[BNW] Rhye's Catapult 2020-06-02

[TheMarshmallowBear]

I think the logic was related to their bonuses rather than their history

Pyramids gave 2 free workers and faster Improvement Build time, which makes sense for Liberty which encourages rapid expansion.

Tradition is focused on tall gameplay, so Hanging Gardens, which give a growth boost in the city is built also makes sense.

 

[the_roof]

It is true that it was faster to build a huge Roman Empire in Civ 4 - RFC. I see multiple factors:

• many cities spawned in Gaul, Spain, even London, and without always a unit to defend them
• with the combat system of Civ 4, any city could be conquered in 1 turn
• the great wall could keep barbs out, which means you could focus your troops on conquering rather than defending (except for a few celts)
• more technologies were given to Rome at start (fishing boats and galleys for example)
• slavery helped rush production
• you could get extra army at start if a civ refused to give independence to a city in your flip zone

Maybe the cost of settlers can be adjusted in some cases to allow for fast expansion. I started a game with USA and it announced 40+ turns to build a settlers, when the buildings/other units had low costs (2-3 turns).

I'm wondering, what slowed you down to expand, except techs?

Luxuries, production and neighborhood. First of all - you can't grow without luxuries, so you have to wait for techs to improve them. Second - you can build colosseums, but they costs to much, so you build granaries and lighthouses and watermills to grow your cities, and this takes time.
And third - you have to spend production on army, because your neighbors will definitely attac you sooner or later. And Carthago will be very tough enemy because of its quintrirem. So, if you play Rome - you build in Rome granary, monument, barracks and Colosseum to get +25 production bonus in other cities, then you build an army to protect yourself, and then you go to war, because you short on gold. And you will finish all of this in first century AD.
By the way I don't build Great Wall in Rome in Civ iv even if I can, to make the game more challenging.

 

[the_roof]

I think the logic was related to their bonuses rather than their history

Pyramids gave 2 free workers and faster Improvement Build time, which makes sense for Liberty which encourages rapid expansion.

Tradition is focused on tall gameplay, so Hanging Gardens, which give a growth boost in the city is built also makes sense.

And that's why Egypt in the mod don't need Pyramids - there is not much tiles to improve, so I deleted workers, I got by Pyramids in Egypt.

 

[the_roof]

nah. It's done on purpose.
Units killed, map cleared, no complexity added.

When you you get your unique unit in civ v, you build them as many, as you can to upgrade them lately. You care about them, don't put them in danger, because of their unique abilities. And then the plague comes and they die. That's very frustrating.

 

[the_roof]

can you specify in particular which phase seems short:
- from 3000 BC to the spawn of Greece and Phoenicia
- from Greece/Phoenicia to Rome/Persia
- from Rome/Persia to Byzantium/Huns
- from Byzantium/Huns to European civs

also Medieval, Renaissance, Industrial, Atomic, Information, are they all okay?

Played Germany again. In 1812 I had a nuclear weapons, panzers and bombers. And I was playing with this mod, because AI sometimes is stupid enough not to pick Rationalism policies, so everyone around me had bombers and nuclear weapons. So I think, other eras could be shorter, especially - Renaissance. By the way, I completed the Manhattan project in 3 turns, so you can put it back to Nuclear Fusion technology and make it more expensive, and reduce uranium sources quantity, otherwise the late game will always end in nuclear holocaust.
And, could you make ships and embarked movements more fast, if you will make the game shorter? And I will ask you again about Civ IV diplomacy mod, because now in a late game everyone hates everyone. And make triplanes and fighters to be produced without oil?

 

[the_roof]

uhm...it should be relatively easy.
Pls also consider that I greatly understimated the amount of work needed for this mod. I thought a couple of months for Catapult and a few more for the complete version. It's already 1 year now.

In civ 6 districts sometimes make sense. Especially, harbor districts, like Ostia was a harbor district for Rome, which actually wasn't a port city, or Piraeus is a harbor district of Athens.

 

[Rhye]

When you you get your unique unit in civ v, you build them as many, as you can to upgrade them lately. You care about them, don't put them in danger, because of their unique abilities. And then the plague comes and they die. That's very frustrating.

hehe, one answer: social distance.
There are ways to save your units

 

[Rhye]

Played Germany again. In 1812 I had a nuclear weapons, panzers and bombers. And I was playing with this mod, because AI sometimes is stupid enough not to pick Rationalism policies, so everyone around me had bombers and nuclear weapons. So I think, other eras could be shorter, especially - Renaissance. By the way, I completed the Manhattan project in 3 turns, so you can put it back to Nuclear Fusion technology and make it more expensive, and reduce uranium sources quantity, otherwise the late game will always end in nuclear holocaust.
And, could you make ships and embarked movements more fast, if you will make the game shorter? And I will ask you again about Civ IV diplomacy mod, because now in a late game everyone hates everyone. And make triplanes and fighters to be produced without oil?

this sounds to me like a cost balance problem rather than of era length.
Manhattan project can't be 3 turns

 

[PiR]

this sounds to me like a cost balance problem rather than of era length.
Manhattan project can't be 3 turns

I ran a USA game on Settler difficulty where Bismarck got Manhattan in 1870 as well.
Maybe he wanted the 1870 war with France to go even faster than it actually did.
Tech cost and project cost could probably be adjusted to fix this yes.
Although it could happend in Civ 4 RFC as well with a snowballing empire.

 

[Rhye]

I ran a USA game on Settler difficulty where Bismarck got Manhattan in 1870 as well.
Maybe he wanted the 1870 war with France to go even faster than it actually did.
Tech cost and project cost could probably be adjusted to fix this yes.
Although it could happend in Civ 4 RFC as well with a snowballing empire.

since a recent fix of a fluctuating costs bug, I had to do some deep changes which broke the established pace balance. I'll address this again. Pls don't bother

 

[the_roof]

this sounds to me like a cost balance problem rather than of era length.
Manhattan project can't be 3 turns

It's not just a cost, the game for medieval civs is now really too long.
And, yes, it can, I'll make a screen, If you don't believe. Germany has a production bonus from it's Hanse unique building, for England in the same circumstances it will be 5 turns. But still, it's too cheap.

 

[PiR]

It's not just a cost, the game for medieval civs is now really too long.
And, yes, it can, I'll make a screen, If you don't believe. Germany has a production bonus from it's Hanse unique building, for England in the same circumstances it will be 5 turns. But still, it's too cheap.

I think he believes you, but "it can't" is used as "it shouldn't"

 

[PiR]

Luxuries, production and neighborhood. First of all - you can't grow without luxuries, so you have to wait for techs to improve them. Second - you can build colosseums, but they costs to much, so you build granaries and lighthouses and watermills to grow your cities, and this takes time. And third - you have to spend production on army, because your neighbors will definitely attac you sooner or later. And Carthago will be very tough enemy because of its quintrirem.

For luxuries: there are the following Marble, Truffle, Wine, Crab + 2 natural wonders in Italy, Citrus and Silver close by. The blocking part as you said is tech. It's too soon to give the Romans the calendar. Giving them Trapping or Sailing would solve the issue.
For Punic wars: it seems obvious to search Sailing > Optics but I get it on 1st century also. Embarking units could be moved to sailing OR sailing could be given to the Romans on birth.
I saw improvements appearing on tiles, like lumber mills, that I guess Rhye designed to help with production.
Although I agree units are expensive and you generally need 2 units to conquer a city. Chopping only brings 20 when a legion costs 95. I miss the slavery mechanic from IV.

I guess just giving sailing to the Romans would solve a lot of all that, without even making the era longer.
However I must agree I very much enjoy playing this part. The loading times are small, it's so much nicer than playing the USA!

And that's why Egypt in the mod don't need Pyramids - there is not much tiles to improve, so I deleted workers, I got by Pyramids in Egypt.

Agree, there is much less to improve than in 4. Mostly they need an access to the Mediterranean and I think that's OK.

 

[Rhye]

Embarking units could be moved to sailing OR sailing could be given to the Romans on birth.
I saw improvements appearing on tiles, like lumber mills, that I guess Rhye designed to help with production.

I've made heavy changes in the new version, including moving embarking to Sailing

 

[MAHRana]

Do you mind if we use your code to try port this onto Civ 6?

 

[Rhye]

Do you mind if we use your code to try port this onto Civ 6?

not until this is completely finished.
Thank you.

 

[tariqari]

I have come back from the dead literally just to say WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOO! RFC was my main jam in the late 2000s and I occasionally revisit and check to see if a future RFC would meet Civ V. I am soooo ridiculously happy to see there will be a continuation of the BEST strategy mod ever created

 

[the_roof]

For luxuries: there are the following Marble, Truffle, Wine, Crab + 2 natural wonders in Italy, Citrus and Silver close by. The blocking part as you said is tech. It's too soon to give the Romans the calendar. Giving them Trapping or Sailing would solve the issue.
For Punic wars: it seems obvious to search Sailing > Optics but I get it on 1st century also. Embarking units could be moved to sailing OR sailing could be given to the Romans on birth.
I saw improvements appearing on tiles, like lumber mills, that I guess Rhye designed to help with production.
Although I agree units are expensive and you generally need 2 units to conquer a city. Chopping only brings 20 when a legion costs 95. I miss the slavery mechanic from IV.

I guess just giving sailing to the Romans would solve a lot of all that, without even making the era longer.
However I must agree I very much enjoy playing this part. The loading times are small, it's so much nicer than playing the USA!


Agree, there is much less to improve than in 4. Mostly they need an access to the Mediterranean and I think that's OK.

For luxuries: there are the following Marble, Truffle, Wine, Crab + 2 natural wonders in Italy, Citrus and Silver close by. The blocking part as you said is tech. It's too soon to give the Romans the calendar. Giving them Trapping or Sailing would solve the issue.
For Punic wars: it seems obvious to search Sailing > Optics but I get it on 1st century also. Embarking units could be moved to sailing OR sailing could be given to the Romans on birth.
I saw improvements appearing on tiles, like lumber mills, that I guess Rhye designed to help with production.
Although I agree units are expensive and you generally need 2 units to conquer a city. Chopping only brings 20 when a legion costs 95. I miss the slavery mechanic from IV.

I guess just giving sailing to the Romans would solve a lot of all that, without even making the era longer.
However I must agree I very much enjoy playing this part. The loading times are small, it's so much nicer than playing the USA!


Agree, there is much less to improve than in 4. Mostly they need an access to the Mediterranean and I think that's OK.

For luxuries: there are the following Marble, Truffle, Wine, Crab + 2 natural wonders in Italy, Citrus and Silver close by. The blocking part as you said is tech. It's too soon to give the Romans the calendar. Giving them Trapping or Sailing would solve the issue.
For Punic wars: it seems obvious to search Sailing > Optics but I get it on 1st century also. Embarking units could be moved to sailing OR sailing could be given to the Romans on birth.
I saw improvements appearing on tiles, like lumber mills, that I guess Rhye designed to help with production.
Although I agree units are expensive and you generally need 2 units to conquer a city. Chopping only brings 20 when a legion costs 95. I miss the slavery mechanic from IV.

I guess just giving sailing to the Romans would solve a lot of all that, without even making the era longer.
However I must agree I very much enjoy playing this part. The loading times are small, it's so much nicer than playing the USA!


Agree, there is much less to improve than in 4. Mostly they need an access to the Mediterranean and I think that's OK.

For luxuries: there are the following Marble, Truffle, Wine, Crab + 2 natural wonders in Italy, Citrus and Silver close by. The blocking part as you said is tech. It's too soon to give the Romans the calendar. Giving them Trapping or Sailing would solve the issue.
For Punic wars: it seems obvious to search Sailing > Optics but I get it on 1st century also. Embarking units could be moved to sailing OR sailing could be given to the Romans on birth.
I saw improvements appearing on tiles, like lumber mills, that I guess Rhye designed to help with production.
Although I agree units are expensive and you generally need 2 units to conquer a city. Chopping only brings 20 when a legion costs 95. I miss the slavery mechanic from IV.

I guess just giving sailing to the Romans would solve a lot of all that, without even making the era longer.
However I must agree I very much enjoy playing this part. The loading times are small, it's so much nicer than playing the USA!


Agree, there is much less to improve than in 4. Mostly they need an access to the Mediterranean and I think that's OK.

Yes, give Rome Sailing, reduce the caravans and cargo ships cost, and make the era a little bit longer, so Rome would have time to build all, that he needs. And the game would be perfect.

 

[Rhye]

Please take a look at the most updated tech tree (v75). I reworked the later eras to make everything more compact.
Let me know if you see any problem.

 

[urban]

Whoa - I had completely given up hope something like this would ever happen. woo hoo! But is there any way to download it at this point? It looks like Catapult downloads have been suspended, is there nothing to download until the next version comes out? Ps, I tried to click on the "Forum thread of Rhye's Catapult" link on http://rhye.civfanatics.net/pages/civ5-menu.php, and it brings me to the RFC Civ IV forums, not this thread.