Eddiit
King of Nothing
What you can do is set the guerilla as a second UU for only weak civs and make it a relativeley early tech for them (early industrial).
Rhye's of Civilization - the fastest loading mod Expanded
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Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
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Something I noticed in Europe that may need to be changed.
It seems that the only two deposits of iron in western europe are right next to one another. Whoever gets a city on the Ruhr valley immediately uses it to wipe out all opponents. I did this myself as Germany; there is simply nothing the French or Dutch can do, and when they fall the Germans have enough might to crush the rest of Europe as well. The French have done the same thing, and it is even possible that the Dutch could do it (although less likely, as they are not really in an optimal position for mass production of swordsmen).
Although this is true to life, it utterly unbalances the game and destroys an integral sense of realism, in that Germany and France are supposed to be basically on par. Perhaps another source of iron should be placed somewhere in the area, near both of the two major civs (France and Germany). I am not overly concerned about the Dutch being overrun, as most of the time they manage to use diplomacy to keep themselves safe (in the games I have seen, although not one where I played a major European power).
It seems that the only two deposits of iron in western europe are right next to one another. Whoever gets a city on the Ruhr valley immediately uses it to wipe out all opponents. I did this myself as Germany; there is simply nothing the French or Dutch can do, and when they fall the Germans have enough might to crush the rest of Europe as well. The French have done the same thing, and it is even possible that the Dutch could do it (although less likely, as they are not really in an optimal position for mass production of swordsmen).
Although this is true to life, it utterly unbalances the game and destroys an integral sense of realism, in that Germany and France are supposed to be basically on par. Perhaps another source of iron should be placed somewhere in the area, near both of the two major civs (France and Germany). I am not overly concerned about the Dutch being overrun, as most of the time they manage to use diplomacy to keep themselves safe (in the games I have seen, although not one where I played a major European power).
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
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Also, by making deserts and tundra impassable, I got excellent results so far! It forces a lot of historically naval civs (like Carthage and the Arabians, who as a culture did have a major naval presence in the Indian ocean before the arrival of Europeans) to actually build boats and start settling. Also makes the coast of Africa far more interesting to the computer, as the computer is forced to sail along it to create basically trading posts. Would it be a good idea to make it impossible to settle within the congo area, and make it so that you could only move units along the coast (would allow/force more boat usage in colonizing more territory, thus giving the navy a yet more realistic role in the development of colonies).
It also kept the Europeans out of asia proper!!! I closed the Urals (except for one passage, where I put a barbarian tribe with a barricade), which easily protected itself until the Euros started moving in with Knights and Medieval Infantry. Russia was able to plop a city right in the middle of it, so it got to settle all of that area left alone by Mongolia.
Suggestions:
-Locked wars between groups that were traditionally enemies (China vs Mongolia, Americans vs Iroquois, Carthage vs Rome?, Greece vs Persia?) in order to create more early violence and to regain the feeling of raiders and random senseless violence. (have not tested or tried)
-Make tundra and deserts impassable to wheeled
-Make scouts wheeled (but leave them their two movement)
-Add build often naval to more civs (Korea, Carthage, Arabia) so that they will be better able to build colonial empires
I REALLY like Edd's idea about making the Guerrilla the 2nd UU of the crip civs. To make certain that they are not used by humans, you could make them non-playable civs.
Hall meeting!
It also kept the Europeans out of asia proper!!! I closed the Urals (except for one passage, where I put a barbarian tribe with a barricade), which easily protected itself until the Euros started moving in with Knights and Medieval Infantry. Russia was able to plop a city right in the middle of it, so it got to settle all of that area left alone by Mongolia.
Suggestions:
-Locked wars between groups that were traditionally enemies (China vs Mongolia, Americans vs Iroquois, Carthage vs Rome?, Greece vs Persia?) in order to create more early violence and to regain the feeling of raiders and random senseless violence. (have not tested or tried)
-Make tundra and deserts impassable to wheeled
-Make scouts wheeled (but leave them their two movement)
-Add build often naval to more civs (Korea, Carthage, Arabia) so that they will be better able to build colonial empires
I REALLY like Edd's idea about making the Guerrilla the 2nd UU of the crip civs. To make certain that they are not used by humans, you could make them non-playable civs.
Hall meeting!
Eddiit
King of Nothing
Wheeled scouts is a good idea....I dont like locked wars, I prefer a little randomness....the whole tundra desert idea, I dunno I really have no opinion,if it works go for it...I agree with carthage and korea having build often for navy, not so much arabia,they never really spread...I like my guerilla idea but I dont like making civs unplayable, adding the guerilla to crippled civs is just something we'll have to hope doesnt go out of control with human players, I dont think it will, the crippled civs really do suck.
About the iron thing, that's placed where it is. I'll see if I spot another location in the atlas; if I find it, I'll add it, but I can't go inventing new iron locations
Update:
Changes done:
- Scouts and explorers now can be airlifted but can't pillage
- Scouts now have movement 1 to make globalization slower. They still aren't wheeled, so they can cross mountains, jungles and marshes
- Shifta, Keshik, War Chariot and Ansar Warrior now ignore desert movement cost
- Modern paratroopers no longer need rubber
- Riflemen now require saltpeter
- Updated civilopedia and corrected some entries
- Reduced 'build never' penalties for some crippled civs
- Ocean movement costs 2; all units ignore its cost except galley and dromon
- Galley and dromon don't ignore sea movement cost anymore (otherwise they could cross the Bering strait)
- Some new terrain graphics: lighter rivers and less grey mountains
- Currency cost decreased to 14; Monarchy cost decreased to 12
- Radio removed to follow Conquests last patch changes; updated civilopedia
- SS Engine and Exterior casing cost 48
- Tuned max eruption period (24000 years)
- Tuned plagues earliest start and grace period
- "No barbarians" activity: camps shouldn't appear now, but it seems that there's a bug in Conquests, because they're still appearing.
- Redistributed barbarian camps in South America. Now there are less around but in strategical position, in order to stop Incan expansion
- Removed some camps in North America, Brazil, Vietnam, Mongolia, Australia, Afghanistan and Congo
- Removed jungle tiles that obstructed passage in India, Congo, Peru and central America
- Moved some barbarian camps towards southern passage through Uralis
- Blocked northern passages through Uralis
- Removed a plateau tile that obstructed passage in Mongolia
- Blocked Ethiopian passage to the lakes
- Tuned Carthaginian, Russian, Japanese and Zulu strength
- Added coal and gold in Japan
- War Elephant out of Knight to Cavalry upgrade path
- Upgrade path now leads Knight to Cavalry instead of Hussar
- English cities have a little darker shade of red to enhance distinction with Spanish
- Korea and Arabia will "build often" naval units
- Swapped a forest and a plain in Korea: this will make room for a city
- America, France, Germany, Netherlands, Austria, England, Russia, Spain and Portugal have been made weaker in Ancient and Medieval age: thanks to a hidden resource they will reach their full strength beginning from late Middle Ages
- Removed a horse and some oasis in Arabia, substituted with an invisible +1 commerce, +1 food resource
- Added an invisible +1 commerce resource next to Egypt, Greece, Mongolia, China, Japan, Korea, Byzantium, Carthage, Russia and Netherlands
- Added some invisible +2 commerce, +1 shields resources in the American East Coast. They will appear after Industrialization
- Dyes will appear in northern Europe only from Middle Ages
- Tobacco will appear in the old world only some turns after the discovery of America
- Cattle, sugar, wheat and wines will appear in America only some turns after the contacts with Europeans
- Horses will appear in America only at the beginning of Industrial Age
- Removed some LM tiles in North America
Still to do:
New irrigations graphics
Add a Nuclear Bomb unit available with Fission or Manhattan Project?
Block Korean passage to mainland?
Guerrilla to be modified?
Scouts wheeled with movement 2?
Tundra and desert impassable? Cheaper roads?
Also, I'd like to know if does AI ever use nukes, and if does AI begin a nuclear war without player's provocation
Update:
Changes done:
- Scouts and explorers now can be airlifted but can't pillage
- Scouts now have movement 1 to make globalization slower. They still aren't wheeled, so they can cross mountains, jungles and marshes
- Shifta, Keshik, War Chariot and Ansar Warrior now ignore desert movement cost
- Modern paratroopers no longer need rubber
- Riflemen now require saltpeter
- Updated civilopedia and corrected some entries
- Reduced 'build never' penalties for some crippled civs
- Ocean movement costs 2; all units ignore its cost except galley and dromon
- Galley and dromon don't ignore sea movement cost anymore (otherwise they could cross the Bering strait)
- Some new terrain graphics: lighter rivers and less grey mountains
- Currency cost decreased to 14; Monarchy cost decreased to 12
- Radio removed to follow Conquests last patch changes; updated civilopedia
- SS Engine and Exterior casing cost 48
- Tuned max eruption period (24000 years)
- Tuned plagues earliest start and grace period
- "No barbarians" activity: camps shouldn't appear now, but it seems that there's a bug in Conquests, because they're still appearing.
- Redistributed barbarian camps in South America. Now there are less around but in strategical position, in order to stop Incan expansion
- Removed some camps in North America, Brazil, Vietnam, Mongolia, Australia, Afghanistan and Congo
- Removed jungle tiles that obstructed passage in India, Congo, Peru and central America
- Moved some barbarian camps towards southern passage through Uralis
- Blocked northern passages through Uralis
- Removed a plateau tile that obstructed passage in Mongolia
- Blocked Ethiopian passage to the lakes
- Tuned Carthaginian, Russian, Japanese and Zulu strength
- Added coal and gold in Japan
- War Elephant out of Knight to Cavalry upgrade path
- Upgrade path now leads Knight to Cavalry instead of Hussar
- English cities have a little darker shade of red to enhance distinction with Spanish
- Korea and Arabia will "build often" naval units
- Swapped a forest and a plain in Korea: this will make room for a city
- America, France, Germany, Netherlands, Austria, England, Russia, Spain and Portugal have been made weaker in Ancient and Medieval age: thanks to a hidden resource they will reach their full strength beginning from late Middle Ages
- Removed a horse and some oasis in Arabia, substituted with an invisible +1 commerce, +1 food resource
- Added an invisible +1 commerce resource next to Egypt, Greece, Mongolia, China, Japan, Korea, Byzantium, Carthage, Russia and Netherlands
- Added some invisible +2 commerce, +1 shields resources in the American East Coast. They will appear after Industrialization
- Dyes will appear in northern Europe only from Middle Ages
- Tobacco will appear in the old world only some turns after the discovery of America
- Cattle, sugar, wheat and wines will appear in America only some turns after the contacts with Europeans
- Horses will appear in America only at the beginning of Industrial Age
- Removed some LM tiles in North America
Still to do:
New irrigations graphics
Add a Nuclear Bomb unit available with Fission or Manhattan Project?
Block Korean passage to mainland?
Guerrilla to be modified?
Scouts wheeled with movement 2?
Tundra and desert impassable? Cheaper roads?
Also, I'd like to know if does AI ever use nukes, and if does AI begin a nuclear war without player's provocation
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2003
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- 1,995
I have never seen the AI start a nuke war, but I have heard that it can happen.
Unlikely that it would, since they usually nuke the nuker. I think that if an AI with nukes looks close to losing it will nuke, but only if it is heavily engaged in a major war that is going really badly. This can happen without a player, but is probably more likely with one as the computer can rarely generate the right circumstances against another one.
The last four suggestions are good, but leave roads at same price! It is still possible to cut your way through the impassable areas, but it is a time consuming project as it should be. I would like the forest clearing to be a bit quicker, as it is ridiculously inconvenient and also ties up the computer rather heavily. If you keep it at its current length, could you up the number of shields recieved?
Unlikely that it would, since they usually nuke the nuker. I think that if an AI with nukes looks close to losing it will nuke, but only if it is heavily engaged in a major war that is going really badly. This can happen without a player, but is probably more likely with one as the computer can rarely generate the right circumstances against another one.
The last four suggestions are good, but leave roads at same price! It is still possible to cut your way through the impassable areas, but it is a time consuming project as it should be. I would like the forest clearing to be a bit quicker, as it is ridiculously inconvenient and also ties up the computer rather heavily. If you keep it at its current length, could you up the number of shields recieved?
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2003
- Messages
- 1,995
Also, there is historical precedent for the Arabians being build often naval.
Most of the major SE Asian Islands were settled by Arabs/Muslims, and they also had a rather strong presence as both traders and pirates in the area. The Barbary Coast Pirates were also Arabs (although that is the Med). But the main reason to make them BONAV is that with desert impassable it is really hard for them to get around without boats.
Carthago Deleda Est!
Most of the major SE Asian Islands were settled by Arabs/Muslims, and they also had a rather strong presence as both traders and pirates in the area. The Barbary Coast Pirates were also Arabs (although that is the Med). But the main reason to make them BONAV is that with desert impassable it is really hard for them to get around without boats.
Carthago Deleda Est!
Eddiit
King of Nothing
Im a little concerned about what making deserts impassable is going to do to the egyptians......
1 they are completely surrounded by desert and...
2 they ALWAYS build a colony near the horse in the desert to build chariots....you need to find a way to keep horses as an available resource to them...they need it.
1 they are completely surrounded by desert and...
2 they ALWAYS build a colony near the horse in the desert to build chariots....you need to find a way to keep horses as an available resource to them...they need it.
Eddiit
King of Nothing
I dont think reducing forest clearing time is good but I do agree with incresing shields gained from clearing a little bit....I dont know about the Korean thing,if they can build 2 cities on their little peninsula and get build often for navy then Im all for it...again I LOVE the guerilla for crippled civs idea and the Manhattan Project idea.
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2003
- Messages
- 1,995
Workers are unwheeled, so they are fine in the desert (so long as it is passable to wheeled, which is what I have been trying it on)
Koreans only have room for one city (as do Arabs in the current situation) but they go for mapmaking and get the ability to colonize islands right away.
Game I am playing I decided to pump up Russia a bit (in anticipation of the patch ;p) and ended up with a monster!
When either Germany or France does not get iron, they become the '*****' civ. It is really kinda annoying to see the Germans in a beautiful position, but unable to use it because they went to the better city site and not to the iron.
Koreans only have room for one city (as do Arabs in the current situation) but they go for mapmaking and get the ability to colonize islands right away.
Game I am playing I decided to pump up Russia a bit (in anticipation of the patch ;p) and ended up with a monster!
When either Germany or France does not get iron, they become the '*****' civ. It is really kinda annoying to see the Germans in a beautiful position, but unable to use it because they went to the better city site and not to the iron.
Point13
Like a ton of bricks!
Rhye, you've made it so that America gets some resources after meeting the Old World, yet you forgot to add horses to the list, horses were brought over my Spain and America has had them ever since.
Eddiit
King of Nothing
He did add horses....I dont like the idea of the arabs being unable to make more than one city.....i kinda like seeing saudi arabia with its 4 cities on it....
wooo.....from now I will have some more time because I've finished studying for my exam. I'll try to make the patch available by the end of the week.
By the way, I added horses, but their appearance is postponed for historical reasons to the other resources appearing later (Europeans didn't want to teach natives riding)
By the way, I added horses, but their appearance is postponed for historical reasons to the other resources appearing later (Europeans didn't want to teach natives riding)
Point13
Like a ton of bricks!
ahhh, and that explains why you changed the Iriquios (sp i always mispell them) to the Tomahawk warrior!
Also, Europe is crowded, have you considered putting those civs elsewhere Australia is empty, perhaps the Aborigines, with a "boomerang warrior" with +1 movement, that WOULD be neat...
Also, Europe is crowded, have you considered putting those civs elsewhere Australia is empty, perhaps the Aborigines, with a "boomerang warrior" with +1 movement, that WOULD be neat...
I think Austrialian aborigens aren't worth a Portuguese or Dutch civ. My goal is to balance the game even with very crowded areas.
But I've considered the release of an optional expansion pack that replaces Sumeria with Khmer
But I've considered the release of an optional expansion pack that replaces Sumeria with Khmer
Update:
- I've decided not to close Korean passage: they don't compete with Japan for a sea colonization but get stucked in their penisula with 2 cities.
- I've decided not to forbid desert and tundra passage because of the collateral damage it causes, including major changes to the map, in order to allow plains corridors
- New irrigation graphics is done
- Everything seems now VERY balanced. The only thing I need to check is how America behaves after industrialization.
- Now I'm dealing with the Atomic Bomb. I was thinking of giving the Manhattan Project a 7 turns period of production, ending with the discover of Satellites.
I'd like to know if usually is M.P. built before or after that discover.
Furthermore, the Atomic Bomb has a different behaviour than the other nukes. Shouldn't a nuclear weapon destroy all the units in a city??
- I have not decided about guerrilla yet
- I've decided not to close Korean passage: they don't compete with Japan for a sea colonization but get stucked in their penisula with 2 cities.
- I've decided not to forbid desert and tundra passage because of the collateral damage it causes, including major changes to the map, in order to allow plains corridors
- New irrigation graphics is done
- Everything seems now VERY balanced. The only thing I need to check is how America behaves after industrialization.
- Now I'm dealing with the Atomic Bomb. I was thinking of giving the Manhattan Project a 7 turns period of production, ending with the discover of Satellites.
I'd like to know if usually is M.P. built before or after that discover.
Furthermore, the Atomic Bomb has a different behaviour than the other nukes. Shouldn't a nuclear weapon destroy all the units in a city??
- I have not decided about guerrilla yet
Eddiit
King of Nothing
Well I like the sound of what your doing...at the danger of sounding repetitive I'm again going to push for the guerialla unit for weakened civs only....
I had in idea about guerrilla.
The problem was that the guerrilla unit is useless for crippled civs, because some of the are still stuck in early middle ages in 1900.
So, the idea is splitting the chain medieval infantry->guerrilla.
I could add a "medieval militia" available with feudalism and available for only crippled civs, with 3/3/1 + ignore mov. cost + less expensive. Instead, crippled civs can't build Medieval infantry (no changes: 4/3/1 + iron), buildable only by Europeans, America, China, Japan and Ottomans.
Then, medieval militia upgrades to guerrilla (6/6/1 + ignore mov. cost + less expensive) and medieval infantry joins upgrade chain to rifleman or to infantry. Of course, guerrilla available only for crippled, while infantry's only available for the powerfuls. Unfortunately guerrilla comes a bit late (crippled civs will hardly reach repleaceable parts), but it is where it historically should be
The only problem is now finding a nice unit. I've seen the AoK militia, but I'd prefer something better.
About the nukes, it seems that they don't kill all the people in a city all the times, right? I need some answers please! Is Manhattan Project usually built before of after the discover of satellites?
The problem was that the guerrilla unit is useless for crippled civs, because some of the are still stuck in early middle ages in 1900.
So, the idea is splitting the chain medieval infantry->guerrilla.
I could add a "medieval militia" available with feudalism and available for only crippled civs, with 3/3/1 + ignore mov. cost + less expensive. Instead, crippled civs can't build Medieval infantry (no changes: 4/3/1 + iron), buildable only by Europeans, America, China, Japan and Ottomans.
Then, medieval militia upgrades to guerrilla (6/6/1 + ignore mov. cost + less expensive) and medieval infantry joins upgrade chain to rifleman or to infantry. Of course, guerrilla available only for crippled, while infantry's only available for the powerfuls. Unfortunately guerrilla comes a bit late (crippled civs will hardly reach repleaceable parts), but it is where it historically should be
The only problem is now finding a nice unit. I've seen the AoK militia, but I'd prefer something better.
About the nukes, it seems that they don't kill all the people in a city all the times, right? I need some answers please! Is Manhattan Project usually built before of after the discover of satellites?
It would be even better (if I find it) another unit for crippled civs to complete the upgrade path: a replacement for Musket Infantry. It could be 3/4/1 with no saltpeter and ignore movement cost
Aeon221
Lord of the Cheese Helmet
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- Messages
- 1,995
This sounds very complicated.
Perhaps as an optional patch rather than a standard?
(I know that sounds weird comin from the guy who was pushin for it the hardest, but it sounds like WAYY more of a change than I expected)
Also, your experience with Korea is an odd one. In the several maps I played in that area with those changes on, Korea never built cities on its peninsula, but instead would wait, build boats, and move out.
Regardless, them having only two cities in a tiny peninsula sounds about right historically... it is not like they ever DID compete with Japan for colonies, or with China for the Eastern Siberia region.
I noticed the same problems with map restructuring that you did when putting on the impassable terrains.
So I preplaced a few roads to areas where I wanted the AI to be able to expand into. Worked very well, especially with the Russians.
I put a road through the Urals and defended it with a Barbarian tribe, a Barbarian spearman, and a barricade. It took them until about knights and medieval infantry to break through there and begin colonization of the nearer parts of Asia.
Also took the chance and added an iron in Europe near Berlin to make the Germans more competitive (and near Paris to help the French)
I think that I will do the same thing that I did with the Urals to the Pyrenees (and yes that is the proper spelling, stare at it all of french class every day) because they were historically a difficult transit as well.
I am basically trying to force the AI to act like the RL countries did. Spain and Portugal never colonized the Caspian Sea, and neither did France or the Netherlands... although I have no idea how to keep them from it.
I believe that the nukes kill all units in the city, take the pop down by half, destroy a random number of improvements, take out all improvements in the city radius (roads and mines and whatnot) and randomly pollute a few squares.
I do not know when it is usually built, but it is pretty rare to ever see it built except by a bored human who wants to end the earth.
Perhaps as an optional patch rather than a standard?
(I know that sounds weird comin from the guy who was pushin for it the hardest, but it sounds like WAYY more of a change than I expected)
Also, your experience with Korea is an odd one. In the several maps I played in that area with those changes on, Korea never built cities on its peninsula, but instead would wait, build boats, and move out.
Regardless, them having only two cities in a tiny peninsula sounds about right historically... it is not like they ever DID compete with Japan for colonies, or with China for the Eastern Siberia region.
I noticed the same problems with map restructuring that you did when putting on the impassable terrains.
So I preplaced a few roads to areas where I wanted the AI to be able to expand into. Worked very well, especially with the Russians.
I put a road through the Urals and defended it with a Barbarian tribe, a Barbarian spearman, and a barricade. It took them until about knights and medieval infantry to break through there and begin colonization of the nearer parts of Asia.
Also took the chance and added an iron in Europe near Berlin to make the Germans more competitive (and near Paris to help the French)
I think that I will do the same thing that I did with the Urals to the Pyrenees (and yes that is the proper spelling, stare at it all of french class every day) because they were historically a difficult transit as well.
I am basically trying to force the AI to act like the RL countries did. Spain and Portugal never colonized the Caspian Sea, and neither did France or the Netherlands... although I have no idea how to keep them from it.
I believe that the nukes kill all units in the city, take the pop down by half, destroy a random number of improvements, take out all improvements in the city radius (roads and mines and whatnot) and randomly pollute a few squares.
I do not know when it is usually built, but it is pretty rare to ever see it built except by a bored human who wants to end the earth.
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