Rhye's Catapult

While implementing the German roads ability, I realized that's just the Commando promotion.
That means that 3 civs (Germany, Spain, Japan) get a promotion bonus IN ADDITION to the current one (for the ones who don't know, it is currently assigned a "Military bonus" to each civ that consists in a promotion to a branch of units.
As other civs have military-related (but not promotions) UP too, imo there are only 2 possibilites:

1. Remove at least the 3 promotions from the UP system (bye bye sentry and melee. Blitzkrieg could me moved to the military bonuses instead) and replace them with "peaceful" powers.
Something scientific for Germany, and so on.


2. Remove the Military bonuses and merge them with the UP system, taking advantage of the fact that some promotions are currently uselss (woodsman for India).
Blasph's terrain bonuses would follow the same concept, being included in here in Egypt and Russia

The new system would become this way:
Code: 
EGY	Nile		No desert movement cost
IND	Spirituality	No anarchy
CHI	Numbers		1.25X train speed melee and gunpowder units
GRE	Philosophy	Starts with a golden age / Cities start with 50 culture
ROM	Legions		[B][I]Melee Units - March[/I][/B]
PER	Satrapy		Vassallage enabled since the beginning + 2X production speed courthouse / No distance maintenance cost
JAP	Honor		[B][I]Archery units - City Garrison I[/I][/B]
SPA	Discovery	[B][I]Naval units - Navigation I[/I][/B]
ARA	Faith		State religion spreads to conquered cities + converts any other religions temple or cathedral in Islamic
FRA	Entente		Convert barbarian units and cities + convert a % of non-european units
ENG	Navy		1.5X train speed naval units
GER	Blitzkrieg	[B][I]Gunpowder Units - Commando[/I][/B]
RUS	Motherland	Enemy units damaged in Russian territories / can't heal in Russian territories
MAL	Wealth		1 trade in plots with 2 trade
INC	Agriculture	1 food in plots with 2 food / Mountains produce 2 food
MON	Horde		Free pillage (without costing a turn) / Double pillage rate
AZT	Sacrifice	Enslave ability
AME	American Dream	Population migrates from other civs


(a + means AND, a / means OR)


what do you think?
 
Wow, I'm very intrigued by it! Very very nice!
 
Here are the ones I like the most so far (although I might play with them a bit). They just work. The moment you read them, you say "yes!"

IND Spirituality No anarchy
GRE Philosophy Starts with a golden age / Cities start with 50 culture
JAP Honor Archery units - City Garrison I
SPA Discovery Naval units - Navigation I
GER Blitzkrieg Gunpowder Units - Commando
AZT Sacrifice Enslave ability
MON Horde Free pillage (without costing a turn) / Double pillage rate
PER Satrapy Vassallage enabled since the beginning + 2X production speed courthouse / No distance maintenance cost
AME American Dream Population migrates from other civs

Here are a few I'm on the fence about:

ARA Faith State religion spreads to conquered cities + converts any other religions temple or cathedral in Islamic
--> I may have misunderstood you -- but I hope this doesn't force Arabia to be Islamic. Although maybe this is what you want for such a historical mod.

CHI Numbers 1.25X train speed melee and gunpowder units
--> China is the longest standing civilization in history. I think it would be tremendous to reflect this. "Legalist" would be a good way to describe it, since this is one of their oldest philosophical traditions. Numbers works, but something that deals with their stability might be more interesting and fun.

ENG Navy 1.5X train speed naval units
--> This works, I guess. But I feel like we can do better. Just not sure what. There HAS to be lots of English people around who have an opinion or two.

MAL Wealth 1 trade in plots with 2 trade
--> This works too. And someone ought to get the financial bonus -- and the source of most of the world's gold and diamonds (and, for a time, salt) deserves that. But I also suggest "Exotic" -- because they attracted lots of travellers. Muslims (and Christians) from all around the world went to Timbuktu to study the cutting edge of philosophy and theology. Their library was gigantic. The wealth was attractive. But so was the legendary variety of animal life, imported from all around the world. It might make a lot of sense to give them an interesting bonus, like 3 extra trade routes in their capitol.


Here's a few that need some massaging:

ROM Legions Melee Units - March
--> Rather than "Legions", how about "Imperator" or "Imperial"? I think this describes Rome's legendary age a little better.

RUS Motherland Enemy units damaged in Russian territories / can't heal in Russian territories
--> At risk of provoking any resentment, Russia has a strong tradition of Iron Fist, autocratic style leaders. It would be great to draw this in, somehow. "Organized" would be a nice way of saying it.

EGY Nile No desert movement cost
--> Not crazy about this name OR effect -- much too narrow for my liking. I think the Pharoah idea was better, although I might call it Apotheosis. Give them their own unique state religion at startup, perhaps, that generates no happiness or gold, but allows them to leverage religious civics. Another interesting aspect of Egypt is the cyclical aspect of their culture -- with the flooding of the nile annually, it's no surprise that they'd start to see history in cyclical terms. Even the dynasties reflected that -- perhaps they should get instant access to Hereditary Rule.

FRA Entente Convert barbarian units and cities + convert a % of non-european units
--> I think it would be great to give France a 'political' effect, since they've been so central in a lot of civic changes. Absolute Monarchy with Louis XIV, Nationalism with Napoleon, and one of the first Democracies. They have a long history of a strong intelligentsia. Something that deals with civics and politics would be ideal.

INC Agriculture 1 food in plots with 2 food / Mountains produce 2 food
--> This kind of leaves me feeling uninspired. One unique aspect of the Incans was the Quipu -- a system of rope-tying that was equivelent to writing systems around the world. Hard to know the effect, of course -- it was just something that made it harder for the Spanish to oppress them, since it was harder for outsiders to understand. Perhaps this is a cultural effect. Another idea is that Ayllu -- an extended family unit that sometimes adopted non-blood members. This could lead to less city maintainance costs, since these large units would share responsibilities of education and food.

--------------

All just my own personal thoughts. It's your mod, so you're welcome to disagree and run with it any way you see fit :)

Also, something to keep in mind, you might want to leave room for some of the new warlords Civs. The Vikings will definitely need some naval attributes!
 
The new system would become this way:
Code: 
EGY	Nile		No desert movement cost
IND	Spirituality	No anarchy
CHI	Numbers		1.25X train speed melee and gunpowder units
GRE	Philosophy	Starts with a golden age / Cities start with 50 culture
ROM	Legions		[B][I]Melee Units - March[/I][/B]
PER	Satrapy		Vassallage enabled since the beginning + 2X production speed courthouse / No distance maintenance cost
JAP	Honor		[B][I]Archery units - City Garrison I[/I][/B]
SPA	Discovery	[B][I]Naval units - Navigation I[/I][/B]
ARA	Faith		State religion spreads to conquered cities + converts any other religions temple or cathedral in Islamic
FRA	Entente		Convert barbarian units and cities + convert a % of non-european units
ENG	Navy		1.5X train speed naval units
GER	Blitzkrieg	[B][I]Gunpowder Units - Commando[/I][/B]
RUS	Motherland	Enemy units damaged in Russian territories / can't heal in Russian territories
MAL	Wealth		1 trade in plots with 2 trade
INC	Agriculture	1 food in plots with 2 food / Mountains produce 2 food
MON	Horde		Free pillage (without costing a turn) / Double pillage rate
AZT	Sacrifice	Enslave ability
AME	American Dream	Population migrates from other civs


(a + means AND, a / means OR)


what do you think?[/QUOTE]

One-by-one:

Egypt: I suspect this means that Egypt will be more likely to expand across Africa, which it seems to do a little bit too much in the mod already. How about +1 food from floodplains?

India: Old school Civ here, but India is not a civilization known for its dramatically changing governmental system. How about the Indians start with Free Religion, in order to recognize the diversity of their religious system? This one would need to be playtested, of course.

China: I still like my idea of lowering city gold cost to recognize that the Chinese have, uh, a lot of cities.

Greeks: Sounds good, but needs to be playtested.

Rome: I've been playing as the Romans and they seem pretty damn strong to me already, so I have no real comment here.

Persia: Sounds excellent - their organization is what made them last. The Persians are also quite powerful, though, so it would need to be playtested.

Japan: Sounds simple enough.

Spain: This looks good enough.

Arabia: Again, I strongly disagree with this. It's not terribly historical and not terribly useful. I like the idea of spawning camel archers after taking a city. Islam's spead, not its repression, is the most interesting part of its history. Hell, some Turkish girls almost converted me last week.

France: I'd have to see how it plays. If it doesn't work, I might suggest an improvement in relations with foreign powers, to represent French skill in diplomacy.

England: No arguments here, unless it's unbalancing.

Germany: Tough one here. I don't really like it historically - the Blitzkrieg is of course important in one war, but I wouldn't call it a defining instrument of German history. I might instead recommend a speed increase in researching military technology - Bismarck needed those needleguns!

Russia: Sounds too powerful, but good. I would attach it to the level of Russian culture in a square.

Mali: Let's try it.

Inca: Tougher call, but as with Mali, worth a try.

Mongols: Do whatever needs to be done to the Mongols to make them an explosive power in the middle ages. This seems a little too subtle, but it might work if the Keshiks are made powerful enough.

Aztecs: Let's see how it plays.

America: I don't really like this one in theory, it seems like it would be too difficult to work right and too subtle to work well. But I haven't really dealt with America at all, so who knows?
 
So are these total replacements of each leader's traits? Or additions to them?


Egypt: Rather weak I think. I'd be in favor of a flood plain food bonus, or monarchy.

India: I think this is good.

China: This seems balanced, though I'd think a population bonus would be more appropriate.

Greeks: Sounds good.

Rome: Sounds good.

Persia: Sounds good.

Japan: Kinda tame. Especially compared to commando or march as a free promotion. Commando & march are two of the hardest to get promotions, whereas city defense is available to all archery units right off the bat.

Spain: Very underpowered compared to the other free promotion civs. See my comments for Japan.

Arabia: I think this is perfect.

France: How would this work?

England: Sounds good.

Germany: A very powerful promotion to give.

Russia: I like this.

Mali: Sounds good.

Inca: Maybe allow the Quechas to cross mountains.

Mongols: Sounds good.

Aztecs: How does this work exactly?

America: I love this one, perfect fit historically and a great new game mechanic to use. Plus being a late civ, extra population will do America a lot of good.
 
I want to know first which one of the two proposals I posted yesterday night works better for you.

I personally have a preference but I'll tell you later

Now, about these last comments:


Egypt -> I strongly don't want to give more food to them, because I've already fought a war with modifiers and flood plains to limit their huge quantity of food. Enabling Hereditary Rule, Slavery and Theocracy would be fine but would affect only the beginning of the game. And that isn't actually that bad, as it woulkd be very realistic in the egyptian case, and because most of the other powers have effects that are useful only in certain cases.
The word Apoteosys would be ok but sounds weird in Italian, "Apoteosi" has another meaning and it would confuse people

India -> The 'No anarchy' attribute is free and has to be assigned to one civ

China -> same with my fears of extra food

Rome -> "Empire" is better? Not when it was a republic

Arabia -> sorry I meant their state religion, not necessarily Islam. (But it will be Islam most of the times in the scenario).
I proposed the temple/cathedral replacement because it's what exactly happened in reality (Dome of the Rock, Hagia Sophia, etc.). They love to convert churches and synagogues in mosques

Russia -> you can't say it will be under or overpowered as long as I (we) don't decide the rate of the effect


OzzyKP said:
So are these total replacements of each leader's traits? Or additions to them?
Click to expand...

Not exactly.
Leaders traits were already removed, but modifiers were added regarding culture, production, gold, research, health etc. were added some pages ago.
The reason was that some traits didn't have a sense anymore (expansive health bonus for instance, as modifiers give a -1 to +4 health to any civ).
Modifiers initially should have only balanced the advantage of early civs.
But tweaking them allowed to form a profile of each civ - more culture, more wonders, less military, more worker speed, and so on. So civs now aren't limited to 2 traits but are more blurred.
Their strength can be seen in the civ screen selection, with a rating of 5 stars

here's the list of modifiers that affect the rating:

Trade = civic cost mod, unit support mod, maintenance mod, proximity to water, luxuries + starting techs, research cost mod
Production = hammers, unit cost mod, building cost mod, wonders cost mod
Culture = culture mod, GP mod, religions
Growth = growth mod, food, size of cities, health mod, upgrade time mod, work rate mod
Starting situation = starting location, starting era, barbarians presence, starting units, starting techs
Click to expand...
 
Rhye said:
I don't think I have a chance to win.
I am not aiming to do a "massive" mod or the best mod ever, I'm just looking for something different, an original idea for a niche. And an epic massive mod will win for sure.
Click to expand...
I would not be so sure. What is the best one or civ3? I think that originality is the most important parameter of valutation.

Sure, Civ4 allows you to change the game in very brand new ways and we have seen this potential with FfH and the works of TheLopez; these are not parts of a "simple" massive mod with a lot of confusing and anti-aesthetical new civs, units and techs.
 
Spoiler UEs by Rhye :

Code: 
EGY    Nile        No desert movement cost
IND    Spirituality    No anarchy
CHI    Numbers        1.25X train speed melee and gunpowder units
GRE    Philosophy    Starts with a golden age / Cities start with 50 culture
ROM    Legions        [B][I]Melee Units - March[/I][/B]
PER    Satrapy        Vassallage enabled since the beginning + 2X production speed courthouse / No distance maintenance cost
JAP    Honor        [B][I]Archery units - City Garrison I[/I][/B]
SPA    Discovery    [B][I]Naval units - Navigation I[/I][/B]
ARA    Faith        State religion spreads to conquered cities + converts any other religions temple or cathedral in Islamic
FRA    Entente        Convert barbarian units and cities + convert a % of non-european units
ENG    Navy        1.5X train speed naval units
GER    Blitzkrieg    [B][I]Gunpowder Units - Commando[/I][/B]
RUS    Motherland    Enemy units damaged in Russian territories / can't heal in Russian territories
MAL    Wealth        1 trade in plots with 2 trade
INC    Agriculture    1 food in plots with 2 food / Mountains produce 2 food
MON    Horde        Free pillage (without costing a turn) / Double pillage rate
AZT    Sacrifice    Enslave ability
AME    American Dream    Population migrates from other civs
I agree it would be good to merge military unit abilities and UEs into only UEs.
The following is a mixture of comments on the UEs presented above by Rhye and ideas of mine for better/alternative UEs. Look below the list for explanations of the less obvious ideas.
Code: 
EGY    Kingdom of the Nile    Each tile of floodplains worked gives +1 happiness, cities with 5 or more floodplains worked get a free priest
IND    Spirituality            Start with Free Religion active and always available
CHI    ?                  Each city with less population than the capital receives +1 happiness
GRE    Philosophy              Starts with an 8-turn golden age
ROM    Senate                  Start with Representation available
PER    Satrapy                 Starts with Vassallage available + double Courthose production speed
JAP     -                      City Garrison for all archery units doesn't make much sense and is underpowered
SPA     -                      Proposed UE is underpowered
ARA    Faith                     State Religion spreads to conquered cities + any temples in the city are replaced with one SR temple
FRA    Diplomacy               +2 bonus to starting diplomatic position with other civs, disappears for good if war is declared with given civ
ENG    Colonialistic Bliss     +1 happiness for every two luxury resources in city
GER    ?                         Science bonus per pop in cities: +1% basic bonus, +2% with library, +4% with university
RUS    Motherland             Enemy units damaged in Russian Forests and Snow (fixed rate per turn, and a pretty high one at that)
MAL    Wealth                  +2 trade routes in capital, +1 in five big cities (including capital - can get +3 together)
INC    ?                       +1 food, health, and happiness in cities with two or more mountains in their fat x
MON    Horde                  [I][B]Mounted Units - Blitz[/B][/I]
AZT    Sacrifice               +1 happiness in nearest city for 3 turns when enemy unit killed
AME    Beacon of Democracy    No anarchy as long as Representation or Universal Sufferage is in
Disordered explanations for the less obvious ideas:
China: This is just a way of giving some of China's cities more happiness and allowing China to become huge. It would require a large and powerful capital to be effective, which makes a lot of sense. Maybe it should be +2.
Germany: I tend to agree with Arkaeyn after all - Blitzkrieg isn't such a representative Unique Effect for Germany. Germans are very proud of the German legacy of education, culture and thinking, and what I suggest here attempts to reflect that. It may become a bit overpowering in later ages, so a cap of +25% may be appropriate (otherwise a city with a university may easily reach +60%).
America: I assume America starts with rather advanced civics so that shouldn't be part of the UE (if not they should start with representation). The logic behind no anarchy for America is simplt that the style of government has changed often over time but the stability of American Democracy has held things together rather well through it all (except maybe for the great depression which was not the gov't's fault.)
 
Blasphemous said:
Spoiler UEs by Blasph :
Code: 
EGY    Kingdom of the Nile    Each tile of floodplains worked gives +1 happiness, cities with 5 or more floodplains worked get a free priest
IND    Spirituality            Start with Free Religion active and always available
CHI    ?                  Each city with less population than the capital receives +1 happiness
GRE    Philosophy              Starts with an 8-turn golden age
ROM    Senate                  Start with Representation available
PER    Satrapy                 Starts with Vassallage available + double Courthose production speed
JAP     -                      City Garrison for all archery units doesn't make much sense and is underpowered
SPA     -                      Proposed UE is underpowered
ARA    Faith                     State Religion spreads to conquered cities + any temples in the city are replaced with one SR temple
FRA    Diplomacy               +2 bonus to starting diplomatic position with other civs, disappears for good if war is declared with given civ
ENG    Colonialistic Bliss     +1 happiness for every two luxury resources in city
GER    ?                         Science bonus per pop in cities: +1% basic bonus, +2% with library, +4% with university
RUS    Motherland             Enemy units damaged in Russian Forests and Snow (fixed rate per turn, and a pretty high one at that)
MAL    Wealth                  +2 trade routes in capital, +1 in five big cities (including capital - can get +3 together)
INC    ?                       +1 food, health, and happiness in cities with two or more mountains in their fat x
MON    Horde                  [I][B]Mounted Units - Blitz[/B][/I]
AZT    Sacrifice               +1 happiness in nearest city for 3 turns when enemy unit killed
AME    Beacon of Democracy    No anarchy as long as Representation or Universal Sufferage is in
Click to expand...

What I don't get here, is the Roman bonus. The Roman Senate, even under the Republic, had hardly anything to do with representation as such. This is even more true for the Principate/Dominate period. Moreover, its existance is by no means the most important characteristic of the Roman Empire. I think that the Roman trait should represent either the Republic's and early empire's phenomenal army recruitment capabilities (very low unit support? easier drafting?), or the extent of itts instrastructure (roads provide x4 faster travel for military units? or perhaps x1,5 prodution when buildiong aqueducts/colosseums).

When it comes to the Greeks there are at least 2 traits which I find at least as important as 'philosophy'. First of all, the institution of the polis (access to more advanced civics? or perhaps cheap temples and naval vessels (via liturgies)). Secondly, the rivarly/sport aspect of their society (+1 or even +2 health per city?).

That said, I must admit that I love the idea of Colonialistic Bliss :)
 
Good luck, Rhye. I know you'll figure out something that works for both history and fun gameplay.
 
HypnosTene said:
The Roman Senate, even under the Republic, had hardly anything to do with representation as such. This is even more true for the Principate/Dominate period. Moreover, its existance is by no means the most important characteristic of the Roman Empire.
Click to expand...
Well, Representation here can simply represent more efficient or effective government.
But I digress - a more directly logistical UE would be more appropriate.
Rhye said:
mmm, another idea for Rome:
roads allow 3x movement instead of 2x
Click to expand...
Just +1 road movement seems a bit underpowered. How about that, plus 1 free :traderoute: in all cities above size 8?

In other news, I just played my first test of the mod (and my first Civ 4 since mid March) and it was pretty good. I played as Rome for a couple of hours (in game terms until a couple turns after France spawns) and my two main impressions are that it feels very weird to play in such an empty Europe and that the system of refusing to let go of cities to new civs requires some work. There was just something off about the way things progressed once I refused to let go of Gades and then Lutetia Parisiorum (or whatever that founded Paris city is called). It's also awfully weird how a large amount of units appears out of thin air to found a new civ.
I don't have any concrete ideas yet but I'll make sure to post them as soon as I do.
 
I think also we should view these things not only in historical terms and gameplay terms, but also in these terms in conjunction with unique units and perhaps even unique buildings, if there's a plan for this to work with Warlords.

Praetorians, for Rome, seem very powerful in Rome's early game. So I'm not sure the Romans need to be powered up at the start of the game. In fact, I might offer an alternative suggestion to indicate Rome's power culturally since the fall of Western Rome.
 
Rhye said:
Code: 
EGY	Nile		No desert movement cost
IND	Spirituality	No anarchy
CHI	Numbers		1.25X train speed melee and gunpowder units
GRE	Philosophy	Starts with a golden age / Cities start with 50 culture
ROM	Legions		[B][I]Melee Units - March[/I][/B]
PER	Satrapy		Vassallage enabled since the beginning + 2X production speed courthouse / No distance maintenance cost
JAP	Honor		[B][I]Archery units - City Garrison I[/I][/B]
SPA	Discovery	[B][I]Naval units - Navigation I[/I][/B]
ARA	Faith		State religion spreads to conquered cities + converts any other religions temple or cathedral in Islamic
FRA	Entente		Convert barbarian units and cities + convert a % of non-european units
ENG	Navy		1.5X train speed naval units
GER	Blitzkrieg	[B][I]Gunpowder Units - Commando[/I][/B]
RUS	Motherland	Enemy units damaged in Russian territories / can't heal in Russian territories
MAL	Wealth		1 trade in plots with 2 trade
INC	Agriculture	1 food in plots with 2 food / Mountains produce 2 food
MON	Horde		Free pillage (without costing a turn) / Double pillage rate
AZT	Sacrifice	Enslave ability
AME	American Dream	Population migrates from other civs
Click to expand...
My turn! :)

France seems random. I vote for the diplo bonus.

Don't like the idea of an impenetrable Russia, but it may be necessary.

Mali is already FAR more powerful than it was IRL.

A human player could make Inca too populous if it colonized the rest of South America (around Argentina, say).

I like the Mongolian pillage, but exactly how would it work? Could a Keshik raze a Town completely, move closer to a city, raze another whole Town, then attack?

I'll test anything! :goodjob:

SilverKnight
 
I agree with many people in here that France would be better of with a diplomatical bonus. (a plus 2 relations modifier would work as Rhye's catapult is played only in singleplayer). It may sound cynical, but If you really want to place the "no anarchy"-bonus somewhere, France might be better than India. They've been changing governments and what else the civics represent all the time, (just think of the fifth republic! ;)). Well, not exactly unbloody (French Revolution, Napoleon III, Louis XIV, etc.), but that's not important. It would be impossible for them to change civics as often as in rl with anarchy, so for the sake of gameplay, let them have no anarchy.

Other than that, I think the propositions in this thread are rather good, good work again.

mitsho
 
I quote myself:

It may sound cynical
Click to expand...

and

They've been changing governments. ... Well, not exactly unbloody (French Revolution, Napoleon III, Louis XIV, etc.), but that's not important.
Click to expand...

It is important that they've been changing governments all the time, more than other civs. Bloodiness is not measured in length (the other way round, the shorter the revolution takes, the bloodier it is).
Therefore the "no anarchy" of civ does not symbolize (for gameplays sake!) non-bloodiness, but a high pace. Is it now more clear?

In any case, it is better than your "barbarian conversion" idea. I don't know where you got that idea from? The French were not better (moreso worse) than other European colonial powers (just ask the algerians). I don't like that idea at all to be honest.

What are the French famous for?
Diplomacy (French is/was the language for diplomacy) and many more non-civ-like things.
Therefore I'd suggest you take some sort of diplomacy-bonus.

m
 
French are famous for stealing art from others, like with Napoleon...

I'm the only one here who thinks that working mountains for Incans is useless?
 
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