Rhye's of Civilization - the fastest loading mod Expanded

[Rhye]

After reading some more articles on amphibious warfare, it seems clear that there hasn't been any maritime corp until XVII Century. The concept of amph. warf. existed since ancient times, but it wasn't successful until WWII.

Now, what I propose is the same I proposed last time, but without any change to the swordsman. This means:

warrior->spearman (consider that it comes later than original tech tree) -> pikeman etc...
--nothing-->swordsman (NOT amphibious)->colonial infantry (5/2/1,amph.)->marine(amph.)
--nothing-->urban militia (consider that it is low cost)->partisan->guerrilla

As you can see I keep the upgrade line but don't give swordsmen that advantage. The Col. Inf. also fills the empty role of an offensive foot unit in the gunpowder era, often requested.

 

[Asclepius]

I'm afraid the only thing that can be imposed is to require a buillding, not to require that there ISN'T a building. I already foresee harbors+colonial harbors in big cities in Europe, and nothing in the colonies

Oh, booo, hooo! Looks like I'm doomed along with the colonies

We really need something to encourage fast colony building (or ANY colony building in some games). Is there no way you could put a few really valuable luxuries only in the Americas and Australia to make colonies essential? It isn't really even worth going for the rubber anymore as it isn't so important.

 

[Blasphemous]

Khift, you're right in some sense, and I thank you for your effort, but how can I throw away all the work I did until now? I spent several days in thinking how to make that archers/spearmen inversion of the stats work, and how to make the lines cohetent with 2 different kinds of cavalry cohexisting, together with camels and elephants

Rhye, you must realize that to reach the arrangement Khift describes we had to go through the arrangement that you put together. Your work was not in vain, and frankly, Khift is right in the changes that he suggests. In your setup the biggest inaccuracies are fixed, with offensive spearmen (and they are offensive in their age, even with 2 def) and defensive archers. In Khift's setup some of the remaining inaccuracies are fixed. Most of them really.

About colonies, you can have the Colonial Harbor flagged to replace any other imp with that flag (like power plants). The European cities will build factories and power plants not too long later, but the colonies will keep the colonial harbour till they're strong enough to build a factory when it won't matter. There still is the problem of this powering up the European coasts, but it's a start. We can try to find a better solution based on this one. For instance, an imp can be added with industrialization or even mercantilism that also has said flag, gives 25% production, and costs more than it's worth (so the colonies will have a hard time building it). Don't know how to call it but it should represent small businesses and places where people work in jobs (as opposed to just working and producing stuff and living off the money.) It will replace the colonial harbor pretty early, and really it's okay for coastal cities in the colonial eras to have a bit of a production boost. It will mean we see more ships and more naval combat.

 

[Rhye]

Instead of classifying units into lines considering what they used (Spearman -> Pikeman, Archer -> Crossbowman) perhaps these units should be classified into how they fought?

Well in my point of view the lines that now are in RoX are a compromise between what they used and how they fought.

One thing that I honestly can't stand in Civ3 (RoC included) is how heavily you have to rely on shock units. (Horsemen, Knights, Cavalry, Tanks, Modern Armor.) This really sickens me - where is the offensive infantry?

No problem here - I agree and I'll increase ALL the cavalry cost: stacks of cavalry will be much less likely to be seen. But please don't touch Lancers, Horse Archers etc.!

 

[Blasphemous]

Hold yer horses, Rhye (pun not intended). iirc, the AI actually tends to build high-cost units more often. It uses cost to asses how powerful the unit it. There needs to be a better incentive to build infantry, or the AI will end up tying up all of its production with high-cost shock troops which will weaken it alot.

 

[Rhye]

wait a minute: are yu sure of this (that AI has more incentive to build high cost)? Does this apply to techs cost too?

btw I don't see the pun

 

[Aeon221]

Cottage Industry would work for the name of a low cost production 'building' for that era, or at least give you a start with what to research. It refers to the outsourcing of the production of various goods (usu. textiles) to nearby small landowners and sharecroppers in the 17th and 18th centuries. Basically it meant asking the peasants to do some stuff for the dudes in the town and was an essential bit of European industrial development.

*****

warrior->spearman (consider that it comes later than original tech tree) -> pikeman etc...
--nothing-->swordsman (NOT amphibious)->colonial infantry (5/2/1,amph.)->marine(amph.)
--nothing-->urban militia (consider that it is low cost)->partisan->guerrilla

This is superb. Also, its not like spearmen were not offensive units; usually they were the primary element of ancient mediterranean (and even European you could ALMOST say) armies. Cavalry was the tiny shock element that harassed the enemy flanks, breaking the discipline enough for the primary attack to succeed.

Just had a thought: why not give cavalry a low bombardment and really lower its attack? That way you represent the charge while still forcing the infantry to be the kill unit... I know its not feasible, but at least I liked it while I was writing it. ;p

Archers were skirmishers and defenders, although they usually require infantry support to remain effective. Having them act as defenders makes sense as it is highly unlikely that they would engage successfully. I like how Rhye worked things out and I think that this latest change is plenty for now, barring some great revelation! ;p

 

[Blasphemous]

wait a minute: are yu sure of this (that AI has more incentive to build high cost)? Does this apply to techs cost too?

btw I don't see the pun

I don't think it applies to techs, and with techs it doesn't matter cause you only buy each tech once and you have to get them all. Currently the techs are researched in a pretty good order, no need to change that. And no, I'm not sure about it, but I recall it being said somewhere here in CFC.
And the pun was that I said "hold yer horses" in regard to changes you wanted to make to cavalry. =P

Aeon, Cottage Industry is exactly the kind of thing I meant, thanks.

I'm gonna go see if I can work out a revision of Khift and Rhye's systems so both sides are happier. Should be posted within fifteen minutes.

 

[Blasphemous]

All-purpose infantry:
Warrior 1.1.1 -> Spearman 2.2.1 -> Pikeman 3.3.1 -> Fusilier 5.5.1 -> Infantry 7.10.1 -> Mechanized Infantry 14.14.2
(Nothing) -> Mobile Infantry 8.8.2 -> Mech Inf
These units are used both for attacking and for holding ground until defensive infantry units can come in and defend the place. Mobile infantry is intended to support Infantry in the world war era, using its speed and attack to push the front while Infantry and Machinegunners hold it.

Defensive infantry:
Archer 1.2.1 (2.0.1) -> Crossbowman 1.3.1 (4.0.1) -> Musketman 2.4.1 (6.0.1) -> Rifleman 4.6.1 (8.0.1) -> Machinegunner 4.10.1 (10.0.1) -> Modern Infantry 10.16.2 + Stealth Attack + Pardrop range 3
Mostly used to defend cities and other positions. Almost all units have defensive bombard. Some can also be used for limited offense, like the Rifleman and the Modern Infantry. Modern infantry is both intended to hold strategic positions and to harm and destroy specific targets globally. They have 2 movement points because they rarely ever march - they usually use rapid air and land transports to get from place to place. This is also why they have paradrop to a short range. They can be paradropped out of an outpost to intercept an incoming enemy force before it can do lasting damage.

Guerilla:
Swordsman 2.1.1 -> Partisan 4.4.1 -> Guerilla 5.8.1 (8.1.2) + All as roads
(Nothing) -> TOW Infantry 6.12.1 (12.0.1)
Cheap units used to put a dent in the enemies' defenses for main force of all-purpose infantry to take out. Not very capable of holding ground, but very capable of annoying the enemy and capturing workers. The modern Guerilla has low attack but a solid offensive bombard that can be used to harass nearby units.

Shock troops:
Chariot 2.1.2 -> Horseman 3.1.2 -> Horse Archer 3.2.2 (2.0.1) -> Knight 4.3.2 -> Cavalry 6.3.3 + Blitz
(Nothing) -> Tank 16.8.2 + Blitz -> MBT 20.14.3 + Blitz
Expensive, fast, and powerful units used to knock out the toughest defenders so that the main force can do its job.

Marines:
(Nothing) -> (Berserk 5.2.1 ->) Marine Infantry 8.4.1 -> Marine 12.6.1 | (All have amphib obviously.)
Marine infantry is the WWII marine of the sort that stormed the beaches of Normandy. Basically just infantry trained in amphbious assault. It should be available with some WWII tech and upgrade soon after to the modern Marine which is better trained, better equipped, and more capable of holding ground for long enough that better defenders can come in and make sure the Marines' work wasn't in vain.


The setup probably requires some tweaking, but I feel I combined both setups pretty well. It makes alot of sense in this setup that I suggested.


EDIT: It's important to see which units are contemporary with which units. So here are the groups that should end up interacting. (Also added TOW Infantry. =X)

Warrior
Spearman, Chariot, Archer
Spearman, Swordsman, Horseman, Archer
Spearman, Swordsman, Horse Archer, Archer
Pikeman, Knight, Crossbowman, Berserk
Pikeman, Musketman, Knight
Fusilier, Cavalry, Musketman, Partisan
Fusilier, Cavalry, Partisan, Rifleman
Infantry, Machinegunner, Mobile Infantry (WWI)
Infantry, Machinegunner, Mobile Infantry, Tank, Marine Infantry, Guerilla (WWII and the beginning of true combined arms)
Mechanized Infantry, Modern Infantry, MBT, Marine, Guerilla, TOW Infantry, (Modern times and the ultimate realization of combined arms)

This helps clarify how the units will interact. I probably misplaced some of the things (like the Partisan, the proper location of which I didn't really remember.)

 

[Rhye]

there's something I like and something I don't.
I like the idea of making something upgradeablt to machinegunner. However historical accuracy is not easy to mantain when we touch fusiliers (line infantry) and riflemen (skirmishers)
I don't like the single cavalry line (that also deletes lancers)
And I'd prefer to mantain the swordsman-to-marine line (with the Colonial Infantry in between)

 

[Rhye]

blasphemous, can you try to find that post revealing AI building priorities?

 

[Blasphemous]

1. Yes, Fusiliers and Riflemen were one of my biggest dilemmas. However, I decided to just assign them each to one line and get it over with. In this case historical accuracy must be sacrificed in the name of gameplay and balance.
2. I know you object to the cavalry thing but I really think it's the best solution. But if you insist on two cavalry lines, they should both still be under shock troops and should serve the very same purpouse. Really, their use is the same in the scale of the game and so I don't think there should be a split.
3. So swordsman can upgrade to colonial infantry and from there to marine infantry. That's not a huge issue for me. If you do that, the new marine line would be:
(Nothing) -> Swordsman 2.1.1 -> (Berserk 5.2.1 ->) Colonial Infantry 5.3.1 -> Marine Infantry 8.4.1 -> Marine 12.6.1
with all but Swordsman having amphib.

I think ultimately the issues should be decided by each of us proposing one setup, and then all of the devteam voting on it. So far we have Rhye's setup which is the one currently in the Xpack, we have Khift's and we have mine. If anyone else has a suggestion they should make it.

 

[Blasphemous]

blasphemous, can you try to find that post revealing AI building priorities?

I highly doubt it. I only vaguely remember this.
But this would be a good place to start. It's a very long thread and the thing about unit costs may be in a thread linked to from there or may not be there at all. I'm not prepared to read through the whole thing for a second time (last time took me several hours), if some brave soul is, they're welcome to try. It's an excellent read really, slightly outdated but has some great food for the thought of anyone involved in modding.

 

[Procrastinator]

In the suggested thread, this post says something about it.

Nothing else though, that I could see.

 

[Rhye]

many thanks, procrastinator.
The things they say is cohent with the results of my tests, which demostrate that Blasphemous statement is false, fortunately

With some test it's clear that AI prefers to build a cheaper unit in case the price of the other is too high. So we can guide AI to build what we want raising or lowering the treshold.

 

[Aeon221]

I think that makes sense, simply because the AI needs some way to decide. I like Rhye's tree the best in terms of units mostly because it keeps the most variety. I notice no one has anything to say about ships! ;p

Certainly the earliest marine should be Colonial; nothing before that! Also, Blas I noticed that in your stl post you put swords as 2.1.1 units... that would be extremely worthless, considering

Def Bonus for Attack From Sea, Def Bonus for Fortify, Def bombard, and Possible Def bonus city wall/city size and terrain Def bonus (if city is on a hill).

EVEN against a Def 1 unit this unit would be almost certain of losing... which may be the point, now that I think of it ;p

Its why C3C standard doesnt bother with marines until naval bombard is really strong! I would say that the swordsman would have to remain a 3.1.1, because his other ability will hardly be useful.

Rhye, sending Excel thing now... dont think you will find it very useful, still just Infantry, but I mailed my app today so I have plenty of time to finish the rest of the stuff! R^2 values tell you how well the model fits the line. I think there are other patterns, but until I get it all into my calculator there is no way to plot the residuals. Cheers!

 

[Blasphemous]

Awesome!
Rhye, can you propose a revised version of my proposal (or Khift's) that you would agree to if the majority of the devteam supports?

 

[Blasphemous]

I think that makes sense, simply because the AI needs some way to decide. I like Rhye's tree the best in terms of units mostly because it keeps the most variety. I notice no one has anything to say about ships! ;p

Certainly the earliest marine should be Colonial; nothing before that! Also, Blas I noticed that in your stl post you put swords as 2.1.1 units... that would be extremely worthless, considering

Def Bonus for Attack From Sea, Def Bonus for Fortify, Def bombard, and Possible Def bonus city wall/city size and terrain Def bonus (if city is on a hill).

EVEN against a Def 1 unit this unit would be almost certain of losing... which may be the point, now that I think of it ;p

Its why C3C standard doesnt bother with marines until naval bombard is really strong! I would say that the swordsman would have to remain a 3.1.1, because his other ability will hardly be useful.

Actually, I don't want Swordsmen to have amphibious attack. I want them to be very cheap attack units (like the Archer in standard civ) for underdogs to put up a fight with. Later they can upgrade to Colonial Marine or to some medieval unit for all I care. =P

 

[Rhye]

I have modified Aeon's sheet, making a table that calcuates with a formula an approximate usefulness of the unit.

It isn't perfect, because there are many more factors, but it confirmed me that msuketman was too expensive and some types of mounted and armoured units were too cheap.

 

[Khift]

I like your rendition, Blas. Only two things I would change on it, though: it needs a late ancient age all purpose infantry. Having 2.2.1 spearmen probably wouldn't cut it, and, in my mind's eye, spearmen represent the warriors of early antiquity - Greece, Persia, mesopotamia, and Egypt. Then came along a more organized, better trained, and better equipped steel army used by the Hittites and Romans. Before, this was represented by the swordsman, although they hardly looked like it, but in your line it is lacking. Also, could Pikemen represent a fighting force that appears later in the medieval age? Like, say, 1200-1600, after the age of the knight had passed and during the Renaissance. Probably appear near invention, and would need a little better stats.

To Rhye: I wouldn't say this is throwing away your hard work at all. This is just an extension of your work - I took it and did what I could to make it seem more viable in my eyes hoping it would work out better for the mod, and then Blas did the same for my idea.

To Aeon: Of course there is nothing to say about ships; they're fine as is! Well, from what I can tell.

About the amphibious units: I just threw them in to my plan; I have no emotional stock in them. In light of the pages linked to by Rhye and the arguments of Aeon, I agree that the Colonial Marine should be the first amphibious unit.