take a look at the Ultimate Strategy mod? It has some pretty hawt ideas. It actually took over my GW timeslot!
 
Rhye said:
barbarians have been weakened in the last two builds!

Is the new flip system for human players working?

Soma, what was the name of the city in England btw? :)

It work for AI too ? Would be sad if the human only have this handicap :(
 
Rhye said:
- Any human city can flip if discontent OR with no military units OR under occupation OR with foreign culture (threshold 20%) OR all of the following conditions: (enough distant from capital, AND that isn’t a government center, AND the civ has got a decent amount of cities)
- If it can flip, a popup will appear. If player says no, the new civ declares war and it’s reinforced.
Yay! Thank you, Rhye, you're my hero! :worship: Perfect compromise, sounds like. I'll test it as soon as I get back from job-hunting this afternoon, and as... what the hey, Rome! :goodjob:

Barak said:
Has anyone else played as Japan? I feel that southern Japan is a tad sparse. Settling a city down there ends up leading to a big city with little to no production (even if you mine the incense square).

Also, have we considered allowing settlers to found cities in jungle when Biology is known by the civ? It would help colonization in SE asia.
Historically (at least in Civ scenarios, anyway), southern Japan has never been a power producer, more of a fishing/food resource. I'll test out Japan next, then India.

Not a bad idea about the jungles, either, but I'll have to try it, first. I'm big on land empires. :king: :ar15:

Barak said:
One other thought about barbarians and unit promotions. Currently in Civ, a unit is limited to 10 XP as a result of barbarian battles. Is that hard coded, or changeable? As these barbarians are sooooo powerful and plentiful, its a shame that our units are limited in promotion, when the barbarians spawn out of nowhere.
Also good point. Um, maybe setting the limit a BIT higher, but not quite to the next level (so less than 17). How's that sound? Because I lose a LOT of level 3 guys to those barbs... :viking:

Rhye said:
It is ONLY for the AI
What do you mean? Can the AI choose to whether or not to flip cities?

SilverKnight

P.S.- I love LOVE LOVE the new flip system! *giddy schoolgirl antics ensue* :D
 
Just been playing a bit.

Took Egypt again, seems harder in the recent build, or maybe I was just playing slower. Last game I had five cities or so and was conquering Jersuselem around the time Persia showed up, this game I only had about three and Persia beat me to that area.

Rome seems really powerfull, they've really cleaned up in every game I started so far. They're also really agressive and keep attacking me. :) I noticed too, that China (for some reason) declared war on me when I was Egypt. They took advantage of the stupid bug where they attack you in the middle of your territory when you have ROP and don't get ejected.

I switched to England, which began as Islamic (?), when they spawned, because I was falling way behind. I got a Roman city instead of London. Unfortunately, the Roman city was founded right in the middle of the island and was not a port. I'm not sure if England is supposed to start with any ships, but I didn't. I settled Scotland, Ireland, and moved into Scandinavia. Rome declared war on me sailing all the way around Spain and France to attack me and somehow pulling a huge army out of nowhere in barbarian Scandinavia. Pain in the arse. Then France declared war on me. Has the AI agression been tweaked, or is it just my imagination?

Thoughts:

It would be nice to have a text string displaying the civilizations 'Start Date' when you're picking a civ in the new game setup. Something like: 'Arabia 600 A.D. (Turn 150)'.

Similarly, I would like to see any and all adjustments to a civ in that civilizations civilopedia. If I'm getting 0.8 research as Egypt I should know that.

The only bug I've noticed is that, if you change civilizations partway through a game all your game settings get adjusted. I had to reclick stuff like 'Ask at end of turn', 'Fast moves', and 'Don't recommend action'. They still looked like they were checked, but I had deselect and then select them again.
 
eek, thats annoying.

Game 2 as Spain, colonized the hell out of the new world. Some prime city spots in S. America. Whacked Aztecs, moving in on Incas w/ 10 or so Conquis.

Rome attacked around 12 turns after I spawned, but two xbows and a galley managed to convince them to back off. No continental wars since. Guess no one wants to mess with the Spanish Inquisition.

No collapsed civs this game afaik. France doing okay with 4 cities and a stalemate war vs. Germany.
 
Issues:

Caribbean still not interesting for colonies.
Can we add Plot List Enhanced please? Its hard to live without.
Earlier spy units (w/o actions) would be nice.
Baltic Sea funny looking.
 
Tired. Just did a game with Rome until 1220 AD, noticed a few things, wrote 'em down as I went... will post after... sleep... SO much Civving...

Rome. Rocks. :cooool:

SilverKnight

:sleep:
 
Fintilgin said:
I think Surtur's idea is the best. It's simple, it's clean, and it's easy to understand. Furthermore, keeping your city will take effort, but not be insanely impossible. It will also make it hard to purposefully screw over distant spawns, as it's much harder to project your power really far from your home base. The further from your core the city is, the harder it will be to support it and the more likely it will fall to the barbarians and then flip in a few turns.

Some of these ideas strike me as insanely heavy. It's like saying "Oh, sure, you can try to keep the city YOU founded, but every bordering civilization will declare war on you, three nukes will drop on your most populous cities, half your units will defect, and you'll get a -7 malus to your diplomacy for the rest of the game!"

Let's say, I'm playing Rome and I build up a strong presence in France. I know the barbarians are coming so I prepare my cities well. I build strong garrisons, decent walls, and do my best to prepare myself for the horde. I defeat the barbarians and France dosen't spawn. Is that the end of the world? Maybe that's the way it should be. There's no WAY I'm going to be able to have the resources to prevent all my neighbors from spawning. That's a huge amount of production and time I could have spent on building up other things, so it's not like I'm getting off scott free.

Gameplay shouldn't be a strait-jacket. History was not foreordained. If I want to pour lots of my blood and treasure into holding onto Arabia, or France, or whatever, that should be a viable strategy and not a hopeless cause. It should be tough but far from suicidal. Otherwise I can see city founding and conquest becoming very formuliac for a lot of civilizations.

I mean if you're going to be too hard on the player, you might as well just make it so there are 'barbarian zones' where you can't found cities and all barbarian cities have a 25-defense 0-move defender that dosen't disapear until the city is handed over to its spawning owner. If you don't want the player to take something just keep them from taking it in the first place, don't let them have it and then use massive overwhelming force to take it back. That's not fun.
The historical aspect is important, and fun. What made RoC so awesome, I think, is that we somehow got the game to often behave pretty much like real history in many ways. That was great. That is what we need to try to do.
SilverKnight said:
Ok, to recap:

Fintilgin has made some very good points about city-flipping; I agree completely about how frustrating it would be to automatically lose cities simply to replay history. Rhye's mods (at least my old favorites, RoC and RoCX) nor the Civilization game as a series have never been about simply re-creating history. The most important things are fun and feasibilty. It's also good that the mechanics of the game are easily explained; Blasphemous' first suggestion seems near-impossible to decipher in-game, compared to culture. On the other hand, I agree completely that it was not always attacking barbarian hordes that formed a new civilization; RATHER...

*dramatic pause*

It was a NUMBER of DISTRACTIONS that kept the original empire busy when a new civilization was forming!!! Think about it; Rome was founded when Greece was over-extending itself in trade and colonization of the Mediterranean. America was formed in revolt, but because it was far away from Britain, under its cultural influence less, and there was a lot of unhappiness due to taxes. Spain and France have direct roots in Roman conquests, and started becoming a civilization after Rome was trying desperately to fend off the Huns, Visigoths, etc. So what does all this mean in Civ terms?

Rome: Greece had too many cities, too high maintenance, so even a close colony split off.

America: Far-flung colony, little English culture built up, too much dedicated to taxe slider rather than culture.

Spain, France: Barbarian horse archers pummeling Roman cities (several were taken and razed, IRL), people of even nearby European colonies on the frontier became fearful, demanded greater military presence; none came, cause of unhappiness maybe? Eventually cities fell to barbarians, taken (if in capital location) or razed, then new civ springs up in their wake. Thus the decline of Rome!

And our classic example, Arabia:

Arabia: Jerusalem was fighting ground against barbarians for many turns, continuous un-repelled attacks (from barbs ONLY) means discontent. Arabia springs up with new religion, but LITTLE STARTING CULTURE, to match history. Instead, they get one city, MANY starting attacking units, and missionaries. The way is open for them to make peace with their neighbors and try to spread their religion, or use force and attack neighboring civs with their starting Camel Archers as happened IRL. They can even, say, make peace with Egypt and attack India, or vice versa. They don't need to start with many cities; historically they didn't, anyway.

SO! What's this mean for actually making it happen in game? What are the variables?

Chances of a city flipping go UP with:
Total discontent
Distance from city
Total maintence costs of ALL cities (and/or total number of cities)
Barbarian attacks that make it to a city (so it's beneficial to attack barbs in the field rather than have them suicide on your defenses)
Ongoing foreign wars (more troops in enemy territory than in own territory; neutral lands count for neither)

Chances go DOWN with:
Military presence
Culture in city
Higher culture rate
Good foreign relations
Tech superiority

These variables are the same for every spawning civ, and they all make sense, too. And this is a one-time deal; either the city flips or it doesn't. Obviously new Civs need a capitol, and MAYBE another city or two, but that's it. The hard part is juggling all of the factors before-hand, rather than "spawn camping" a new civ. Arabia might be an exception in that it will start with a massive military and religious presence (missionaries); America will still have some guns, and quite a lot of British or other cities nearby will flip; they can take the rest. The AI shouldn't be that defended, anyway; otherwise the barbs need more tweaking.

Did anybody actually read all that? Kudos and thanks! :goodjob: I'll step down from my high horse, now.

SilverKnight
I like this idea better than my own. Mine was too micromangement-ridden, in retrospect.

Gotta run, can't read or write any more. Bah.
 
- a different aggression level is just imagination
- plot list enhanced shares no files with catapult, so I guess it's perfectly safe and working unzipping it in customassets
- the baltic has already been changed the 1st time you said that, I can't do much more than this
- I'll add some more resources to the caribbean
- there's nothing i can do about the game options bug
 
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