[BNW] Rhye's Catapult 2020-06-02

[MAHRana]

update from v71:
reprising of the loss of contact without embassies that was introduced in Civ4View attachment 594875
You can see here that Phoenicia does not appear in the diplolist if I don't approach with a unit.
I'm not sure about how to adapt this to city states though.

That was an awesome feature! Amazed to see your adding this amount of detail back

 

[PiR]

question: how much of the 4 culture panels are actually useful?
In particular that swapping works thing, is it really relevant or the game would go on normally if swapping were not possible?

Swapping works is very useful in normal games for a culture victory, it allows us to exchange a great work with another great work from another player, thanks to that we can generate more tourism by storing the great work according to the theming bonus rule of the building where they are stored.
Example:

In this example, my 2nd and 5th buildings are not themed, but getting them themed as displayed in the layover text would increase the tourism output.

--

If you disable the culture victory for the mod, the concept of tourism makes no sense, then the screen "Swapping great works" becomes useless and should be removed.
But then 3 of the 4 cultures screens become also useless, and even the first screen is not very useful.
This first screen could only be used to move great works to different cities, the only reason to do that could be to increase culture in some cities for faster border expansion? but it is a very limited use compared to the management of tourism.
The whole concept of great works of art becomes less useful without a culture victory. Maybe great works should be repurposed to something else, or totally removed. I'm not sure the AI ever was able to use them very well anyway.

update from v71:
reprising of the loss of contact without embassies that was introduced in Civ4

AWESOME
Although embassies are gained very quickly in Civ 5, as they are a prerequesite for open borders in Vanilla, and were much later in Civ 4 (iirc did not exist in Vanilla).

I'm not sure about how to adapt this to city states though.

I think the player/AI should remain in contact with them if they are friends or ally. If you lose contact with CS very quickly, investment in quests could become meaningless. For neutral CS, without units enabling contact, I would say contact can be lost.

 

[MAHRana]

Am easy plan foro tourism if you plan to cut the culture victory is to convert tourism output into gold/culture. It's probably more realistic anyway

 

[Rhye]

If you disable the culture victory for the mod, the concept of tourism makes no sense, then the screen "Swapping great works" becomes useless and should be removed.
But then 3 of the 4 cultures screens become also useless, and even the first screen is not very useful.
This first screen could only be used to move great works to different cities, the only reason to do that could be to increase culture in some cities for faster border expansion? but it is a very limited use compared to the management of tourism.
The whole concept of great works of art becomes less useful without a culture victory. Maybe great works should be repurposed to something else, or totally removed. I'm not sure the AI ever was able to use them very well anyway.

so, now the choice is either to leave it, which would be useful only for any civ such as France which could have a culture-related point victory, or remove all.
But does it really mean also removing tourism? if I remove tourism, it also means removing archeologists and antiquity sites? And I wonder what will that mean to museum, palace and Hermitage.

I want to aim for the easiest and cleanest solution. I wonder up to where it's easier to make a cut.

 

[Rhye]

AWESOME
Although embassies are gained very quickly in Civ 5, as they are a prerequesite for open borders in Vanilla, and were much later in Civ 4 (iirc did not exist in Vanilla).

I think the player/AI should remain in contact with them if they are friends or ally. If you lose contact with CS very quickly, investment in quests could become meaningless. For neutral CS, without units enabling contact, I would say contact can be lost.

Embassies are now moved to Code of Laws (which will come after Writing).
I just implemented the city states too.
I left contact only when allies, or when you reach Industrial era. In other cases you'd have to approach the city.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

No, no, no, no when it comes to Culture/Tourism

Tourism has an impact outside of the Victory, Dominant/Influential civs get small benefits for Espionage, Tech Brokering and I think few other things. It also affects Ideological Pressure.

 

[PiR]

OK then tourism should remain but probably also the "swapping great works" screen, which is imo an important tool to optimize tourism.
(although, sometimes it's tedious work to make a themed building and personnally, I don't find this particularly fun)

 

[Rhye]

other questions:
1- does AI swap works with AI?
2- do you ever use the 3rd and 4th tab of culture panel?

 

[dagriggstar]

Can't download since they are suspended at the moment

Looked at the map though and made a few notes

1) Kind of surprised the bottom of Africa isn't placed more southerly. Just to give Africa a bit more land.
2) I think you could get away with shrinking the Pacific Ocean a couple of tiles.
3) I am generally against adding Lake Eyre to Australia because it's a salt lake that under normal circumstances doesn't actually have water in it.

 

[PiR]

1- does AI swap works with AI?

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/quick-questions-and-answers.383126/page-301#post-16085672

2- do you ever use the 3rd and 4th tab of culture panel?

I have never used the 3rd one, probably useful to monitor competitors who might win with culture, and/or for late-game with ideologies?
The 4th is very useful to see the progress of tourism towards each competitor, specially when seeking a culture victory:

 

[the_roof]

sorry for the huge delay in the answer. Lately I even have to save time in answering posts in order to dedicate a little bit more on the mod itself...
point by point:
1- Done as you requested (the Rocky mountains were already modified since quite long ago).
2- The tech tree has changed already. But I don't see any relationship between atomic weapons and battleships. Also, since nukes requires the Manhattan project which requires time to build, it's better to enable it early on. I will later post screenshots of the new tech tree.
3- I see. It seems not possible to add technologies as prerequisite to some belief. That would solve the problem...
4- Interesting mod, but Suez, Bosphorus and (in recent versions of the map) Panama can hold a city, so why bother?
5- it's already that way, there's a much higher cost compared to the vanilla game proportional to the number of cities
6- 50% penalty is big but the example you made sounds realistic, actually
7- rivers are at the border between hexes. I don't know whether a movement bonus could be applied that way
8- they are, they are.
By the way, I sent you a private message quite some time ago. I guess you didn't see it.

4. The problem, is that ai never builds Panama, or Kielshtadt. And in civ v your units can't enter foreign cities, so if I build Panama, only I can use it. It can be something like a canal resource, which can be improved with a canal improvement after the steam power, for example. And it can give gold for every foreign unit or cargo ship passing through the canal.
6. It's not realistic. For example, the whole Estern Europe was buying iron from Sweden in XV-XVII century, and Sweden was fighting with the whole Eastern Europe those times. And Japan attacked Pearl Harbor after the oil Embargo, which they can't do in your mod.
You can't build new units with the recourses shortages - and that's realistic enough.

 

[lp_04]

Dear Rhye, Dear all,
few ideas for the problems at hand:

Victory

The idea of "role playing victory" is extremely cool, eventually much more organic and "adaptable". Nevertheless, there are some issues that could be clarified in order to propose tangible ideas on how civs may get victory: will civs gain victory points 1) by having control of cities, population, buildings, great works, holy cities, wonders, etc., much like the VP system on Civ V works, being them as interchangeable they are (if you loose a city and its wonders, you loose the points, even if you build the wonders, right?) or 2) by triggering in-game actions that award permanent VP (such as the Aztec Kills Unit idea you posted few days ago), or 3) by both having control and triggering VP awarding actions, i.e., temporary and permanent VP?

This may seem a small issue, but it is important for both in-game balance and concept. For instance, if we are dealing with situation 1, Egypt could have increased VP for controling wonders, but then they would loose that VP once some wonders are conquered (and so their "legacy" on world history would be lost, which should not be IMHO), or they would gain a major ammount of VP just by conquering another civ's wonder-filled city (which is not very accurate historically and would probably make Egypt try to conquer all the neighbouring wonderous cities, which would be fun in some circumstantial cases but would be strange if it happens constantly). Conversely, if we are dealing with situation 2, Egypt could get permanent VP for building wonders, which would make that civ invest on their core instead of overexpanding towards mesopotamia or southern europe, and in the case that Egypt looses some of those wonders, they would still be rewarded for the "role" they have played in world history.

To conclude, I think that base temporary VP system from Civ V should be kept (but reworked) and should sit on top of permanently awarded VPs derived from in-game single actions and based on the "historic role" of the civilization.

Tourism

Following the vibe of new RFC mod, I came back to civ V and played culture victory Austria to understand in first hand the impact of tourism. As said before, tourism should be kept as a part of the game. Not just because it is fun, but mostly because it is fundamental to create the late-game modern era ideology struggle eminent world war scenario that we all enjoy. Furthermore, if tourism is nerfed or removed, there must be a fundamental rework on the culture system of the game, otherwise the aspects of the game that focus on this (like 1/2 of the world wonders, great artists of all sorts, even the will to trade with other civs or to engage on religious conflict) would not be very attractive. I may be biased, but they made an interesting culture victory system in BNW, one that does not focus on converting production into world wonders (which is super boring and, effectively, risky), but rewards the player who actively seeks to collect and organize artifacts/artworks to create a glimpse of the history of the world you are playing with.

I think you could try to keep the culture/tourism system as it is. This culture system is what makes the difference between a blank 4x generic game and an efective "civilization" game. Its a matter of experience more than everything. Its being able to be in 1950 and look at (and interact with) that beautiful renaissance painting you created in Florence some 500 years ago and remember that you got all hyped abut it because it meant you could finally optimize your Sistine chapel; or being able to send an archaeologist to South America, find an "Incan Sword" dated to 1450AD and say "wow, the Inca had just expanded to Colombia when I found and destroyed them; poor guys, they had no chance...". If this adds a new dimension to the historical gameplay environment of civ V, I could only assume that it would provide an even deeper and more tangible feeling on the historical simulator that is RFC.

So, if Tourism provides a completely new way of playing the game, alongside a real feeling of "historical perception", how can it be implemented on RFC given that the very ground reason to go tourism is to have a victory condition that the mod does not consider? Well, simply reward players based on their influence over other players. You can give temporary VP to each civ based on the level of influence over other civs. Is it possible? It would basically merge the culture victory system of BNW into the VP victory system of RFC. It would make sense since you also record VP for controlling cities, tiles, population, wonders, etc. Right?

 

[the_roof]

Dear Rhye, Dear all,
few ideas for the problems at hand:

Victory

The idea of "role playing victory" is extremely cool, eventually much more organic and "adaptable". Nevertheless, there are some issues that could be clarified in order to propose tangible ideas on how civs may get victory: will civs gain victory points 1) by having control of cities, population, buildings, great works, holy cities, wonders, etc., much like the VP system on Civ V works, being them as interchangeable they are (if you loose a city and its wonders, you loose the points, even if you build the wonders, right?) or 2) by triggering in-game actions that award permanent VP (such as the Aztec Kills Unit idea you posted few days ago), or 3) by both having control and triggering VP awarding actions, i.e., temporary and permanent VP?

This may seem a small issue, but it is important for both in-game balance and concept. For instance, if we are dealing with situation 1, Egypt could have increased VP for controling wonders, but then they would loose that VP once some wonders are conquered (and so their "legacy" on world history would be lost, which should not be IMHO), or they would gain a major ammount of VP just by conquering another civ's wonder-filled city (which is not very accurate historically and would probably make Egypt try to conquer all the neighbouring wonderous cities, which would be fun in some circumstantial cases but would be strange if it happens constantly). Conversely, if we are dealing with situation 2, Egypt could get permanent VP for building wonders, which would make that civ invest on their core instead of overexpanding towards mesopotamia or southern europe, and in the case that Egypt looses some of those wonders, they would still be rewarded for the "role" they have played in world history.

To conclude, I think that base temporary VP system from Civ V should be kept (but reworked) and should sit on top of permanently awarded VPs derived from in-game single actions and based on the "historic role" of the civilization.

Tourism

Following the vibe of new RFC mod, I came back to civ V and played culture victory Austria to understand in first hand the impact of tourism. As said before, tourism should be kept as a part of the game. Not just because it is fun, but mostly because it is fundamental to create the late-game modern era ideology struggle eminent world war scenario that we all enjoy. Furthermore, if tourism is nerfed or removed, there must be a fundamental rework on the culture system of the game, otherwise the aspects of the game that focus on this (like 1/2 of the world wonders, great artists of all sorts, even the will to trade with other civs or to engage on religious conflict) would not be very attractive. I may be biased, but they made an interesting culture victory system in BNW, one that does not focus on converting production into world wonders (which is super boring and, effectively, risky), but rewards the player who actively seeks to collect and organize artifacts/artworks to create a glimpse of the history of the world you are playing with.

I think you could try to keep the culture/tourism system as it is. This culture system is what makes the difference between a blank 4x generic game and an efective "civilization" game. Its a matter of experience more than everything. Its being able to be in 1950 and look at (and interact with) that beautiful renaissance painting you created in Florence some 500 years ago and remember that you got all hyped abut it because it meant you could finally optimize your Sistine chapel; or being able to send an archaeologist to South America, find an "Incan Sword" dated to 1450AD and say "wow, the Inca had just expanded to Colombia when I found and destroyed them; poor guys, they had no chance...". If this adds a new dimension to the historical gameplay environment of civ V, I could only assume that it would provide an even deeper and more tangible feeling on the historical simulator that is RFC.

So, if Tourism provides a completely new way of playing the game, alongside a real feeling of "historical perception", how can it be implemented on RFC given that the very ground reason to go tourism is to have a victory condition that the mod does not consider? Well, simply reward players based on their influence over other players. You can give temporary VP to each civ based on the level of influence over other civs. Is it possible? It would basically merge the culture victory system of BNW into the VP victory system of RFC. It would make sense since you also record VP for controlling cities, tiles, population, wonders, etc. Right?

The problem could be with late civs. I started game as America, and I chose Freedom to build the Statue of Liberty, but i've got a huge unhappiness, becouse european civs had chosen Order, and they had much more tourism, than me. This should be fixed somehow, may be by giving greate works of arts to new civs.

 

[PiR]

4. The problem, is that ai never builds Panama, or Kielshtadt. And in civ v your units can't enter foreign cities, so if I build Panama, only I can use it. It can be something like a canal resource, which can be improved with a canal improvement after the steam power, for example. And it can give gold for every foreign unit or cargo ship passing through the canal.

Yes, it's a shame we cannot cross through allies' cities.

6. It's not realistic. For example, the whole Estern Europe was buying iron from Sweden in XV-XVII century, and Sweden was fighting with the whole Eastern Europe those times. And Japan attacked Pearl Harbor after the oil Embargo, which they can't do in your mod.
You can't build new units with the recourses shortages - and that's realistic enough.

A compromise could be:
- units cannot heal without the resource
- units don't need iron/horses/aluminium to attack at full strength
For coal, oil, uranium, I would say you need it to attack at full strength from a roleplay perspective, from a gameplay perspective idk.


Very good points from lp_04 !

The problem could be with late civs. I started game as America, and I chose Freedom to build the Statue of Liberty, but i've got a huge unhappiness, becouse european civs had chosen Order, and they had much more tourism, than me. This should be fixed somehow, may be by giving greate works of arts to new civs.

When I tried America (in the mod), there were a bit of everything in the world, not everyone on the same Ideology.
I think you just need culture to defend against tourism, not necessarily to develop your own tourism? In that case I think Rhye gives culture boosts for late civs, that would help. Specially as each city founded comes with many buildings, so border expansion is faster, etc.
Also a new civ should be able to quickly generate great persons (as the cities can start with 7 pop for example), because the thresholds should be low.

 

[lp_04]

Hi all. I'm trying to contribute a bit for the Civ’s victory path ideas. I also searched a bit for mods that can add more flavourful and coherent gameplay on RFC. I don’t know if the ideas proposed are executable or not, maybe it is difficult to mod some of the victory conditions and maybe some modders will not want to lend their creations to this mod. Still, I hope you find this exercise useful.

For those interested, there are several lists of modded civilizations, some of them much more rounded (and beautiful) than the Firaxi’s creations:

Spoiler :

https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Leaders


https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/?id=90186873


https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/new-civilisations-index.533772/


https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/more-civilisations.494241/


https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/tomatekhs-new-civilizations.472751/


https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ls-civilization-set.499014/

Here follow some ideas for the Victory Conditions and some possible changes to the uniques, based on some famous modds:
(I tried to consider 1UU and 1UB per Civ, instead of having civs with 2UU. I also tried to include some flavour from mods, such as the egyptian Mastaba, or some elements present in BNW that will be out of RFC, such as the Royal Library. The Ideas do not provide any values, they simply say "Gain VP whenever somehting happens". Some events will give more VP for being difficult to do and some others will provide smaller ammounts of VPs for being recurrent and quite easy. In the end it is a matter of balancing, and it must only be done once the scoring method is reevaluated for the mod, I think).

Spoiler :

Egypt: Gain VP when entering a golden age or building a wonder for each population controlled on the Nile Valley.
Pouakai's team Mastaba (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=522244054) could replace the Burial Tomb.

Babylonia: Gain VP when researching a technology that no other civilization has researched yet.
The Royal Library (Assyria) could replace the Babylonian Walls.

India: Gain VP when an independent or indian city on the indian subcontinent grows for each religion present in that city.
Pouakai's team Mandir (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/more-civilisations.494241/#IndiaOP) could replace the Mughal Fort.

China: Gain VP when settling or first conquering a city in mainland Asia for each started and finished social policy branch.
Tomatekh's Xia has an interesting UA: https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Xia_(Yu)

Greece: Gain VP when consuming a great person for each world wonder in the empire.
Pouakai's team Odeon (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=718535427) could replace the Companion Cavalry.

Persia: Gain VP when conquering a city and aditional VP if the city is either a capital or occupied.

Carthage: Gain VP when completing a trade route starting from a city on the Mediterranean, Morocco or Iberian Peninsula.
The mod of Dido from JFD's team could be used instead of the G&K Carthague (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=264154749).

Rome: Gain VP when first connecting a new city to the capital.
JFD's team Thermae (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1552515471) could replace the Balista.

Japan: Gain Victory Points when settling or first conquering a city on the Pacific Ocean.
Senshi’s team Komekaisho (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Japan_(Tokugawa_Yoshimune) could replace the Zero.

Korea: Gain VP when a Great Person is born for each population point in Korea and Manchuria.
Senshidenshi’s team Sewon (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Korea_(Seonjo) could be used instead of the Turtle Ship

Huns: Gain VP by razing cities.

Byzantine: Gain VP by killing an enemy for each byzantine city within three tiles and additional points if that city follows the Byzantine state religion.
JFD's team Stoudion (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=817136743) could replace the Dromon.

Norse (Denmark?): Gain VP by pillaging improvements and sinking ships for each faith point generated in Scandinavia.
JFD’s team Runestone (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/The_Swedes_(Erik) could replace the Ski Infantry.

Arabia: Gain VP when converting a city to the founded religion for the first time for each arabian city following that religion and additional points if the city had a major religion before.

France: Gain VP when acquiring an Artifact or Great Works of Art, Music and Writing, and additional Victory points if the French have no previous pieces of that type from that era or civilization.

Spain: Gain VP when they convert a city outside Europe to the state religion for the first time.
JFD’s team Philip II (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Spain_(Philip_II)) could replace the base game Spain.

England: Gain VP when settling or first conquering a city outside Europe for each City controlled within 10 tiles.
JFD’s team Victoria (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Britain_(Victoria)) could be used instead of the BNW Elizabeth. The First-Rate UU could be replaced by JFD’s team Playhouse (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/England_(Henry_VIII)).

Germany: Gain VP when conquering a city and additional points if that city is an original capital.
TarcisioCM’s Wilhelm II ability (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Germany_(Wilhelm_II) could be used instead of the BNW ability.

Russia: Gain VP when first settling a city in Europe or Asia for each faith and culture point generated in the capital.

Netherlands: Gain VP when first adding a new luxury resource to their network and when improving luxury resources.

Portugal: Gain VP by settling or building feitorias outside Europe.

Mongolia: Gain VP by conquering cities for each previously conquered city of the same civilization.
Lungora’s team Ger (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Leaders#Mongolia) could replace the Khan UU.

Inca: Gain VP by building improvements and roads adjacent to mountain tiles.
Leugi’s team Chaska Chuqui (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Inca_(Tupac_Yupanqui)) could replace the Slinger UU (the slinger comes too early for in-game presence of the Inca).

Aztec: Gain VP when they kill and enemy unit, and additional points if that unit belong to a civilization on a more advanced era.

Siam: Gain VP when a city controlled in the Indochinese subcontinent grows for each city controlled in the Indochinese subcontinent.
Maybe this could be replaced by Sukritact’s team Khmer Civilization (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/The_Khmer_(Jayavarman_VII)).

Turkey: Gain VP when conquering a city from another civilization and additional points if that city does not follow the Turkish state religion.
Could maybe use JFD’s team Suleiman with the Hammam and the altered UA (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/The_Turks_(Mehmed_II).

Austria: Gain VP when a Great Person is born for each city gained by Diplomatic Marriage
TarcisioCM’s concert hall (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Austria-Hungary_(Franz_Joseph)) could replace the Coffee House; still, it could increase GPP like the coffee house. It’s just much more flavourful.

America: Gain VP when first acquiring a tile or population point in North America for each social policy adopted.
JFD’s Assembly Plant (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/America_(Franklin_Roosevelt)) could replace the Minuteman.

Brazil: Gain Victory Points when first acquiring a tile or population point in South America for each great person previously earned.
JFD’s team Independence dragoon (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Brazil_(Pedro_I)) could replace the Pracinha.

Considering other african civs not included on the RFC civ list (in case they get included later):

Spoiler :

Ethiopia: Gain Victory points when purchasing units or buildings with faith on cities following the state religion.

Mali: Gain Victory points when purchasing buildings with gold on cities following the state religion
Last Sword's team Mali (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Mali_(Mansa_Musa)_(LastSword)) could replace the Firaxis Songhai.

Finally, here are some thoughts on how the civ's abilities may change to become more proactive and historically coherent, and how the civ could be seen in the "role play" perspective that Rhye talked about (instead of having civs gain base boost for something - like egypt UA - we can have civs increase their possibility of getting something by investing in something else - let's say, egypt gains more production for farms on flood plains or somehting):

Spoiler :

Egypt could get more production (and Gold after sailing?) form farms on the Nile (or flood plains). The egyptian gampelay could focus on controlling the Nile, improving the tiles arround the river, and then having an easier way to generate happiness and production (for wonders), which will be converted intro VP.

Babylon could gain growth bonuses on the capital when a city is conquerewd and for each occupied city, as well as a free GP when the capital reaches every X population (5? 10?). The Babylonian player could begin in the middle of a bunch of city-states (as in RFC for Civ IV) and conquer them to increase the population in their capital, which would provide more sience (and therefore more VPs from their scoring system) and great people to either increase the VPs (Great Scientists) or to fill the Royal Libraries with Great Works (Great Writter - reflecting the code of laws and writting/archive infrastructure of ancient mesopotamia).

India could focus on having large cities and in having multiple religions on their subcontinent. They will want to protect the subcontinent from foreign invaders (Ancient barbarians, Persia, medieval Barbarians, Mongolia, European Colonists...) in order to score more points but their UA will not allow them to colonize all of India soon , so they will have to work with the city states that spawn at southern india arround 300BC (Chola/Tamil...).

China could try to expand as much as possible. Maybe their UA could come from the "dynastic cycle" UA presented before (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Xia_(Yu)) and they face a civil war (not full collapse) when a new dynasty is founded, so they could not expand as fast as they would want. Very flavourful UA IMHO.

Greece will try to build wonders but could also focus on expanding to collect the wonders form the ancient middle eastern civilizations/egypt (reflecting the macedonain expansion and helenization process) and they want to generate GP (reflecting the greek classicalgolden age; much like Civ IV RFC).

Persia will want to conquer all of the middle east and India. They could have an ability saying that cities do not enter an occupation phase, as if they have a free hidden courthouse (to reflect the "liberator" rethoric used by achaemenid kings). If the courthouse is free, the Satrsaps court could still provide gold and maybe some happiness but replace the courthouse instead (and could be built everywhere). Another part of the ability could say that conquering a city reduces the next Golden Age threshold.

Carthage is extremely well presented on JFD's mod exposed before. They will want to control all the mediterranean sea with their large number of water tiles and unique naval units. This would allow them to have protected trade routes to easily generate VPs.

Rome could have a different UA, one that provides population in nearby cities when a barbarian encampent is destoryed (reflecting the expansion towards western and central europe), which will not penalize the population cost of buillding settlers, and cities connected to the capital could have reduced construction costs for buldings in the capital (this will make the player want to create a road infrastructure ASAP). They can still conquer cities arround the mediterranean civs to have more cities connected to the capital.

Japan will want to expand outside the starting core islands but they will face some instability and this process will be slow. The altered UB will help them mantain and develop a profitable empire overseas.

Korea will want to grow their cities fast and generate GP (especialy great scientists) as fast as possible. They will have to "turtle" on the Korean Peninsula (which they will unify buy conquering other CS in there) since the neighbours - Japan, China and Mongolia - are extremely agressive.

Huns will want to destroy the world. Maybe they could not get cities but get reduced maintenance for units (since they have no cities, they generate little gold, except from pillaging), have Horse Archers reduce the strenght and damage of nearby enenmy cities (Hunnic Terror; helps conquering and razing cities faster), have science and culture boost from conquering and/or pillaging (as they begin with no cities - they will want some boost on civ development). Aditionally the battering ram (ugly unit) could be replaced by a "Nomad Pastoralist" settler replacement which does not found cities but moves very fast, has a chance of spawning an up to date mounted unit on a pasture reosurce tile nearby and nearby units heal twice as fast. The Huns could begin in central Asia and have a choice to either invade the East (China), the South (Persia, India, Babylon) or the West (Rome, Geence, Byzantine). This could reflect the several nomad-pastoralist migrations of central asia during the ancient era (scythia, Xiongnu, etc.). Eventually the hunnic player will want to find a core to settle and play a still agressive but more regular game later on.

Byzantine focus on defending their land, which makes sence since they are at the centre of multiple potentially agressive and strong civilizations. Still, they can also expand a bit and declare some wars to fuel their VP condition. The faith generaiton and the aditional belief of the UA will help on that.

The Norse (well, Denmark?) focus on rading the civilizations of the west. This is more effetive the more faith they generated, for which the UB helps (this is akin to the Norse gamplay feeling of Crusader Kings Series). Perhaps they could also gain faith from pillage/conquest. Eventually the boost on faith may help them generate Great people later in the game (reflecting the developments of post-medieval sweden).

Arabia could focus on expanding their religion, and it will be even better if that city is within the empire (as in RFC for Civ IV). Perhaps their UB is not useful for this. This Mazar (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/The_Fatimids_(al-Mu'izz)) may be a nice addition to the civ, more in-tune with the expand faith gameplay (abassid golden age, house of wisdom and all that jazz). They will expand fast and wide, convert everything, and then start to focus on science, cutlure, gold generation, making them the most advanced civ of the world.

France will focus on having great works (there are plenty of innovative artistic and political moment son french history, from Charlemagne, to Louis XI (?), Louis XIV and Napoleon). They will be the proeminent works of art/artifacts civ. They will want to generate GP in their homeland, and to build plenty of wonders, but they may also want to expand to other continents to collect more artifacts.

Spain will want to colonize America (or any other continent) and to convert everybody to their major religion. It just makes sense... They should have a boost on faith, for which the altered UB helps. In fact, all the civ could be replaced by this: https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Spain_(Philip_II). The Firaxis UA is a bit crappy.

England will want to create an overseas empire. They need some source of control and some aditional source of culture, otherwise they get far behind on the social policy scene. Thius is why they could use the JFD's Victoria (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Britain_(Victoria)).

Germany will want to conquer all of Europe, but they will have a difficult life earlyer in the game. The Firaxis UA of Germany does not fit RFC I think. The idea of this mod is better: https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Germany_(Wilhelm_II).

Russia will build a strong core and develop their capital while expanding as much as possible intro Siberia. It fits with their UB and UU. Perhaps the russian UA could be changed, maybe to provide a better generation of culture and faith in the capital? This JFD's and Jeanboruta's Peter is very interesting and historically flavourful (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Russia_(Peter_I)). Somehting related to enemies taking damage on their land (as in RFC for Civ IV) would be very nice to see as well.

Netherlands focus on building colonies on located luxury-resource filled areas; their UU will protect them against other eruropean superpowers trying to control those resources. Everything just seems to fit well with the Firaxis build.

Portugal will want to build feitorias everywhere and settle some cities to be able to contuct an intercontinental trade network early on, but they will not have the manpower to absolutely colonize everything (unlike spain or england). Maybe the portuguese original UA is too powerful. They could have this ability instead (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Portugal_(João_II)). This would also make the portuguese player recieve bonuses for proactively expolring the map.

Mongolia will want to completely destroy opponent civilizations. They can go for China, India, Korea, Persia and even Arabia and Russia. They must be a threat for everybody, something that completely changes the political scope of the world. The 2UU system of firaxis may be useful for them. Still, I would personally prefer to see a UB as well... Their UA is quite strange and I'm not sure it will fit the gampelay. These UAs may be more in-tune with a devastating Mongolia: https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Yuan_(Kublai_Khan); https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Khamug-Mongol_(Jamukha); https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Ilkhanate_(Ghazan). Personally I like the first one quite a lot. It will allow for Mongolia to focus on unit production and war while still keeping the pace on the tech three. It also makes city conquest easier! Even the UB of that mod may be useful for reducing the absurd penalties of conquests.

Inca focus on developing the land into a profitable and extensive empire. This is a small drift from the normal "let's defend against spain" concept, but the aztecs already revolve on that concept and, in fact, incan history is much older and much more focused on what happened before Spain came in. I think it makes sense to drift the "normal" role played by the inca and have them build the south american powerhouse early on.

Azetc want to not be conquered by Spain... But they can still feed their VP by destroying all barbarians/natives on central america and western USA. It would be nice to have the Jaguar replace a later era unit so they are available when the Spanish come.

Siam will want to control and grow their cities on indochina. I really like the Khmer mod presented by Sukritact (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/The_Khmer_(Jayavarman_VII)), and having the Khmer instead of Siam will make the gampleay longer and more interesting IMHO. This Khmer mod will also make the civ want to produce wonders and convert the lagre population into specialists, which is an interesting idea and much in-tune with the Khmer concept on RFC for Civ IV.

Turkey focus on, well, creating the Ottoman Empire. The Firaxis uniques are really bad... That's why it makes more sense to have somehting like this Suleiman instead: https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/The_Turks_(Mehmed_II). They will begin in the middle of a ridiculous ammount of civilizations; they can only expand by conquest, and so they will gain cities of very different religions, but this is helpfull with the referred UA. To keep the empire together, they will have to create a lot of puppets, for which this mod's ability is also interesting. The Hammam will help their cities grow, which will eventually lead to a good development of science and cutlure.

Austria is all about "eating" the european city states. The only change I would propose is to replace the coffe house by this building, for flavour (https://civilization-v-customisation.fandom.com/wiki/Austria-Hungary_(Franz_Joseph)), while keeping it provide increased GPP. Austria will be a large culture focus, probably pacific and defensive; if they survive Turkey, Germany and Russia (?) and are able to eat many CS, they are in a good position to win the game.

America and Brazil work very simmilarly. They will both want to repel the european colonists from their home continents while also developing their own philosophy, science and aesthetics, as a real nation conceptualized during the enlightenment should do... Here they are more like the Aztec, Inca and Ethiopia of RFC for Civ IV. This will make very interesting inependence wars! Afterwards, America will be a production powerhouse and Brazil will be more focused on culture and GPeople generartion, but they can be rather simmilar in their original purpose.

 

[Rhye]

lp_04
yes you're mentioning several critical points.

The victory points are indeed counted as both a continuously updated value (such as the number of controlled water tiles - nice idea for Phoenicia) and as triggered events (wonder built).
Some unique abilities like the German need to be reworked out.
No need to worry about the Huns, they are already playing a different game, a no-city game, so adding points for victory is very easy.
I am intrigued by the idea of putting one civ against others in terms of victory. For example, Byzantium could get points by killing Huns while Huns also get points by killing Byzantines (and not only them). The 5 colonising European civs could compete in having the highest total number of extra-Eu colonies.
Regarding the issue of turism, I'm thinking that it shouldn't be touched. But maybe the great works panel could be enabled for France only, and assign them victory point for great works. Perhaps England too, as they are indeed the world champions of stolen artifacts around the globe.
As for Spain, no need to brainstorm either, I've got a nice one:

Spoiler :

Find El Dorado!

 

[the_roof]

Played Egypt, Greece and Rome. Had tons of fun, thank you.
1. A map suggestions: you don't need to weaken Egypt and Babylon any more. I removed those marshes from Nile Delta, placed flood plants on the tile with marble, and added a salt resource in the desert in Egypt. In Babylon I placed marble and stone resources on flood plants tiles, like in your Civ IV mode. And I also placed wheat resources on flood plants tiles, one in Egypt and one in Babylon. And nothing terrible happened - they were just a mediocre civs.
2. I would give Greece extra Mining technology on start, and Rome - sailing or trapping, so they could improve their luxuries. Otherwise, a player could do nothing, but wait for the technologies to improve luxuries.
3. Could you rescale cultural requirements for adopting new policies? Playing Greece, I closed Liberty, Honour, Patronage and Tradition before I entered Medieval era. That's not healthy. By the way, Greece unique power rarely works in the mod, so that bug could be a very strong unique power for them.
4. And is it possible to make Ancient and classical eras a little bit longer? It all ends so soon.
5. Could I ask you again to change some ancient Wonders? I've been thinking: Pyramids bonus would be better to move to the Temple of Artemis, ToA bonus should be moved to the Masoleum, and Masoleum's - to the Pyramids. The Pyramids should be unlocked by the Tradition policy, and ToA and the Masoleum - by Liberty. It would be nice to build the Halicarnassus Masoleum in Halicarnassus, instead of the Pyramids.
6. Unique units. Greece's Companion cavalry is a very strong unit, but it worthless now, because of the increased cost of technologies. Maybe you will replace them with some kind of a unique building? Like Acropolis or Agora? Same with Romans - they don't need the Ballista unit. I thought, you could give Rome unique barracks with a happiness bonus. And the Carthaginian unique unit - quinquereme - makes them way too overpowered, ruining the balance. Maybe it also could be replaced by a unique building, which could replace lighthouses? In that case, just give Phoenicians more technologies on start, so they could get their elephants on time. Same with Vikings, their second unique unit is also worthless.
7. Also, now, when you rescaled the game speed, it would be nice to find more gold sources in ancient and classical eras. Now I'm running out of gold too fast. Maybe you will increase income from trade routes, or city connections? Also, would it be possible to rescale the stability, because in Ancient era +10 gold per turn - it's a very high income. But the stability system sees you as a bankrupt, so I played my games always with an unstable or collapsing empire. And caravans and cargo ships in ancient and classical cost more, than a wonder, and it's very easy to lose one. Could you decrease their cost?
8. By the way, I had tons of fun, when my Aleksandr empire collapsed. It just was too easy, because my army stayed loyal. Could you make some units to flip to rebels?
9. Huns again raised my Black sea cities. I think, the problem is when Huns unit appears on a tile, where there is a city, so they automatically capture the city, and raise it.
10. I see, you increased the strategic resources quantity, that's very nice. Just iron and horses resources don't have to give that much, six or seven per source is enough, you don't build 15 horsemen in classical era. Same with uranium, 2 or 4 is enough, don't give Creasy Gandhy too many nukes. But leave other as they are, they are now perfect. And don't forget about silver in Saxony, it's important - Germany is enough hard to play. And don't forget about wheat on hills without water - on a tile, near Sinop. It cannot be improved.
Otherwise, mod is close to be perfect. Thank you.

 

[dagriggstar]

This might seem kind of strange, but is there like an "approximate timeline" of events you expect to happen during a "typical" game ? I ask this, because I feel like it would change what abilities to suggest for each faction and what their victories should be.

For example if we take France, do you expect the Napoleonic wars to happen ? If the answer is yes, then I'd suggest totally redesigning France and would suggest some Victory Point/s relating to that, if no then their existing design is probably fine.

As a bit of a side thing, I used to find it strange how Aztecs/Inca basically don't interact with anything for a long period of time. I don't know if you can make Mexico big enough, but was thinking maybe including Tzintzuntzan as an independent to spawn alongside the Aztecs. Assuming the Aztecs retain some benefit from a killing units mechanic, then as the player you have a choice of whether to conquer Tzintzuntzan or farm their units.

 

[the_roof]

A compromise could be:
- units cannot heal without the resource
- units don't need iron/horses/aluminium to attack at full strength
For coal, oil, uranium, I would say you need it to attack at full strength from a roleplay perspective, from a gameplay perspective idk.

You don't need a compromise. It's easy to lose a unit in Civ V, so the inability to build new units is already a penalty.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[the_roof]

Almost forgotten, Caucasus region is not a desert. You placed desert tiles right where Tbilisi and Baku cities must be. And, the region between Black sea and Caspian sea is not a desert at all, in fact it has the most fertile lands in Russia. And also there is no desert in Ural river region, Northern and middle Kazakhstan. And in Kazakhstan we've got oil in the desert on the Caspian coast, uranium and aluminium in the Northern Kazakhstan, and coal in the middle, in Karaganda city. And the biggest part of Kazakhstan is not a desert, it's a steppe. Aralkym - the desert in the place, where the Aral lake was, is the resent technogenic catastrophe, before it lands around Aral were also quite fertile.